The future of Hamilton's public transit

[hamiltonguy]

1) The tunnel issue. It needs more Width so it would probably be necessary to demolish buildings on at least one side, because tunnel exspansion would destroy foundations.

2) All the mountain buses ALREADY pass Hunter Street, so why a special terminal to stop at, then continue on?

[hamiltonguy]

I've spent some time pondering the LRT routing West of the Delta and came up with this:

Right Side of Main Street with counterflow Lanes to Wellington.

Middle of King Street to Bay (King and Main to be two way through downtown)

Counterflow lanes on the left side of King Street till it turns back to two way (This eliminates the need to rework the 403 interchanges)

Centre of King Street/ Stirling Street to Stirling Gate

Through the Campus to the Go Terminal on Cootes Drive



Also with the LRT the following Bus routes would change:

1A would be eliminated
1 would travel eastbound on Cannon till Balmoral and both directions would use King street east of the Delta, and then Centennial from King to Eastgate.

All 5 buses would now use the Maplewood/ Delaware/ Stinson routing.

Between Bay and Dundas, a Westbound counterflow Bus Lane would be added to allow 5 buses to service Main Street instead of duplicating the LRT on King, as well as speeding access to the 403 by Go Buses.

5 buses would have to use King westbound between Dundurn and the two way conversion at which point they would use Two bus lanes (One each direction) down the Middle of Main street to the Go Terminal at Mac.

These Lanes would help with a future innovation district Tram Between the Go Terminal at Mac and the West Hamilton Innovation District and McMaster Innovation Park, as well as speeding travel on the 5 and 407 Express GO Route.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

1) The tunnel issue. It needs more Width so it would probably be necessary to demolish buildings on at least one side, because tunnel exspansion would destroy foundations.

The tunnel needs a few feet more at the most for width. It was originally double track but they cut it down to one back in the 50's because trains were getting wider and because more advanced control systems allowed them to run the same traffic with only one track. The bigger technical challenge is in lowering, rather than widening.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

The tunnel needs a few feet more at the most for width. It was originally double track but they cut it down to one back in the 50's because trains were getting wider and because more advanced control systems allowed them to run the same traffic with only one track. The bigger technical challenge is in lowering, rather than widening.

The explanation I heard was the the Tunnel ceiling slants at the side so the track had to be in the centre to accommodate double-stacked container cars.

[coalminecanary]

All of these tunnel problems can be overcome. As I said it's a matter of will. I bet it could be done without removing any buildings. All of the "can't do" reasons are just as anecdotal as my "can do" ones. I'd like the city or GO or someone to at least hire someone to look at it from an engineering perspective and offer up some options. But it's way easier to stand and look at it and claim "there's no WAY 2 trains can pass through there". What about doubling the tracks on either end of the tunnel, then it's all down to scheduling of the tunnel itself...

Regarding why we need a terminal downtown...
1. the drivers need a place to stop for coffee, pee, etc
2. making transfers should be as easy as possible... if i need to get from east hamilton via king to connect to the aberdeen bus, where do i get off and where do i wait for the next one? right now it's impossible to tell. you have to get off at gore, and you can't read any of the signs on the south leg of gore without walking up to them. you cant read the signs at the stops on james without walking up to them. you can't read the signs on the macnab section without going WAY out of your way and if you didnt know about macnab you'd be screwed. with a terminal, its easy... you get off the bus and you can see all of the signs on all of the routes from where you stand.
3. connecting to inter city transport with minimal walking

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

The explanation I heard was the the Tunnel ceiling slants at the side so the track had to be in the centre to accommodate double-stacked container cars.

Perhaps that is more accurate - it's more likely trains became higher rather than wider. Either way, it's not likely to cut into any building foundations.

It's not an issue of technical ability at all, only cost. The cost was pushed higher than anyone wanted to pay at the time. That's why I wonder if our money is going to the wrong place if they plan to extend to Stoney Creek.

For what its worth, Barrie has more GO trains than downtown Hamilton now that it's open, and there are rumours of a downtown station being added there in the next year. Come on Hamilton, we can do better.

[hamiltonguy]

While in all honestly I don't think that the tunnel could be expanded without deep expense to protect the nearby buildings, I agree that they can still expand services to Hunter Street if CPR learned how to schedule like they do in Europe.

Anyways the other problem is that the CPR line does not connect to the right Niagara bound cities for service to points east of Hamilton. Therefore any through trains will have to use the James North Station.

Please don't bring up Joining the two lines in the East End.

1) The Right of Way is only large enough for 1 Track
2) The Track is very curved as it is old industrial trackage
3) It's Very difficult and VERY expensive to grade separate this line.
4) This Line would be very slow compared to a trip via the QEW or the CN rail line, In short it would not be competitive

In short it won't happen, and it is a non-starter.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

All of these tunnel problems can be overcome. As I said it's a matter of will. I bet it could be done without removing any buildings. All of the "can't do" reasons are just as anecdotal as my "can do" ones. I'd like the city or GO or someone to at least hire someone to look at it from an engineering perspective and offer up some options. But it's way easier to stand and look at it and claim "there's no WAY 2 trains can pass through there". What about doubling the tracks on either end of the tunnel, then it's all down to scheduling of the tunnel itself...

Regarding why we need a terminal downtown...
1. the drivers need a place to stop for coffee, pee, etc
2. making transfers should be as easy as possible... if i need to get from east hamilton via king to connect to the aberdeen bus, where do i get off and where do i wait for the next one? right now it's impossible to tell. you have to get off at gore, and you can't read any of the signs on the south leg of gore without walking up to them. you cant read the signs at the stops on james without walking up to them. you can't read the signs on the macnab section without going WAY out of your way and if you didnt know about macnab you'd be screwed. with a terminal, its easy... you get off the bus and you can see all of the signs on all of the routes from where you stand.
3. connecting to inter city transport with minimal walking

We can have a terminal at MacNab. Have you read the city report analyzing the different options?

And as it is transferring from the GO Centre to the Bus is Easy: Northbound buses are on John, Southbound on James, and the Downtown Buses that don't travel on James and John stop on Hunter.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by hamiltonguy

We can have a terminal at MacNab. Have you read the city report analyzing the different options?

And as it is transferring from the GO Centre to the Bus is Easy: Northbound buses are on John, Southbound on James, and the Downtown Buses that don't travel on James and John stop on Hunter.

But can you explain to me why we need to build a new one when we have an existing structure full of bus bays right downtown that sites mostly empty all day?

GO->bus is relatively easy, but it would be better if visitors arriving from out of town can step out and immediately see where all of the local buses stop. Doesn't it make sense that the inter-city transit hub is on the same spot as the local transit hub?

[SteelTown]

The GO Bus will NOT, repeat NOT, relocate to the possible waterfront GO Station.

[flar]

I think rush hour trains would still go to the Hunter St. station too.

[raisethehammer]

does anyone have this report from the city?? please put up a link.

[SteelTown]

^ I've only said that a a few dozen times already.

I just feel like giving up on this topic as really the CP line is a non-starter as it'll be extremely difficult to get that line connected to the CN line to extend the GO Train service to Stoney Creek and the Niagara Region, hence why Mextrolinx is promoting the possible waterfront GO Station as the "Gateway to Niagara". Read the report yourself. Funding for this project will hopefully be part of the next provincal budget and start construction in 2009.

But I'll just let people continue on discussing as if the tunnel is the real barrier, which it isn't.

[raisethehammer]

maybe you're all more optimistic than I, but I can't get juiced up enough to even join in on this conversation.
Widening the tunnel will never happen. All day trains might never happen. I have no clue what's going on with the James North station.... again, unless I'm missing something, I see nothing to get my hopes up on any of this.
We've been hearing it for years and years now.

[SteelTown]

Dalton has yet disappointed any transit funding out there. Put out a transit plan and Dalton will likely approve it, I haven't heard of a transit project that has been rejected so far. In fact Hamilton got lucky with $400 million, I bet nobody would have guessed that high of a figure. In fact I bet nobody would have guessed Dalton would even give money to Hamilton for rapid transit.

The creation of Metrolinx is one of Dalton's babies and again every funding request Metrolinx has asked for Dalton has delivered and he'll more than likely deliver again on budget day. Even the Finance Minster hinted it. Plus it was only a few days ago that Dalton hinted Hamilton will be getting improved GO Train service in the short term. Think I copied that article here. I believe Metrolinx is requesting something like $3.5 million for new platforms at the James North station (waterfront GO station in case some are getting confused).

[SteelTown]

I'll post this up here so you can see the "Gateway to Niagara" part

[matt602]

I wish people would stop bringing up the rail line that runs parallel to Gage. It is not at all suited for daily passenger service. It is an infrequently used piece of track that simply lets CP grab cars from the industrial end of Hamilton. I don't even think it connects up with the CN tracks easily (neither is that it's purpose). It runs literally right through backyards and crosses major streets. It's just not feasible for commuter rail.

I think the only compromise that can be had is the rush hour trains at Hunter with bus service, and daily service at James North. It's just the way the city is laid out. Even if the tunnel is widened, there is no easy way to continue service to Niagara. Service MUST be expanded in the future to Niagara, so provisions must be made for that.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Regarding why we need a terminal downtown...
1. the drivers need a place to stop for coffee, pee, etc
2. making transfers should be as easy as possible... if i need to get from east hamilton via king to connect to the aberdeen bus, where do i get off and where do i wait for the next one? right now it's impossible to tell. you have to get off at gore, and you can't read any of the signs on the south leg of gore without walking up to them. you cant read the signs at the stops on james without walking up to them. you can't read the signs on the macnab section without going WAY out of your way and if you didnt know about macnab you'd be screwed. with a terminal, its easy... you get off the bus and you can see all of the signs on all of the routes from where you stand.

That's probably the best point supporting a complete transit hub @ TH&B. Sure *I* know how to manoeuvre my way around our current crazy-maze we call the Gore Park Transit Hub, but what if I was a 1st time visitor from Toronto getting off the GO Bus to visit someone, etc. "How do I get to Rice/Mohawk, please?"
"Just walk up Hughson 'til you get to a small park full of buses, you'll find your way!"
... it's not so easy for newbies!

When I 1st arrived in Mtl for school, I got off VIA at the Gare Central (Central Stn), and it was connected with both Metro & an indoor bus transit hub!! It was so easy for any visitor. I reached my school (in Mount Royal/Cotes-des-Neiges area) on my 1st attempt... never having visited the city before.

So someone from say Montreal or Toronto gets off VIA (not likely) or GO at James N. Then they have to walk ALL the way up to either McNabb, Gore Park or Hunter St just to get to their local destination. Doesn't make any sense (to me anyway).

But if they do decide to go with a James N Stn, I sincerely hope they concentrate the HSR at TH&B at least.

[hamiltonguy]

The Bus Bays at TH&B do not sit empty all day.

Switching to city buses at the TH&B Station is already easy, although perhaps they should add signs to make it clearer.

The Gore Park Buses should be relocated to the expanded MacNab Terminal

But I agree about James North Station, we at least need a Downtown to waterfront streetcar to link it with major employment and tourist areas.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

The GO Bus will NOT, repeat NOT, relocate to the possible waterfront GO Station.

Did anyone say that? Under the current plan, when (if?) the James/Waterfront platform (station?) is built, it will accommodate 24 hour standard GO (and VIA?) trains. Hunter remains for all GO bus service and rush hour GO train service. I think most of us understand this plan already...

Originally Posted by SteelTown

But I'll just let people continue on discussing as if the tunnel is the real barrier, which it isn't.

Well, it is a physical barrier. But what I have been saying repeatedly is that the REAL barrier is WILLPOWER.

Originally Posted by matt602

I think the only compromise that can be had is the rush hour trains at Hunter with bus service, and daily service at James North. It's just the way the city is laid out. Even if the tunnel is widened, there is no easy way to continue service to Niagara. Service MUST be expanded in the future to Niagara, so provisions must be made for that.

You all seem to be stuck in the mindset that we need to squeeze more trains and more service within the physical track layouts that we have. That we have to compromise at the cost of reduced rail service. My point is that we need a complete paradigm shift in how we build our transportation infrastructure.

I am not optimistic that it will happen, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be talking about it.

Tell me this: if we can find a way to plan a brand new highway through the middle of the peninsula, can we not find the land and space to build a rail line that runs from the south rails in Hamilton to St. Kitts and the falls?

Is there no need for passenger service to Stoney Creek and Fort Erie and on to Buffalo that way? Can't we have two passenger rail lines to Niagara?

Is there any reason we should NOT be bringing these "radical" ideas up?

For some reason, widening right of ways, building overpasses and tunnels, acquiring land, etc all are tossed out as IMPOSSIBLE for rail, but we'll do all of this and more for a highway. Sure the gage line is narrow and slow. So rebuild it. Sure, crossings suck. So build overpasses. We are about to build an overpass at Clappisons to access A MALL. Can't anyone see how absolutely fucked up this is?

All I'm trying to do is point out that we can and should be thinking big when it comes to rail. Even if you don't believe in peak oil, even if you think that oil supplies are endless, even if you think the entire oil industry is a huge scam, the reality that we are living in is one of skyrocketing fuel prices. No matter what the reason is for the price spikes, we will soon find that maintaining roads never mind driving on them will become financially impossible. We will wish we had better rail service. And if we are not careful it will soon be too late for us to build it.

So when it comes to rail these days, I talk big. Sorry if it's unrealistic but the only way it's going to become realistic is if we talk about it NOW.