K Street Pedestrian Mall Renovation

[Cynikal]

This is currently being talked about by City management as well as Johnson is preaching the same thing on talk radio. There are several issues to deal with but they are not so extreme to derail the idea.

I for one would like to see K Street opened up to bicycles now but we'll see if that will ever happen.

[Majin]

Does the city even have the money to move light rail off K street? Wouldn't rerouting the train be extremely expensive?

[wburg]

No, they don't, and yes, it would. I don't think they're talking about rerouting light rail off K Street, though, but putting both light rail and cars on the street. The problem is, they'd probably have to.

It works okay in Portland because they're using streetcars there, not LRVs. But a full-sized LRV train is a city block long, unlike a Portland streetcar, which isn't much bigger than a city bus. So when trains stop for passengers, they stop traffic in one direction for the entire length of the block, and there will not be enough room for two lanes of traffic, like on Del Paso Boulevard.

Re-conversion would be quite expensive, as it would probably require re-doing most of the in-street track. And RT isn't exactly made of money these days...

[Majin]

If it's going to be cars + light rail i'd say fuck it don't bother. Waste of money.

I really wish we could just get rid of light rail and build a subway. Oh well that would never happen unless we can get someone in congress to earmark us a few billion dollars.

[Web]

Originally Posted by Majin

If it's going to be cars + light rail i'd say fuck it don't bother. Waste of money.

I really wish we could just get rid of light rail and build a subway. Oh well that would never happen unless we can get someone in congress to earmark us a few billion dollars.

Sarah in Alaska just may be able to help...they did build the road to the un built bridge to nowhere......

[ozone]

My solution to K Street would not be to reintroduce cars. I think that is a money-wasting idea since both ends are blocked and it no longer functions as a through-way. IMO the problem is light-rail itself. It is noisy and intrusive, the machinery and ramps are cluttery and sometimes the crowds waiting for a train are rowdy and intimidating. Bottom line is that light-rail hurts K Street as much as it helps it. Look at the K Street mall between 12th and 13th -everyone says that this is the most successful section of the mall. Why is that? It's not even that well designed but it does works better than the rest of the mall because there's no light-rail. The area for sidewalk cafes is wider and there are addtional shade trees and plantings.

What if the Watt/I-80 line stopped at 12th Street intead of going down the mall and what if the Meadowview line continued to the depot like the Folsom line does? Then the mall could be free of the problems of light-rail and yet still have access to it. That would allow room for street vendors, addtional landscaping, wider sidewalk cafes, art work, etc. It would make the mall more enjoyable. Cars would not.

If we took light-rail off the mall then I would add a small, quiet, slow moving, easy to board low-floor electric trolley bus that would run up and down the center the mall- from the convention center to the downtown plaza -so that people who didn't want to or couldn't walk the mall could easily hop on and off. Today few, if any ride the light-rail just to get from one end of the mall to the other, but it is long enough to warrent such a convenience.

BTW the residents of Midtown, not the city, initiated the traffic calming because thoughtless suburbanites were using surface streets like a freeway. I wish vistors would just get it through their heads that lots of people (including elderly and kids) actually live, walk and bike here.

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by ozone

My solution to K Street would not be to reintroduce cars. I think that is a money-wasting idea since both ends are blocked and it no longer functions as a through-way. IMO the problem is light-rail itself. It is noisy and intrusive, the machinery and ramps are cluttery and sometimes the crowds waiting for a train are rowdy and intimidating. Bottom line is that light-rail hurts K Street as much as it helps it. Look at the K Street mall between 12th and 13th -everyone says that this is the most successful section of the mall. Why is that? It's not even that well designed but it does works better than the rest of the mall because there's no light-rail. The area for sidewalk cafes is wider and there are addtional shade trees and plantings.

What if the Watt/I-80 line stopped at 12th Street intead of going down the mall and what if the Meadowview line continued to the depot like the Folsom line does? Then the mall could be free of the problems of light-rail and yet still have access to it. That would allow room for street vendors, addtional landscaping, wider sidewalk cafes, art work, etc. It would make the mall more enjoyable. Cars would not.

If we took light-rail off the mall then I would add a small, quiet, slow moving, easy to board low-floor electric trolley bus that would run up and down the center the mall- from the convention center to the downtown plaza -so that people who didn't want to or couldn't walk the mall could easily hop on and off. Today few, if any ride the light-rail just to get from one end of the mall to the other, but it is long enough to warrent such a convenience.

BTW the residents of Midtown, not the city, initiated the traffic calming because thoughtless suburbanites were using surface streets like a freeway. I wish vistors would just get it through their heads that lots of people (including elderly and kids) actually live, walk and bike here.

Sounds like an excellent idea to me!

[Phillip]

I was perusing the new December/January issue Sactown this afternoon (and congratulations to Sactown on their second anniversary). This is the pre-Christmas issue with all the holiday advertising and it really drives home Westfield's relative level of commitment to Downtown Plaza vs Roseville Galleria.

There's a 42-page insert from Westfield celebrating the Galleria. All color, glossy paper, with a history of the mall, profiles of new merchants, gift guides, mall maps, etc. This Galleria insert was produced by Westfield, not the individual merchants. Westfield's logo is on the cover and on every page.

Downtown Plaza? Not a single ad in 144 pages. Arden Fair has an ad. Town & Country Village, the Pavillions, and the Fountains at Roseville have ads too. (It's not just Westfield though. No ad for Sunrise Mall either.) I don't see any DTP merchants bought ads individually either, not even Macy's.

Other than the ad from downtownsac.org--"121 Restaurants + 154 Shops All Witout Leaving the Grid"--a stranger looking at this issue of Sactown would never know Downtown Sac has a mall or a retail district. There are ads from downtown businesses but they're almost all restaurants and bars (Mix, Cosmo, the Park); real estate (800J, Capitol Park Penthouses); or cultural institutions (Crocker, Sac Opera).

[ozone]

The whole idea of plopping a suburban shopping mall in the middle of downtown was wrong from the begining. Let Westfield build as many gallerias they want in the burbs...and tear down town plaza. Not one dime of city money should go to that company and their stupid 'renovation' plans.

[innov8]

Originally Posted by ozone

The whole idea of plopping a suburban shopping mall in the middle of downtown was wrong from the begining. Let Westfield build as many gallerias they want in the burbs...and tear down town plaza. Not one dime of city money should go to that company and their stupid 'renovation' plans.

At the rate downtown plaza is seeing an exodus of stores in the mall, it won't
be long till it's added to this list http://www.deadmalls.com/

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by ozone

The whole idea of plopping a suburban shopping mall in the middle of downtown was wrong from the begining.

Enclosed "suburban-style" malls do work in some downtowns. SF Center (also a Westfield); Pioneer Place in Portland; Westlake in Seattle. Those cities have the critical mass of downtown residents, workers, and tourists that Sacramento just doesn't have yet.

I don't view Westfield as the main enemy here. Sacramento's demographics and the proliferation of suburban shopping alternatives are more the culprits. DTP was in decline before Westfield bought it. Westfield could have done some things differently or better at DTP, maybe slowing the rate of decline, but I don't think they or any other mall manager could have transformed or saved DTP once the customer base had already drifted away.

[Phillip]

That deadmalls.com website is almost as dead as the dead malls it commemorates.

I sent them a piece about Florin Mall about 3 years ago and they never added it to their database or acknowledged my submission. After a few weeks I wrote to the site's administrator and asked if they received my Florin Mall article. The webmaster wrote back "We got it and we're busy".

That was the last I heard and Florin Mall still isn't listed on deadmalls.com. It looks like there have only been a few updates to the site since 2005. They only list seven dead malls in all Califonia and there are many more than that.

Originally Posted by innov8

At the rate downtown plaza is seeing an exodus of stores in the mall, it won't
be long till it's added to this list http://www.deadmalls.com/

[ozone]

Originally Posted by Phillip

Enclosed "suburban-style" malls do work in some downtowns. SF Center (also a Westfield); Pioneer Place in Portland; Westlake in Seattle. Those cities have the critical mass of downtown residents, workers, and tourists that Sacramento just doesn't have yet.

I don't view Westfield as the main enemy here. Sacramento's demographics and the proliferation of suburban shopping alternatives are more the culprits. DTP was in decline before Westfield bought it. Westfield could have done some things differently or better at DTP, maybe slowing the rate of decline, but I don't think they or any other mall manager could have transformed or saved DTP once the customer base had already drifted away.

I could differ with you on how suburban and successful those other downtown malls really are but I never said they couldn't work (although they do rely heavily on suburban tourist-shoppers). I said that the concept of putting suburban-style malls downtown is wrong. There's difference. I don't think just because the "freak shows" sold lots of tickets that it was a good idea.

Suburbia did not invent the enclosed shopping mall -the downtown arcades came first but they were not filled with generic (anywhere stores) and most took public transit to get there. Plenty of people still live or work close enough to the downtown plaza to make it succeed if they would cater to their needs but Westfield doesn't know how or care to know how to attract these "city" people or those suburban dwelling "urbanites".

Maybe you don't know the recent downtown history but Westfield is an enemy here because they have over and over again tried and sadly suceeded in derailing downtown projects they deemed as a competitive threat.

It's not true that the Downtown Plaza was in decline before Westfield bought it and when they did they stripped it of any hint of urbanity -once they put the kiddie play land in it was over.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying Sacramento's demographics has something to do with it but DTP's customer base drifted away because, unlike it's predecessor, the company specialized in the suburban mall model which stopped appealing to urbanites long ago.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by ozone

My solution to K Street would not be to reintroduce cars. I think that is a money-wasting idea since both ends are blocked and it no longer functions as a through-way. IMO the problem is light-rail itself. It is noisy and intrusive, the machinery and ramps are cluttery and sometimes the crowds waiting for a train are rowdy and intimidating. Bottom line is that light-rail hurts K Street as much as it helps it. Look at the K Street mall between 12th and 13th -everyone says that this is the most successful section of the mall. Why is that? It's not even that well designed but it does works better than the rest of the mall because there's no light-rail. The area for sidewalk cafes is wider and there are addtional shade trees and plantings.

What if the Watt/I-80 line stopped at 12th Street intead of going down the mall and what if the Meadowview line continued to the depot like the Folsom line does? Then the mall could be free of the problems of light-rail and yet still have access to it. That would allow room for street vendors, additional landscaping, wider sidewalk cafes, art work, etc. It would make the mall more enjoyable. Cars would not.

If we took light-rail off the mall then I would add a small, quiet, slow moving, easy to board low-floor electric trolley bus that would run up and down the center the mall- from the convention center to the downtown plaza -so that people who didn't want to or couldn't walk the mall could easily hop on and off. Today few, if any ride the light-rail just to get from one end of the mall to the other, but it is long enough to warrent such a convenience.

BTW the residents of Midtown, not the city, initiated the traffic calming because thoughtless suburbanites were using surface streets like a freeway. I wish vistors would just get it through their heads that lots of people (including elderly and kids) actually live, walk and bike here.

Your ideas are interesting, but not probable. The car culture is not going away and the attempts to do so in the name of Global Warming BS is now ruining our economy and people are starting to notice that. Cars need to be re-introduced, the closed road is a failure and no matter how much of our tax dollars the city throws at K street the problem will not go away. As far as your mid-town calming project goes, its also a disaster and will probably be axed as well. Without a good economy, you have no tax dollars to go against the market as this city has been trying to do and losing out on many business opportunities. The urban lifestyle, without proper infrastructure, will always be a failure. Majin has the right idea with a subway, but without a strong economy we will never have such a system. I find it quite humorous that those who complain about no money for public projects continue to support policies that hinder economic growth which leads to more money for those public projects. The market always prevails no matter what, sometimes it takes many many decades for socialism and communist policies to fail. We are now seeing that with K street. Bring back the cars and the people.

[ozone]

^^^^^^
Sorry but I can't or won't waste my time discussing anything with ideologs becuase they don't think pragmatically and therefore not logically. Respectfully I think you're full of it. But you're entitled to it.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by ozone

^^^^^^
Sorry but I can't or won't waste my time discussing anything with ideologs becuase they don't think pragmatically and therefore not logically. Respectfully I think you're full of it. But you're entitled to it.

Your living in a dream world. Basically your saying you are not intelligent enough for a rebuttal because your full of it.

[Phillip]

Originally Posted by ozone

Maybe you don't know the recent downtown history but Westfield is an enemy here because they have over and over again tried and sadly suceeded in derailing downtown projects they deemed as a competitive threat.

I won't respond to every point now, ozone. You're right that Westfield has aggressively blocked competing retail projects in Sac and other cities where they have malls. When I said Westfield wasn't the enemy I didn't mean that Westfield has never done anything wrong or that they aren't self-serving.

What I meant by "Westfield is not the enemy" is that I don't think (just my opinion) that DTP is dying primarily because of Westfield's actions or nonactions. I think malls have natural lifespans; they live and die like people and animals. And if a mall is near the end of its lifespan then it doesn't matter who owns it or how it's renovated; it won't prosper because it's just done. The cheese moved.

Where we disagree is it sounds like you think that there are things Westfield could have done, maybe still can do, that would make DTP a successful retail center today.

Regarding your comment "the concept of putting suburban-style malls downtown is wrong"... do you object to enclosed malls in downtowns, places like SF Center, even if they're leased and thriving and attract visitors to downtown?

[wburg]

I agree with elements of ozone's idea for taking light rail off the mall, but there are better ways to do it.

Turning the Watt/I-80 to Meadowview line into two lines, one ending at Sac Valley Station and the other ending at 12th & I, is not very practical, partially because transferring to the other half of the line is impossible, but mostly because you'd be creating three separate lines where there were two. This means more operators, more cars being operated at once, and more complex scheduling. Not a good thing.

Instead of cutting the line in two, build a connector line. Within a few years, the new Light Rail extension will start running up 7th Street into the Railyards to Richards. Instead of running up 12th and down K, the Meadowview/I-80 line will follow 7th and 8th through the central city, turning right at North B Street and joining the existing light rail tracks on North 12th. Establish a North 12th Street station on that line, to allow a more direct light rail line to Loaves & Fishes, Salvation Army and other social services in that neighborhood, as well as to job centers along North B in the southern River District.

Another option would be to place the connector along Richards, or, probably least desirable, build a connector between 7th/8th and 12th along H Street.

The current plan for the West Sac/Downtown streetcar includes use of 7th/8th from Capitol Mall to K Street, and the existing K Street rails. The current plan is to run it down to 13th & K and have a one-way loop around J, L, and 15th.

But, as a potential alternate route, they could take over service of the 12th & I and Alkali Flat stations. This would also place the new streetcar line closer to the northern half of Midtown, the part that is farthest from the existing Light Rail line on R Street. It would be pretty easy to turn right onto D or E Street and run a line east to 19th Street. A bridge would be needed to cross the UP mainline, but it would start out in the right position.

Streetcars would work perfectly for the "a small, quiet, slow moving, easy to board low-floor electric trolley bus that would run up and down the center the mall". Streetcars are smaller than existing LRVs, quieter, and the current plan calls for center-entry low-floor streetcars. The advantage that a streetcar would have over a local mini-tram is that it is connected with the rest of the neighborhood. People riding from one point to another would be constantly passing through the mall, and people within the mall could use it to get from one end to the other, and also to places a little farther out. It would also make it easier for those a little farther from the mall to get in, for dining or shopping.

[econgrad]

Originally Posted by wburg

I agree with elements of ozone's idea for taking light rail off the mall, but there are better ways to do it.

Turning the Watt/I-80 to Meadowview line into two lines, one ending at Sac Valley Station and the other ending at 12th & I, is not very practical, partially because transferring to the other half of the line is impossible, but mostly because you'd be creating three separate lines where there were two. This means more operators, more cars being operated at once, and more complex scheduling. Not a good thing.

Instead of cutting the line in two, build a connector line. Within a few years, the new Light Rail extension will start running up 7th Street into the Railyards to Richards. Instead of running up 12th and down K, the Meadowview/I-80 line will follow 7th and 8th through the central city, turning right at North B Street and joining the existing light rail tracks on North 12th. Establish a North 12th Street station on that line, to allow a more direct light rail line to Loaves & Fishes, Salvation Army and other social services in that neighborhood, as well as to job centers along North B in the southern River District.

Another option would be to place the connector along Richards, or, probably least desirable, build a connector between 7th/8th and 12th along H Street.

The current plan for the West Sac/Downtown streetcar includes use of 7th/8th from Capitol Mall to K Street, and the existing K Street rails. The current plan is to run it down to 13th & K and have a one-way loop around J, L, and 15th.

But, as a potential alternate route, they could take over service of the 12th & I and Alkali Flat stations. This would also place the new streetcar line closer to the northern half of Midtown, the part that is farthest from the existing Light Rail line on R Street. It would be pretty easy to turn right onto D or E Street and run a line east to 19th Street. A bridge would be needed to cross the UP mainline, but it would start out in the right position.

Streetcars would work perfectly for the "a small, quiet, slow moving, easy to board low-floor electric trolley bus that would run up and down the center the mall". Streetcars are smaller than existing LRVs, quieter, and the current plan calls for center-entry low-floor streetcars. The advantage that a streetcar would have over a local mini-tram is that it is connected with the rest of the neighborhood. People riding from one point to another would be constantly passing through the mall, and people within the mall could use it to get from one end to the other, and also to places a little farther out. It would also make it easier for those a little farther from the mall to get in, for dining or shopping.

And I am the one being called an ideologue? No one wants to take Light Rail and go shopping. Yep, I picture all the soccer moms with bags and bags of gifts and clothes dragging them all on the light rail! Mall shoppers want to drive up, make their mass purchases and stick it all safely in the truck of their car and leave. Cars and easier access for cars is the only practical answer. Which is what is going to happen. Light Rail and Closed roads is what has killed K street.

[wburg]

Yes, econgrad, you're the ideologue. The whole point, which you seem to have missed, is to move LRVs off of K Street and replace them with streetcars. K Street was going downhill long before light rail or the pedestrian mall arrived--that's why they went to such lengths to build the mall in the first place. Really, the point when it started going downhill was the late 1940s--after the streetcars stopped operating.

The other point you missed is that I don't consider soccer-mom shoppers to be the only, or even the most important, user of the K Street mall. Trying to treat it like a suburban mall, just in a different place, has always been a failure, so I say it's time to stop trying. Dining and entertainment options are on the upswing, and handy neighborhood transportation helps people on their lunchbreak as well as evening diners, those attending plays or staying at downtown hotels (or living in downtown lofts), or even Light Rail Pub Crawlers. And if you say that Light Rail and the streetcar would have to run later into the night to be really good for that, you would have my full agreement.

Incidentally, I take light rail in conjunction with shopping quite often: I visit shops on the mall after work, typically only buying one or two bags' worth of stuff, and if it's too heavy to walk home with I can hop on light rail a block away.

If I wanted to get something bigger than I can carry home, there is plenty of parking at Downtown Plaza (free with purchase) so it's not like parking is nonexistent, and getting there isn't particularly difficult either.