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  #3041  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 4:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I'm just blown-away that the clock portion isn't stone (sounds like it's cast-iron?). Does anyone know what color it was historically? All the old photos/postcards I'm finding seem to indicate that it was darker.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9461?size=_original (larger)

The structure from the clock up is metal. I believe that it is mainly iron. That's certainly true of the supporting structure, but I'm guessing that some of the cladding might be copper? Growing up, it had a greenish patina, IIRC. The "ice cream cone" contrast was jarring to those who never saw its original state. It had gotten so dirty all over by my childhood that it looked all of a piece.
     
     
  #3042  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
The structure from the clock up is metal. I believe that it is mainly iron. That's certainly true of the supporting structure, but I'm guessing that some of the cladding might be copper? Growing up, it had a greenish patina, IIRC. The "ice cream cone" contrast was jarring to those who never saw its original state. It had gotten so dirty all over by my childhood that it looked all of a piece.
So it had a similar color to the Memorial Hall dome? I think I'd prefer that; probably would look more natural. Anyway, thanks for the background!
     
     
  #3043  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2018, 7:29 PM
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Older color pictures of City Hall aren't that easily found. My memories in the 70s and 80s was that the building was dirty more than any sense that the iron tower was colored differently. Here's some pictures from Naked Philly:

http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...filthier-times
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  #3044  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2018, 3:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I'm just blown-away that the clock portion isn't stone (sounds like it's cast-iron?). Does anyone know what color it was historically? All the old photos/postcards I'm finding seem to indicate that it was darker.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/9461?size=_original (larger)

I'm feeling old in as much as I still my "Free Billy" tee shirt. The tower was wrapped in scaffolding like forever, maybe back in the 90's. The problems were money and knowledge; during the restoration 'they' had to write the book. I'm pretty sure the metal is mostly cast iron. Parts of it had to be replaced during the restoration. The story goes, either A. stone would have cost too much hence the iron, or B. stone would have weighted too much, hence the iron, but I'm not that old that I know from being there! But based on the concept that the tower was designed to be all stone, the idea was the first layers of paint tried to match the color of the stone. I remember when I first moved to Philly in the mid 70's the metal section was dark and the tower had rust running down it in many spots. And yes I very clearly remember the engineers running the job decided on a epoxy style paint, the manufacture had 3 stock colors and grey was picked. Later the Inky did an article where they tracked down the manufacture, who claimed he had no idea what the paint was going to be used for, and also claimed that for such an national significant job they would have been thrilled to make a special color. The enclosed link says otherwise.
http://www.tnemec.com/project/view/?j=337

To give you some idea how important and huge our City Hall is: (the bestest building in the City!)
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/a...gn/25hall.html
     
     
  #3045  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2018, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
Later the Inky did an article where they tracked down the manufacture, who claimed he had no idea what the paint was going to be used for, and also claimed that for such an national significant job they would have been thrilled to make a special color. The enclosed link says otherwise.
http://www.tnemec.com/project/view/?j=337
How does that link say otherwise?
     
     
  #3046  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2018, 4:37 PM
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I like the bright white of the city hall tower. I wish any matching could go the other way, but I suppose that is not really possible and any attempt to match would have to paint the metal a color to mimic the bulk of the structure.

W is really taking shape now!
     
     
  #3047  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
Older color pictures of City Hall aren't that easily found. My memories in the 70s and 80s was that the building was dirty more than any sense that the iron tower was colored differently. Here's some pictures from Naked Philly:

http://www.ocfrealty.com/naked-phill...filthier-times

Often I talk about wanting to seen tall buildings; really talk modern buildings that are like 1200' tall. Even though I of course understand that isn't usually practical due to who building them and the entire requirements of a company and such; maybe now some of my friends here who are younger can see why when you look at these photos. Much of my life in Philadelphia I had to deal with this; dirty, concrete buildings that look like they were all build on the command of Stalin. It was a very different time then and as you can see a different look. Philly wasn't just gritty due to its attitude; no it was literally gritty; I can still smell the coal those people use to drop off for heat in the winter time; that dirty coal; it was fun but it was pretty .... well different.

Now Philly looks so much nicer; oh my goodness; so much nicer; so much more cosmopolitan.
     
     
  #3048  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
Often I talk about wanting to seen tall buildings; really talk modern buildings that are like 1200' tall. Even though I of course understand that isn't usually practical due to who building them and the entire requirements of a company and such; maybe now some of my friends here who are younger can see why when you look at these photos. Much of my life in Philadelphia I had to deal with this; dirty, concrete buildings that look like they were all build on the command of Stalin. It was a very different time then and as you can see a different look. Philly wasn't just gritty due to its attitude; no it was literally gritty; I can still smell the coal those people use to drop off for heat in the winter time; that dirty coal; it was fun but it was pretty .... well different.

Now Philly looks so much nicer; oh my goodness; so much nicer; so much more cosmopolitan.
I was born in the late 90's, so I never saw Philly that way. My parents have told me numerous times about how bad Center City was in the 70's and 80's. My Dad remarks about how much better Philly is now every time we go there. My Mom still doesn't use SEPTA, aside from the trains. My 91-year old Uncle recently recalled a time when there were adult bookstores across from Independence Hall. I really think the lack of skyscrapers exceeding City Hall really hurt Philly's skyline long term.

I remember at the recent Louis Kahn exhibit, they had renderings of his 600 footer that was supposed to be built in the 50's at 13th and Market. It was shot down by Kevin Bacon's father, of all people. Just imagine if a super-innovative skyscraper had reached that height in Philly in the 50's...
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  #3049  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 3:08 PM
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Center City was in bad shape in the 70s and early 80s. I think anyone who says differently is being charitable or creating some fondness in hindsight. But as someone said before, it never totally collapsed. The cultural and historical core remained and has now regained much of its former glory. We have entered a new Golden Age!
     
     
  #3050  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eixample View Post
How does that link say otherwise?
from the linked article " “We had to go through a pretty extensive process for the off-white color to be approved,” according to Tnemec coating consultant Pat Murphy". If this quote is true then the story that the engineers just called and picked one out of 3 stock colors without any/much contact with the manufactures doesn't sound so strong anymore. But it still unfortunately doesn't answer all the questions, like were they actually trying to match the color of the stone? So, the mystery continues. And we need some mysteries to keep us sharp, like will anything even be built at the Disney hole site!
     
     
  #3051  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 8:19 PM
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  #3052  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2018, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
from the linked article " “We had to go through a pretty extensive process for the off-white color to be approved,” according to Tnemec coating consultant Pat Murphy". If this quote is true then the story that the engineers just called and picked one out of 3 stock colors without any/much contact with the manufactures doesn't sound so strong anymore. But it still unfortunately doesn't answer all the questions, like were they actually trying to match the color of the stone? So, the mystery continues. And we need some mysteries to keep us sharp, like will anything even be built at the Disney hole site!
I get what your point now
     
     
  #3053  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 1:17 AM
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Originally Posted by City Wide View Post
I'm feeling old in as much as I still my "Free Billy" tee shirt. The tower was wrapped in scaffolding like forever, maybe back in the 90's. The problems were money and knowledge; during the restoration 'they' had to write the book. I'm pretty sure the metal is mostly cast iron. Parts of it had to be replaced during the restoration. The story goes, either A. stone would have cost too much hence the iron, or B. stone would have weighted too much, hence the iron, but I'm not that old that I know from being there! But based on the concept that the tower was designed to be all stone, the idea was the first layers of paint tried to match the color of the stone. I remember when I first moved to Philly in the mid 70's the metal section was dark and the tower had rust running down it in many spots. And yes I very clearly remember the engineers running the job decided on a epoxy style paint, the manufacture had 3 stock colors and grey was picked. Later the Inky did an article where they tracked down the manufacture, who claimed he had no idea what the paint was going to be used for, and also claimed that for such an national significant job they would have been thrilled to make a special color. The enclosed link says otherwise.
http://www.tnemec.com/project/view/?j=337

To give you some idea how important and huge our City Hall is: (the bestest building in the City!)
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/a...gn/25hall.html
I moved into the (then) brand new One Franklin Town Apartment Building in 1989. I was in the 20th floor, eastern side, so I had a front row view of not only the restoration of City Hall, but also the construction of Vine Street Expressway (so much dust and dirt). I remember hearing that they analyzed the original paint underneath all the dirt and the color they chose was as close to the original as they could get. I have most of this on video (I bought my first camcorder in 1988, and was filming everything when I moved back into Center Cityin 1989 (I first moved in when I started Drexel in 1982).

Quite a fun time, back then. If you wanted to travel from Woody’s to Kurt’s, you literally took your life in your hands by walking from 13th and Walnut to 13th and Chestnut. Scarey.

Anyway, I enjoy watching those old tapes of the rebirth of CC back in the 80’s. I also took pictures as One Liberty Place was going up from Rittenhouse Square in ‘86. It took them forever to finish the upper floor glass.
     
     
  #3054  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 7:51 AM
eixample eixample is offline
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Damn, you need to digitize those videos and throw them up on youtube!

If the city hall paint tower choice was a misguided effort to match the original, I suppose it makes more sense on one level, but I think most would agree that it would look better if it just matched the stone.
     
     
  #3055  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 2:47 PM
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^I'd love to see those videos too.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BkYolj8B...o_philadelphia
     
     
  #3056  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64 View Post
I was born in the late 90's, so I never saw Philly that way. My parents have told me numerous times about how bad Center City was in the 70's and 80's. My Dad remarks about how much better Philly is now every time we go there. My Mom still doesn't use SEPTA, aside from the trains. My 91-year old Uncle recently recalled a time when there were adult bookstores across from Independence Hall. I really think the lack of skyscrapers exceeding City Hall really hurt Philly's skyline long term.

I remember at the recent Louis Kahn exhibit, they had renderings of his 600 footer that was supposed to be built in the 50's at 13th and Market. It was shot down by Kevin Bacon's father, of all people. Just imagine if a super-innovative skyscraper had reached that height in Philly in the 50's...

I didn't know there was a Louis Kahn exhibit here but he was really forward thinking; he wanted downtown Philadelphia to be what it is now. If I remember right that tower at 13th and Market was some type of Transportation Hub but Edmund Bacon rejected it. My father was a little younger that Bacon; the generation after Bacon and he wasn't thrilled about him because he had good ideas but in many ways even though he modernized some parts of downtown when they tore Penn Station down and built Penn Center; he was way to restrictive. It was almost as if, well Bacon from what I remember wanted Philadelphia to look a bit like London did when they were rebuilding it after the Blitz; but he restricted the city from looking more cosmopolitan.

In the 1970's an earlier downtown; ha; oh it sucked. Now downtown looks amazing; its almost like its not the same city or in the same country even. In those days I would come downtown to Chinatown, chat up the ladies in Sun Beam Drug store and go to the Academy of Music to listen to the Orchestra with Eugene Ormandy; but it was one of those things where you traveled to town; got your stuff and got out of town. Now its actually fun to be downtown; you can stay hours; even spend the night; you can really enjoy downtown and you don't have to spend an arm and a leg like in New York City.

Downtown Philadelphia is actually as much fun as New York City was before 1990 when it became to expensive to enjoy yourself there. I don't mean to make this a city to city comparison but Philadelphia is a real city; a functioning city; and affordable city. New York is more like an amusement park; fun but expensive and you can't live there.
     
     
  #3057  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2018, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
I didn't know there was a Louis Kahn exhibit here but he was really forward thinking; he wanted downtown Philadelphia to be what it is now. If I remember right that tower at 13th and Market was some type of Transportation Hub but Edmund Bacon rejected it. My father was a little younger that Bacon; the generation after Bacon and he wasn't thrilled about him because he had good ideas but in many ways even though he modernized some parts of downtown when they tore Penn Station down and built Penn Center; he was way to restrictive. It was almost as if, well Bacon from what I remember wanted Philadelphia to look a bit like London did when they were rebuilding it after the Blitz; but he restricted the city from looking more cosmopolitan.
Kahn is one of my favorite architects, so don't get me wrong, but I disagree with you about Kahn's thoughts about CC Philly. There were times when his drawings showed most of Philly river to river being bulldozed! He was a modernist and they in general didn't have much love or appreciation for what proceeded them. Kahn shows how one can be a great architect and a lousy city planner. Beacon as a planner, well like most people I give him very mixed reviews. Look at the Gallery pre it's present rebuilding, very anti urban and wanted to be a suburban mall dropped into the heart of the City. The car was king back then, or at least most/many in leadership roles thought it was. We should be glad many of the highway/expressway plans never came to be. Philly would have been wrecked.
     
     
  #3058  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2018, 12:25 AM
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The view from the One Liberty Observation Deck:

     
     
  #3059  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2018, 2:16 PM
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Kahn is one of my favorite architects, so don't get me wrong, but I disagree with you about Kahn's thoughts about CC Philly. There were times when his drawings showed most of Philly river to river being bulldozed! He was a modernist and they in general didn't have much love or appreciation for what proceeded them. Kahn shows how one can be a great architect and a lousy city planner. Beacon as a planner, well like most people I give him very mixed reviews. Look at the Gallery pre it's present rebuilding, very anti urban and wanted to be a suburban mall dropped into the heart of the City. The car was king back then, or at least most/many in leadership roles thought it was. We should be glad many of the highway/expressway plans never came to be. Philly would have been wrecked.

You are right with that regard; Kahn was extreme in some things; but his designs were good. I know my father all those years ago wasn't crazy about Bacon. Thinking back I can see both sides were a bit extreme in some things but all it all Philly turned out well.

In those days many people didn't have respect for conservation; there was that guy in New York name Robert Moses; that guy. He did so much damage to that city and you know that almost happened here in Philly in several places.

I guess we should get back to this project however, I'm really concerned with the lighting at night. Its location in the skyline is rather key because it should stand out but not in a way that shows up the Second Empire Style of City Hall. Its a really interesting circumstance because rarely do you see a historic masterpiece directly across the street from a modern development; the mix of Old World Charm and Modernism is very distinct.
     
     
  #3060  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2018, 1:34 PM
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