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  #81  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:04 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
But we're not talking about everywhere. We're talking about a service territory that does have those power sources (and they're more than adequate), and does not have to invest significant cost in expanding natural gas infrastructure. That is the market deciding.
Dude, Natural gas is in literally thousands of products you use all the time. Even if you stopped all energy uses (which you wont as its one of the most cost effective ways to produce lots of electricity) it would still be vital to how your life functions.

Its one of the most important resources on earth:

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  #82  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:07 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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But pj3000's answer is correct (and the one I'd have given) - since that area of California has pretty green electric already (and that will only continue improving from now on), no reason at all to invest into new natural gas distribution infrastructure for any future developments.

If pollution had an accurate pricetag attached to it, we wouldn't need any regulations and "the market" would naturally always do the greenest a.k.a. cheapest thing in all cases.

But we don't, yet, so... that's still a positive step forward. (That the city would stop a dumb developer from developing a soon-to-be-obsolete fossil fuel distribution infrastructure, should one want to fund that by themselves.)
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  #83  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:08 AM
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^^ Seriously, man? Really, just give it up.
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  #84  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:09 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
No, it won't inconvenience Berkeley residents or developers. It's much cheaper to build all electric, and never gets cold enough there to necessitate anything more than electric heat.

You're wrong yet again, but just cannot bear to admit it!! Big surprise around here! How do you get through the day being wrong so much?
You cant be wrong about your opinion on the city of Berkeley's virtue signaling city code.

Congratulations you enjoy buying indulgences to make up for your climate and equality sins.

Weather you like the reg or not it effectively does nothing of importance other than make life in Berkeley that much more annoying.
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  #85  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Dude, Natural gas is in literally thousands of products you use all the time. Even if you stopped all energy uses (which you wont as its one of the most cost effective ways to produce lots of electricity) it would still be vital to how your life functions.

Its one of the most important resources on earth:
Are you under the impression that all plastics will be banned within Berkeley city limits? Or that average Berkeley residents need their homes to be supplied with pipes bringing them fossil fuels because they're synthesizing their own plastics at home? We really don't seem to be reading the same OP article.
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  #86  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:11 AM
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^ Don't even bother with this guy
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  #87  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Dude, Natural gas is in literally thousands of products you use all the time. Even if you stopped all energy uses (which you wont as its one of the most cost effective ways to produce lots of electricity) it would still be vital to how your life functions.

Its one of the most important resources on earth:


Great link

Thanks
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  #88  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:14 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Are you under the impression that all plastics will be banned within Berkeley city limits? Or that average Berkeley residents need their homes to be supplied with pipes bringing them fossil fuels because they're synthesizing their own plastics at home? We really don't seem to be reading the same OP article.
That isnt what I said at all, Pj300 seems to think that Fossil fuels will be going away and that is absolutely not the case, there is no current set of products or services that could effectively replace petroleum and all of its derivative uses.

So even if everyone in California stopped using electricity made from Oil and LNG you would still use products made with electricity made from Oil and LNG or you would use products made directly from chemical derivatives of Oil and LNG or you would eat food grown with fertilizer and pesticides made form Oil and LNG and shipped into California with Oil.

Its a meaningless gesture on the part of the city of Berkeley meant to make a certain aspect of politically motivated people in Berkeley feel good about themselves.
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  #89  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:15 AM
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Right, and I was replying to the notion that:
Right, and the post you were replying to talking about Berkeley specifically. (You could extend the logic to any area with clean electricity, though. Quebec, for example, could easily ban natural gas in new developments too - we just don't need to do that, 'cause no developer would build houses heated by anything but electricity. If we did like Berkeley no one would notice anything.)
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  #90  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by bnk View Post
Great link

Thanks
Link to what? google "products made from oil and gas" and prepare to be amazed.
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  #91  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
That isnt what I said at all, Pj300 seems to think that Fossil fuels will be going away and that is absolutely not the case, there is no current set of products or services that could effectively replace petroleum and all of its derivative uses.
I've read his posts too; pj3000 is saying (and I agree with him) that in the 21st century, there's no reason anymore to have an expensive network of pipes bringing fossil fuels destined for single-use burning to average homes in that area of California.

Using it to make a permanent, useful plastic item... is totally different from burning it for heat. The former is fine, the latter is antiquated behavior nowadays.
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  #92  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
That isnt what I said at all, Pj300 seems to think that Fossil fuels will be going away and that is absolutely not the case, there is no current set of products or services that could effectively replace petroleum and all of its derivative uses.

So even if everyone in California stopped using electricity made from Oil and LNG you would still use products made with electricity made from Oil and LNG or you would use products made directly from chemical derivatives of Oil and LNG or you would eat food grown with fertilizer and pesticides made form Oil and LNG and shipped into California with Oil.

Its a meaningless gesture on the part of the city of Berkeley meant to make a certain aspect of politically motivated people in Berkeley feel good about themselves.
Stop. I'm not talking about fossil fuels going away. Stop bringing petrochemical products into this. We're talking about about fuel source for power/heat in Berkeley, California specifically.

The regulation is a push towards reducing emissions via electrification. It's not meaningless. It's being supported by one of the largest utilities in the nation, and many other utilities around the country are moving in the same direction, as alternative power sources begin to become more viable on the large scale. Berkeley will be a progressive test case for this... as it often is.
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  #93  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
So even if everyone in California stopped using electricity made from Oil and LNG you would still use products made with electricity made from Oil and LNG or you would use products made directly from chemical derivatives of Oil and LNG or you would eat food grown with fertilizer and pesticides made form Oil and LNG and shipped into California with Oil.
So you don't see a difference between

Scenario 1) Guy in California buys X tons of plastic items made with O&G per year and burns Y tons of O&G per year for his heating and cooking needs;

Scenario 2) Same Guy in California buys X tons of plastic items made with O&G per year and burns 0 tons of O&G per year for his heating and cooking needs.

???
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  #94  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:24 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by pj3000 View Post
Stop. I'm not talking about fossil fuels going away. Stop bringing petrochemical products into this. We're talking about about fuel source for power/heat in Berkeley, California specifically.
Exactly. In fact now that Berkeley will be burning less O&G it leaves MORE of it to craft Obadno's favorite cheap plastic crap.
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  #95  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:26 AM
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Originally Posted by floor23 View Post
only someone from California would think that Berkeley is significant in the culinary world. Cali has great restaurants throughout the state, but Berkeley isn't anything special.
Chez Panisse started in Berkeley. The last significant American food movement was California Cuisine which arguably started, or at least was popularized by Alice Waters. If you’re in the culinary world, you know Chez Panisse, which was at one time, the most important restaurant in America.
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  #96  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:30 AM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
So you don't see a difference between

Scenario 1) Guy in California buys X tons of plastic items made with O&G per year and burns Y tons of O&G per year for his heating and cooking needs;

Scenario 2) Same Guy in California buys X tons of plastic items made with O&G per year and burns 0 tons of O&G per year for his heating and cooking needs.

???
You have a very serious lack of understanding of scale. The amount of gas a the people of Berkeley use to cook is so incredibly impossibly small compared to the gas used and burned every day around the world its literally a joke.

Which is why the whole thing is a meaningless gesture that does nothing but make, I guess people like you, feel good for the fact that your existence poisons the earth.

If you really want to save the planet you should start by offing yourself as that will prevent far more fossil fuel usage overall than using Tesla or cooking on an electric stove instead of a gas one.
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  #97  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:36 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
I had no idea that Ontario was that cold. Here in Quebec, everyone has had electric baseboard heating for almost two generations now (many people alive have never known anything else - I have older buildings with hot water systems and often new tenants if they're young have no idea there are valves on these radiators) and it's perfectly fine.
Yes, but Hydro Quebec has ample cheap electricity because of the massive James Bay dams built decades ago and because of a very advantageous contracted rate for hydro electricity transmission from Labrador. Ontario electric rates are much higher because hydro electricity capacity is much lower. With base board heating in Ontario, you can spend several hundred a month in winter. I know because I am involved with a building heated with electricity. It is a completely different world west of the Ottawa River.
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  #98  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
You have a very serious lack of understanding of scale. The amount of gas a the people of Berkeley use to cook is so incredibly impossibly small compared to the gas used and burned every day around the world its literally a joke.
No, I'm very aware of scale. You're the one who seems unaware that great things are composed of a lot of little constituting parts.

With your logic, there's no difference between me going somewhere on foot or driving there alone in a 4x4 V8 Chevy Suburban, since at planetary scale it doesn't change anything.

I mean, nothing matters anymore with that kind of logic. (Short of a global nuclear war, I guess.)

If the people in that area of California can stop burning fossil fuels and instead use clean electricity (which is available there), that's a positive, not negative, step. Therefore, I'm for it. Why are you against it?



Quote:
If you really want to save the planet you should start by offing yourself as that will prevent far more fossil fuel usage overall than using Tesla or cooking on an electric stove instead of a gas one.
Interestingly, when I started in real estate my hippie gf at the time was blaming me for being a planet-destroying capitalist, and using my time "poorly" from the point of view of saving the environment. Then I converted several of my (old, flawed, cheap) buildings from fossil fuels to all electric, and also greatly improved the poor thermal insulation (very good savings, too), and was able to own her in our argument by demonstrating (with yearly figures) I had just done a lot more for the planet than she ever had.
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  #99  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 1:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Dude, Natural gas is in literally thousands of products you use all the time. Even if you stopped all energy uses (which you wont as its one of the most cost effective ways to produce lots of electricity) it would still be vital to how your life functions.

Its one of the most important resources on earth:
Exactly. Thank you for bringing reason into this thread.

Similar to how folks say we should stop using oil. WELL... they fail to realize that oil is not just used for gasoline, but for a plethora of uses. Plastics, synthetic material which are used everywhere. Oil based products are also used in the healthcare industry. Petrochemicals and their derivatives. The list of their uses goes on. A lot of modern society, the items we use, would not be possible without oil.

Like natural gas, it is also one the cleanest fossil fuels out there.

So IDK what these folks want to be honest. They want to ban nuclear power, the want to get rid of petrochemicals and oil... but I guess they will have plenty of time to think about it.... WHEN they are living in a van down by the river!

The use of the action of "banning" always seems to be the remedy to a lot of issues.

I can understand the use of solar energy, that I get, for homes or businesses, but folks... unless there are advances in something some of you might not know, called "material science", things like oil will remain important, and natural gas will remain a key component in our energy portfolio until advances in tech allow for items or applications to use lower wattage and energy consumption.

With that said, I hope that we do realize that natural gas is still a key component in many sectors. Massive economic damage will result if more cities or even states follow suit, and the uses for some of our daily products will be effected.

Fortunately, seems to be isolated to pockets of California, but possibly instead of minimal effective solutions, how about tackling the traffic and congestion issue. The housing issue.

This is doing nothing but once again, adding more requirements and codes... and are why developers and residents are bailing the state.

Its why policy has to be a long term implementation for it to truly be effective, and most importantly, cost effective towards both residents and the business environment.
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  #100  
Old Posted Sep 11, 2019, 2:00 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by chris08876 View Post
Exactly. Thank you for bringing reason into this thread.

Similar to how folks say we should stop using oil. WELL... they fail to realize that oil is not just used for gasoline, but for a plethora of uses. Plastics, synthetic material which are used everywhere. Oil based products are also used in the healthcare industry. Petrochemicals and their derivatives. The list of their uses goes on. A lot of modern society, the items we use, would not be possible without oil.
Well, that's almost what our side of the argument is saying here - given that O&G has a lot of uses, let's not be so dumb as to stupidly burn it for heat (what a waste, when it could be used instead as a component in other industries, such as... all the ones you just listed ) when we can easily use solar/wind/nuclear etc. for that exact purpose.

Analogy... let's say you find many boxes of walnut flooring. It's free, it's yours. You could set it on fire and cook yourself a pizza on it. OR, you could install it in your house or condo, boosting its value permanently.
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