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  #121  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
How many people did Obama deport? How many of them fled to Canada instead?
Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President. Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people through immigration orders, which doesn’t include the number of people who "self-deported" or were turned away and/or returned to their home country at the border by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama...ry?id=41715661
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  #122  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 2:22 PM
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They had a law professor from Osgoode Hall Law School on Metro Morning this morning, and he clarified a few thing. He didn't say which one exactly, but apparently asylum seekers can't be penalized for illegal entry under Canadian law, not just international law.

He also made a point that it doesn't make sense to call them queue jumpers since there is no queue for this sort of refugee-claimant in the first place, and they aren't taking a spot that might go to a refugee-claimant oversees; the two streams are apparently administered independently.
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  #123  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 2:41 PM
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Oh I get it. And hell, if I was in their shoes I can't say that I wouldn't be doing the same thing, however the point was that under Canadian law, what they are doing is illegal.
What exactly is illegal about it? They're showing up and claiming asylum as the system permits them to. They're not on the lam from the RCMP/CBSA... they turn themselves in as soon as they're in Canada.

Everyone is acting as though failure to report to CBSA on entering Canada is some massive capital offense (I guess we've been conditioned to think that way with the expansion in border rigamarole since 9/11) when in practice, maybe you get a fine... it's about as serious as a speeding ticket. But if that's where the line is drawn, then half the country is "illegal" due to hiding that extra carton of cigarettes or few pairs of new shoes or whatever from the CBSA upon returning from the US.
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  #124  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 2:48 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
They had a law professor from Osgoode Hall Law School on Metro Morning this morning, and he clarified a few thing. He didn't say which one exactly, but apparently asylum seekers can't be penalized for illegal entry under Canadian law, not just international law.

He also made a point that it doesn't make sense to call them queue jumpers since there is no queue for this sort of refugee-claimant in the first place, and they aren't taking a spot that might go to a refugee-claimant oversees; the two streams are apparently administered independently.
Does Canada even have quotas and a defined number of "spots" for refugees? I know we threw around the number 25,000 for the Syrians, but that was a commitment as opposed to a quota (threshold), was it not?
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  #125  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 2:56 PM
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A quick check reveals we've apparently taken in 35,000 Syrian refugees. We could end up taking in 50,000 when all is said and done.
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  #126  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 3:05 PM
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That's a good question. I don't know for sure, but I believe that the annual quotas only apply to the Refugee and Humanitarian Resettlement Program stream (RHRP ; applications outside of Canada) and it's more of an approximate number rather than a sharp limit. For the In-Canada Asylum Program (ICAP), there can't be a limit since everyone has the right to a hearing.

So I presume that it isn't a zero sum game; an additional ICAP claimant does not displace a RHRP claimant. However, I'd imagine that, if CIC expects there to be a high number of ICAP claimants over a long period of time and there are not more ressources for refugee hearing and integration services, they may eventually revise their RHRP goals down in order to not overload them.
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  #127  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
But if you think that the arrival of some adherents of Islam into our bigger cities in the 21st century is anywhere remotely close to the cultural and social shockwaves that reverberated through North American small cities and towns when hordes of Germans showed up on these shores, then you're an idiot. It is not the same sort of social dislocation/adjustment at all.
Sort of.

Roughly one hundred years ago Canada received the same absolute number of immigrants as today - 250,000/year - but on a population of 7 million, rather than 36 million.

But I would argue that the arrival of 1 immigrant today might place a burden on state resources that is equivalent to the arrival of 5 immigrants back then. I'm not talking about welfare payments to poorer immigrants - that's a red herring. Even if it were true, it's just the tip of the iceberg compared to the public expenditures that go toward supporting a vast state apparatus that follows the life of every Canadian, rich or poor, from cradle to grave.

If a German-trained Apotheker arrived in Berlin, Ontario in 1916, he would probably just go the registry office, register his business and have his drugstore up and running within a month. He'd hire an assistant by posting a want ad in the paper, and then pay him by taking cash out of the safe at the end of the month.

Needless to say the intricacies of an immigrant with non-Canadian education and certification starting a pharmacy in 2016 are considerably more intricate, and the paperwork required to hire a worker are much more complex.

Of course, the trade off - especially in the example of a pharmacy - is that the massive amount of regulations and certifications that are required probably serve the interests of the public*. Making sure that the pharmacist doesn't leave fentanyl on the shelf beside the Altoids is probably something that requires training, testing, certification and inspection - all on the public dime - but it's probably in our best interest. And the fact that employees aren't just hired off the street and paid in cash but apply with a valid SIN and file income taxes and CPP payments probably supports a safety net that is in their interest as well.

Anyway - TL;DR - this is all to say that the modern state (post-1960) requires every citizen to be managed and accounted for, and that means it is very susceptible to large changes in demographics - driven either by generational fertility changes, or the arrival of newcomers. I personally prefer the modern welfare state over living in the pre-war world, but it is very fragile and requires constant vigilance.

---

*On the other hand, it's possible that the endless certifications and licensing practices that seemingly every profession requires these days is a drag on productivity and stifles the natural growth of the labour market. For example, there is a huge demand for engineers of all stripes, but if you look closely, you'll find that many engineers do work that doesn't require them to solve complex differential equations or calculate the torsional stress on a bridge span, or doing any of the special engineer training that they received while getting their P.Eng. In other words, many engineers are doing jobs that many other people could do, but the requirements for engineers in many jobs limits the supply of people you can hire and drives up engineer salaries/wages relative to similarly-talented people. You could also argue [I would] that the state may have gone too far in using public expenditures to support the public interest when it starts hiring people to do things like write policy reports on public art projects in the public realm that won't actually be implemented and pays them $70,000/year + benefits to do so.
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  #128  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 3:33 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
He also made a point that it doesn't make sense to call them queue jumpers since there is no queue for this sort of refugee-claimant in the first place, and they aren't taking a spot that might go to a refugee-claimant oversees; the two streams are apparently administered independently.
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
So I presume that it isn't a zero sum game; an additional ICAP claimant does not displace a RHRP claimant. However, I'd imagine that, if CIC expects there to be a high number of ICAP claimants over a long period of time and there are not more ressources for refugee hearing and integration services, they may eventually revise their RHRP goals down in order to not overload them.
I confess I don't fully know what I'm talking about, but my experience of things in general tells me that RHRP resources and ICAP resources are probably communicating vessels to a degree. It's impossible for them to be completely independent, especially since I'm pretty sure they both rely on the exact same government arms to do background checks for them and other such things.

So, in a sense, it's likely not incorrect to consider these people to be queue jumpers... it's not exactly the same queue, but by showing up here (crossing the border illegally, BTW), they're hugging resources that could instead be used on the regular, RHRP queue to speed it up.

FWIW, it makes no sense, in my opinion, for these two programs to be separated. There should be only one refugee processing entity... by having two parallel entities doing it, who are still sharing some resources, going from the slower one to the faster one (i.e. physically entering Canada illegally then applying from here) is kind of queue jumping.
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  #129  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 3:41 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Sort of.

Roughly one hundred years ago Canada received the same absolute number of immigrants as today - 250,000/year - but on a population of 7 million, rather than 36 million.

But I would argue that the arrival of 1 immigrant today might place a burden on state resources that is equivalent to the arrival of 5 immigrants back then. I'm not talking about welfare payments to poorer immigrants - that's a red herring. Even if it were true, it's just the tip of the iceberg compared to the public expenditures that go toward supporting a vast state apparatus that follows the life of every Canadian, rich or poor, from cradle to grave.

If a German-trained Apotheker arrived in Berlin, Ontario in 1916, he would probably just go the registry office, register his business and have his drugstore up and running within a month. He'd hire an assistant by posting a want ad in the paper, and then pay him by taking cash out of the safe at the end of the month.

Needless to say the intricacies of an immigrant with non-Canadian education and certification starting a pharmacy in 2016 are considerably more intricate, and the paperwork required to hire a worker are much more complex.

Of course, the trade off - especially in the example of a pharmacy - is that the massive amount of regulations and certifications that are required probably serve the interests of the public*. Making sure that the pharmacist doesn't leave fentanyl on the shelf beside the Altoids is probably something that requires training, testing, certification and inspection - all on the public dime - but it's probably in our best interest. And the fact that employees aren't just hired off the street and paid in cash but apply with a valid SIN and file income taxes and CPP payments probably supports a safety net that is in their interest as well.

Anyway - TL;DR - this is all to say that the modern state (post-1960) requires every citizen to be managed and accounted for, and that means it is very susceptible to large changes in demographics - driven either by generational fertility changes, or the arrival of newcomers. I personally prefer the modern welfare state over living in the pre-war world, but it is very fragile and requires constant vigilance.

---

*On the other hand, it's possible that the endless certifications and licensing practices that seemingly every profession requires these days is a drag on productivity and stifles the natural growth of the labour market. For example, there is a huge demand for engineers of all stripes, but if you look closely, you'll find that many engineers do work that doesn't require them to solve complex differential equations or calculating the torsional stress on a bridge span, or doing any of the special engineer training that they received while getting their P.Eng. In other words, many engineers are doing jobs that many other people could do, but the requirements for engineers in many jobs limits the supply of people you can hire and drives up engineer salaries/wages relative to similarly-talented people. You could also argue [I would] that the state may have gone too far in using public expenditures to support the public interest when it starts hiring people to do things like write policy reports on public art projects in the public realm that won't actually be implemented and pays them $70,000/year + benefits to do so.
Very good point. I'd add another good point - back in "the day", these newcomers would go away and settle empty land that was ripe for the taking.

If Syrian refugees were all going to be settling some barren island in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago and make a living off it somehow, generating new economic activity in the country and paying new taxes, without adding the slightest burden to anyone already here, I'm sure nearly everyone would be fine with unrolling the welcome red carpet for 500,000 of them, and letting them build whatever kind of churches they wish on these formerly empty, remote nordic islands, and live "their way" over there (in a few generations, Syrian food would be to Alert what perogies are to the Prairies, etc.)
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  #130  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 3:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Very good point. I'd add another good point - back in "the day", these newcomers would go away and settle empty land that was ripe for the taking.

If Syrian refugees were all going to be settling some barren island in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago and make a living off it somehow, generating new economic activity in the country and paying new taxes, without adding the slightest burden to anyone already here, I'm sure nearly everyone would be fine with unrolling the welcome red carpet for 500,000 of them, and letting them build whatever kind of churches they wish on these formerly empty, remote nordic islands, and live "their way" over there (in a few generations, Syrian food would be to Alert what perogies are to the Prairies, etc.)
Well, "immigrants" and "refugees" are not the same thing, but it's still new people coming into the country. And most "refugees" do tend to stay here permanently, in spite of the messaging that we're just offering them a temporary home until things get better in their country.

In any event, in some years in the 1910s Canada brought in over 400,000 immigrants I am pretty sure. Which is still the record for this country.

As has already been stated, for many of these the government's involvement in their settlement was limited to passage on a ship across the Atlantic, and a train ticket from Halifax or Montreal to somewhere on the Prairies. Once they got to the Prairies, it was pretty much "here's your free land, good luck to you".
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  #131  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Very good point. I'd add another good point - back in "the day", these newcomers would go away and settle empty land that was ripe for the taking.

If Syrian refugees were all going to be settling some barren island in the Canadian Arctic Archipelago and make a living off it somehow, generating new economic activity in the country and paying new taxes, without adding the slightest burden to anyone already here, I'm sure nearly everyone would be fine with unrolling the welcome red carpet for 500,000 of them, and letting them build whatever kind of churches they wish on these formerly empty, remote nordic islands, and live "their way" over there (in a few generations, Syrian food would be to Alert what perogies are to the Prairies, etc.)
That wouldn't produce ethnic enclaves at all.
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  #132  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2017, 5:17 PM
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Why don't we invite all 10 million Syrian refugees to Canada? That way, Newfoundland will finally be the 2nd biggest province.
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  #133  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 3:18 AM
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So based on everything that has been said, we don't need to panic about a current slight increase of asylum seekers but the possibility of a large wave of Mexicans entering from the US is looming.

It seems our current laws allow (actually they almost encourage) anyone and everyone to enter our country away from the official points of entry as long as they report to police and claim refugee status. Plus, once they have set foot on Canadian soil, they have Charter rights which prevent them from being treated differently from citizens in almost any way except they can't vote.

It's pretty clear that we're completely vulnerable to a rapid influx of many asylum seekers which would have a significant impact on our society. I would also caution anyone who would say "but what are the chances" that if they can get from Bangladesh to Germany, they could get to Canada without too much more difficulty (especially Mexicans). I really hope JT doesn't pull a Merkel and holds off on the "everyone's welcome" rhetoric.
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  #134  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 3:23 AM
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Most of the undocumented Mexicans in the USA are economic migrants, not asylum seekers. Our system would reject them. Of course, it's conceivable that they'll simply cross over illegally and live under the table, but this sort of undocumented life is a lot harder to live in Canada than it is in the USA. Heck, very few landlords will rent to someone without credit checks which are not exactly easy for undocumented people to pass.

I can't really see a large undocumented population of economic migrants emerging here like it has in the USA.
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  #135  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 3:38 AM
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Most of the undocumented Mexicans in the USA are economic migrants, not asylum seekers. Our system would reject them. Of course, it's conceivable that they'll simply cross over illegally and live under the table, but this sort of undocumented life is a lot harder to live in Canada than it is in the USA. Heck, very few landlords will rent to someone without credit checks which are not exactly easy for undocumented people to pass.

I can't really see a large undocumented population of economic migrants emerging here like it has in the USA.
Yeah, but how hard would it really be for a Mexican to make a claim that is worthy of consideration? There's a lot of drug related violence in Mexico as well as corruption. The justice system probably doesn't meet Canadian standards either. Realistically speaking, someone would find the winning formula and others would copy it.
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  #136  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 4:49 AM
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Throw them out. They are opening flaunting the law hoping some bleeding hearts will come to their rescue.

They have NO right to be in Canada and have NO right to declare refugee status from the US. The only thing Canada should do for these little crooks is take down theur names so that they are permanently barred from Canada for the rest of their lives.
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  #137  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 5:13 AM
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Throw them out. They are opening flaunting the law hoping some bleeding hearts will come to their rescue.

They have NO right to be in Canada and have NO right to declare refugee status from the US. The only thing Canada should do for these little crooks is take down theur names so that they are permanently barred from Canada for the rest of their lives.
You shouldn't make definitive statements that are blatantly false. They have every right to declare asylum once they are arrested for illegally entering Canada, and we have a duty to process their claim.
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  #138  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 12:03 PM
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Yeah, but how hard would it really be for a Mexican to make a claim that is worthy of consideration? There's a lot of drug related violence in Mexico as well as corruption. The justice system probably doesn't meet Canadian standards either. Realistically speaking, someone would find the winning formula and others would copy it.
Anyone can make a claim which must be considered. Already, about 75 Mexican nationals file asylum claims every month. But these are people who fear persecution and can prove that their government cannot protect them, which isn't easy. A high crime rate in a certain area is not grounds for asylum.

In a scenario where a Mexican living illegally in the USA comes to the Canadian border and files an asylum claim on a straightforward basis of crime, poverty, corruption, etc., they would most likely be triaged into an short hearing during which they would most likely get a quick rejection.

So no, we don't need to fear an overwhelming influx of Mexican refugees. There will likely be an increase in the number of asylum claims, however. But that can be addressed through increased ressources for the claims process.
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  #139  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 1:22 PM
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In a scenario where a Mexican living illegally in the USA comes to the Canadian border and files an asylum claim on a straightforward basis of crime, poverty, corruption, etc., they would most likely be triaged into an short hearing during which they would most likely get a quick rejection.
Once again, you're probably right, still it would be nice to know that legal barriers which could be used to prevent entry or automatically deny claims of illegal entrants were in place and we wouldn't be solely relying on geography to limit the influx. Especially as other formerly welcoming countries are becoming less so and asylum seekers' choices are becoming more and more limited. Maybe we can learn from the mistakes of others before the same things happen to us. Especially now that the warning signs have arrived.
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  #140  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2017, 2:28 PM
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There aren't any legal barriers we can put up. If you stand 1cm outside the border, the RCMP has no jurisdiction to stop you. Once you're more than halfway over the border, the Charter guarantees you rights, which, as the Supreme Court has ruled several times, means that the government can't send you someplace where there is a clear causal link between deportation and persecution.

In the short term, we have to bolster the evaluation process to make it as efficient and accurate as possible.
In the long term, we should work with refugee-producing countries to try to mitigate the refugee-producing factors to reduce or eliminate the need for people to flee. We have to remember that refugees, by definition, don't want to flee their homes, their friends, family, career, everything. They are the symptoms of larger diseases - war, bigotry, corruption, famine - which have led to their persecution. We have to deal with the symptoms, but the only sustainable solution is to cure the disease. This is one of the reasons why our international aid commitments are so important.
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