ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[Newnan_Eric]

Originally Posted by Rail Claimore

Gwinnett will be fine with commuter rail, that is if the state ever gets that one going. With the exception of the GA400 corridor (because there's no freight track I'm aware of near there), MARTA rail doesn't need to be extended to all these places outside the Perimeter. Focus on expansion and increased service within its current coverage area.

Exactly right. If you look at the maps at the beginning of this thread, you'll notice that the Doraville MARTA line parallels the Gainsville Commuter Rail line (at least as far as Doraville). The costs of building the MARTA heavy rail line out into Gwinnett would be insane compared to upgrading existing rail lines adding a few platforms and buying a few extra commuter rail cars.

If the service becomes popular enough you can always upgrade service to a more frequent service using DMU's (Diesel Multiple Units).

MARTA rail should only really extend up GA 400, as there is no existing rail line up that corridor. The only other place I've thought of that could make sense is Westward to Six Flags with a stop at Fulton Industrial. The Six Flags lot could double as park-n-ride parking. And, it would provide access for thos that want to visit Six Flags, but want to use transit.

Otherwise, MARTA rail should concentrate on in-town. But I don't think we'll see any expansion of the heavy-rail system. The best bets are the Peachtree Streetcar and the Beltline.

The Citizen's for Progressive Transit do make a complelling argument for a new MARTA station near MARTA's Armour Yard: The Beltline cound pass through there instead of making an in-efficient jog up to Lindbergh, exisiting rail lines pass through there and a new station would be a more efficient place for AMTRAK's New Orleans - Washingto DC line to stop. The Northeastern commuter lines (Athens & Gainsville) could stop there, and an Emory University DMU line could stop there. There isn't all that much to want to see at that actual location, but it'd be a heck of a transfer station. Maybe a TOD (Transit Oriented Development) could be proposed there.

[Chris Creech]

MARTA staff alters stance on Beltline rail

By PAUL DONSKY
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 12/11/06

Buses may not be the ticket on Atlanta's Beltline after all.

MARTA staff is recommending that rail cars roll on the planned 22-mile transit loop, even though a bus-based transit system would be at least one-third cheaper to build.

The MARTA board of directors is expected to discuss the issue today, with a final decision coming in January. The recommendation is an about-face for MARTA, which four months ago released a preliminary analysis favoring buses over rail, primarily because of cost.

A streetcar system would cost up to $838 million, MARTA officials said, compared to $571 million for bus rapid transit, a hybrid system that uses rail-like stations and buses designed to resemble rail cars.

Rail vehicles are significantly more expensive than buses, and train systems require extensive engineering, such as the installation of overhead electricity cables.

But rail emerged as the overwhelming favorite during a series of public meetings last summer. Rail vehicles, such as streetcars, were seen as providing a cleaner, more charming way to move people about the Beltline than buses, which emit pollutants and tend to be noisy.

MARTA board chairman Ed Wall said rail is worth the extra investment.

"It's quaint, people like it, they feel better about taking public transportation," he said.

The city of Atlanta and Beltline leaders have come out in favor of a rail transit system as well, Wall said.

At a MARTA board meeting last week, several people urged the transit system to avoid the cheapest alternative and go with rail, which they said better fits with the parks and trails planned along the route.

"A rail line drawing its power from an overhead trolley wire is quiet and clean, much more compatible with the park environment," said Jim Dexter, vice president of the Georgia Association of Railroad Passengers.

"A unique window of opportunity is opening," he told the board. "If it's done with care, the Beltline could become a signature accomplishment for Atlanta, identifying the city much as the Arch identifies St. Louis, Central Park identifies New York and cable cars identify San Francisco.

"Let's not do this cheap. Let's do it right."

MARTA staff also is recommending that transit be built along the entire 22-mile length of the Beltline, rejecting cheaper alternatives that would have built a three-quarters loop that avoids an active freight rail corridor in northwest Atlanta.

MARTA staff isn't specifying what kind of rail vehicle should be used — light rail or the slightly smaller, more nimble modern streetcar. The Beltline as now configured has many tight turns that probably would rule out light rail, but MARTA officials said the route could change as the planning process continues.

The MARTA board's decision is part of an effort to secure federal grants to cover about half the cost of the Beltline transit system's cost. The remainder would come from property taxes on new development along the Beltline that have been earmarked to pay for the planned loop of trails, transit and parks.

But federal money may be a longshot. The grant process is competitive and favors big transit projects that relieve congestion. The Beltline is unusual: It's designed to alleviate future traffic problems by attracting development that would otherwise go to already crowded areas.

Beltline officials have said a rail line can be built without federal money, though the project might need to be scaled down to fit the budget. It's also possible that Washington will help pay for one leg of the transit loop.

But don't expect any vehicles to be rolling on the Beltline soon. Indeed, the massive project will have to be built in stages, like MARTA's rail system, a process that could take up to 25 years. The first stretch may not be complete for a decade.

[Curious Atlantan]

Two encouraging transportation-related articles from today's AJC:

"MARTA staff is recommending that rail cars roll on the planned 22-mile transit loop, even though a bus-based transit system would be at least one-third cheaper to build."

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...1metmarta.html

and,

"While road promoters are pushing ideas for building double deck highways or tunnels, or as they explore widening the interstates to as many as 23 lanes, a group of Georgia Tech students has come up with a completely different vision.
The students want to do away with the Downtown Connector, where I-75 and I-85 merge into a superhighway going through the central city."

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...metsaport.html

[whoDean]

Hmm, interesting idea. I suppose I-285 would have to really be beefed up all the way around and how would the commuters get into the city every day?

[Fiorenza]

It's April Fools Day come early.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by Chris Creech

But don't expect any vehicles to be rolling on the Beltline soon. Indeed, the massive project will have to be built in stages, like MARTA's rail system, a process that could take up to 25 years. The first stretch may not be complete for a decade.

Gee, I wonder if I'll get to ride on the Beltline during my lifetime. It frankly doesn't sound promising.

[AubieTurtle]

The MARTA Board has officially approved the staff recommendation of using rail technology and the full circle route that includes the Inman Park station.

[AubieTurtle]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Gee, I wonder if I'll get to ride on the Beltline during my lifetime. It frankly doesn't sound promising.

If we would just turn it into a road that allows cars with a single occupant, GDOT could have it ready in two years. But since we're going with a commie godless transit system, especially one on rails, we must spend some time in purgetory to reflect on our sins.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by AubieTurtle

If we would just turn it into a road that allows cars with a single occupant, GDOT could have it ready in two years. But since we're going with a commie godless transit system, especially one on rails, we must spend some time in purgetory to reflect on our sins.

Heh, I think you're right! Maybe I can pay somebody to take my ashes for a spin when the Beltline opens in the year 2032.

It's utterly amazing to me that 100 years ago they laid streetcar lines all over creation in a matter of months, and now they saying it will take a quarter of a century to get a little 22 mile loop going, even though they already have the railbeds.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Curious Atlantan

Two encouraging transportation-related articles from today's AJC:

"MARTA staff is recommending that rail cars roll on the planned 22-mile transit loop, even though a bus-based transit system would be at least one-third cheaper to build."

http://www.ajc.com/news/content/metr...1metmarta.html

and,

"While road promoters are pushing ideas for building double deck highways or tunnels, or as they explore widening the interstates to as many as 23 lanes, a group of Georgia Tech students has come up with a completely different vision.
The students want to do away with the Downtown Connector, where I-75 and I-85 merge into a superhighway going through the central city."

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/...metsaport.html

Sorry, you can't get rid of the connector. People actually need to travel from the north side of the city to the southern suburbs and the connector is the only reasonable way to do it. If everyone was trying to get to the center of the city, that would be one thing, but that isn't the case so sans a connector, the city would suffer greatly.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Sorry, you can't get rid of the connector. People actually need to travel from the north side of the city to the southern suburbs and the connector is the only reasonable way to do it. If everyone was trying to get to the center of the city, that would be one thing, but that isn't the case so sans a connector, the city would suffer greatly.

It's just a wild thinking. Any minor changes in Atlanta aren't easy to be accepted, let it alone the major alteration of the city highway. It's not realistic in my opinion.

[16click]

Then the only option is to cover it up with parks or a water feature like many have been saying for some time; sort of like Boston's Big Dig. It may be possible to have above ground streets or a boulevard like the tech student's plan. I agree that you just can't rip up the connector.

[dante2308]

I'd rather the money be spent on mass transit than covering up a highway. The city can and is cutting across it just fine. The 5th-street project, while pretty, didn't change much and especially not much for the dollar. Believe it or not, people liked to be able to see downtown from that bridge and the highway underneath. You'd see a lot of people look over and marvel at it as they crossed on foot. For better or for worse, the highway isn't as much as an eyesore as people would have you believe.

[AubieTurtle]

Dante, you're kidding right? Just because you may be in love with pavement doesn't mean that everyone else does. Do you know what the Fifth Street crossing looked like before or why it was built? It wasn't to make it pretty, it was to unify the two parts of Tech's campus. As side effect of that is that we ended up with a bridge with trees on it. Don't make the mistake of thinking GDOT was hijacked by the Sierra Club. The old Fifth Street entrance to Georgia Tech was virtually unknown, even some students who went there for four years had never used it.

The city can and is cutting across it just fine? Yeah, spoke like a true automobile first snob. Only those in cars get from one side of the connector to the other easily, and even they're having problems with the few crossings being clogged because the car is the only attractive option. Imagine if all those students going to Tech Square decided to drive instead of walk (which would be likely given the terrible experience of the walk just a couple of years ago).

Just because you don't want to walk anywhere doesn't make the creation of a pedestrian environment for the Tech campus a waste of money.

[dante2308]

So many assumptions, so little time. I'm a Georgia tech student first off. I don't own a car. I walk any and everywhere. The bridge always had a huge number of pedestrians even during construction (I had Computer Science right behind Barnes and Noble so I know that literally hundreds cross that bridge between classes). The "park" section of the bridge is utterly useless really and wasn't needed to create a pedestrian environment. I don't love pavement, but I do love the city, though both are obscured on that bridge. I don't think that bridge was ever efficient for cars or should be. Lastly, the city's fabric is changing with or without projects like 5th Street. Atlantic Station, for example, was a big step for the progress of "Midtown West" as Allen Plaza will help bring Downtown and Midtown together.

BTW, out of towers and Tech students do like the connector, especially at night. Being one of the largest engineering accomplishments for many miles around, it does deserve some respect.

Geez, what a response, so venomous.

[AubieTurtle]

Originally Posted by dante2308

So many assumptions, so little time. I'm a Georgia tech student first off. I don't own a car. I walk any and everywhere. The bridge always had a huge number of pedestrians even during construction (I had Computer Science right behind Barnes and Noble so I know that literally hundreds cross that bridge between classes). The "park" section of the bridge is utterly useless really and wasn't needed to create a pedestrian environment. I don't love pavement, but I do love the city, though both are obscured on that bridge. I don't think that bridge was ever efficient for cars or should be. Lastly, the city's fabric is changing with or without projects like 5th Street. Atlantic Station, for example, was a big step for the progress of "Midtown West" as Allen Plaza will help bring Downtown and Midtown together.

BTW, out of towers and Tech students do like the connector, especially at night. Being one of the largest engineering accomplishments for many miles around, it does deserve some respect.

Geez, what a response, so venomous.

Can you show me where you interviewed the whole city to base your ASSUMPTION that more people than most would expect love the connector and dislike the new bridge? Don't try to make your personal views to those of the majority if you don't want to be called on it and have assumptions placed on you!

Oh wait, I forgot, you are the whole city, the rest of us just live here with your gracious permission. Get real dude... you are not the world. You are entitled to your opinion but stop trying to pass it off as the majority opinion. Don't claim to speak for "people" when you are speaking for yourself.

[dante2308]

My, my. I know how long you have surfed these forums and I don't want to start confrontational arguments with anyone anyway so I wont.

For the record, I am a Tech student so that means that I know other Tech students. I am from out of town so that means I know other people who are from out of town. I don't assume all of either group feels one particular way, but it doesn't mean that I am not allowed to express my opinion either. I didn't make anything up of course, most of the people I live around and visit me take a moment to admire the skyline view when we cross the bridge and some of them even take pictures. I never used the word "majority" and I didn't make any assumptions. I am not the world and I also don't need to be to have an opinion on the bridge I've watched grow right outside my window for quite some time.

I also said that rather than spending the millions or billions it would take to cover the entire highway, the money should first be spent on mass transit. A lot of people assume that the 5th Street project was what everyone wanted, and I was just bringing up the point that it wasn't. I know a couple pro-new urban city planning majors even who don't like it.

I find it interesting that you didn't even apologize for making baseless accusatory assumptions and venomous statements, but I don't think it would serve anyone's interests to do the same back at you. I'm interested in logical arguments where different points of view are celebrated. I'm not a car-loving suburbanite advocating that pedestrians be obliterated. I'm quite the opposite and I think you'll find that we have much in common.

[RobMidtowner]

I was a Tech student 2 years ago when Tech Square was built...I walked across the bridge to classes/bookstore etc. before the bridge was built and I walk across the new bridge now for games/meeting friends etc. I find it much more pleasant and inviting now than before because it's quieter and less polluted. Whether or not the money could've been spent elsewhere, I think it's hard to deny that it's a great addition to an already beautiful campus.

As for covering the entire connector, I think it would benefit the city greatly but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe a few sections here or there but I don't see the entire thing covered for at least 20-30 years, if at all, just because there are a lot of other necessary transportation projects that it would have to compete with.

[fisp]

i'm also from tech, and i am definitely happy not to see the connector whenever possible. it's ugly, it smells of exhaust and it makes all of the land immediately next to it mostly undesirable. my vote is to flood the connector. it would create the geographic water feature that atlanta is missing... the rise in property value along the new waterfront could be tapped to pay for the cost of the project... we're going to have traffic anyway, might as well move it somewhere else

[Chris Creech]

Also, don't forget if you cover over parts of the connector, that you instantly transform the area about a block on either side from marginal land uses and value, to suddenly highly desireable, high tax income properties.

No one wants to build an office or especially a condo tower that is right on the connector, but if they could build on the same site and be looking over over an open plaza and park, with the great view - that's a whole different thing.

As much as the Big Dig in Boston gets blasted (deservedly) for cost overruns and corruption, it did very much create a lively redevelopment zone and bring pedestrian and streetlife back to those areas.