Increase in Major civil disturbances

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by flar

I don't really think this was a "major" civil disturbance. A bunch of drunken idiots, more like it. Reminds me of the Queen's homecoming a few years ago. These things happen occasionally, it actually surprises me that we don't have more of this. A lot of pre-modern cultures had culturally sanctioned festivities where most of their moral codes were temporarily lifted, engaging in orgies of sex and violence, and even cannibalism in some cases. Our culture is quite dysfunctional and sometimes we lack the proper safety valves.

And, no, I'm not suggesting we need violent cannabalistic orgies. Or do we?

Excellent point. Not the human-eating, but the need for a chance to blow off steam. Everybody but us puritan North Americans seems to understand this. When was the last time the niceties of the day-to-day were suspended so that you could enjoy an intoxicant or two with a bunch of friendly people on your street or on the main drag of your town or city?

Actually, you have to admit, habfanman's got a point about Montreal and open alcohol in public. You don't really see recklessly drunken riots so much in Montreal. It seems like the rioting in Montreal is usually political.

Which gets one to thinking about stereotypical contrasts between the two solitudes: Quebeckers don't get into fights when they drink, but they do get passionate and wreak havoc for political causes; Ontarians, by contrast, don't really get all that worked up about politics, but get too many of us liquored up in one place and fights and mayhem are guaranteed.

What conclusions can one draw from this? Do Quebeckers have it the right way, in that they only come to loggerheads about things that really matter? Or, are Ontarians so complacent about politics because we've got it pretty good here, so the only occasion for blowing off steam is when we get pissed?

I think I like the southern European attitude to alcohol, where you begin to have a bit of wine with your dinner at age 10. The English-speaking world has a problem with puritan denial leading to binge drinking on the weekends. Areas with bars become war zones on Saturday nights, even in a sedate little town like Stratford. It's not pretty.

[Spocket]

I don't know that there's really been an increase in civil disturbances .
I mean , yes , in the past few years we've seen riots but it's not the first time Canada has had rioting .
The thing that bothers me about all of it is how pointless and unnecessary it's been . Nobody is rioting to secure fair treatment or right some wrong . They're just doing it because it sounds like a fun idea . When I picture the average Canadian rioter , I see some 20 year old goof whose childhood was spent being indulged , endlessly praised , and educated in everything but consideration for others . Basically , a bunch of spoiled punks running amok because they have no sense of responsibility.

What they really need is a good ass-whooping .

[MTLskyline]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Excellent point. Not the human-eating, but the need for a chance to blow off steam. Everybody but us puritan North Americans seems to understand this. When was the last time the niceties of the day-to-day were suspended so that you could enjoy an intoxicant or two with a bunch of friendly people on your street or on the main drag of your town or city?

Actually, you have to admit, habfanman's got a point about Montreal and open alcohol in public. You don't really see recklessly drunken riots so much in Montreal. It seems like the rioting in Montreal is usually political.

Which gets one to thinking about stereotypical contrasts between the two solitudes: Quebeckers don't get into fights when they drink, but they do get passionate and wreak havoc for political causes; Ontarians, by contrast, don't really get all that worked up about politics, but get too many of us liquored up in one place and fights and mayhem are guaranteed.

What conclusions can one draw from this? Do Quebeckers have it the right way, in that they only come to loggerheads about things that really matter? Or, are Ontarians so complacent about politics because we've got it pretty good here, so the only occasion for blowing off steam is when we get pissed?

I think I like the southern European attitude to alcohol, where you begin to have a bit of wine with your dinner at age 10. The English-speaking world has a problem with puritan denial leading to binge drinking on the weekends. Areas with bars become war zones on Saturday nights, even in a sedate little town like Stratford. It's not pretty.

I agree with with you for the most part. Alcohol abuse does not seem to be as major of an issue here compared to elsewhere. That's not to say that there isn't any though.

Montreal does have a history of drunken riots and looting. Remember a few years ago when the Habs won a couple of playoff games? http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...066l4.6.5l15l0 I was never so ashamed to be a Montrealer as I was when that went on.

[whatnext]

18 to 25 year olds + booze = riots.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by whatnext

18 to 25 year olds + booze = riots.

It wasn't always this way . It's happened but how many riots have you been in ? I've never participated in any myself and I suspect that most of the posters here haven't either .

I'm not being critical of you here by the way . I get your point and to a lesser extent agree with it . I just don't think that it's any sort of inevitability when you give young adults (and I hesitate to call rioters of any age adults) the opportunity to get blotto . I just think that these people were raised wrong in the first place with no sense of civic responsibility . No little cop in their head saying "Hey ! That's a stupid idea ... don't do it. People will be affected by this in a very negative way. Think of others for a change ."

[Acajack]

I think a lot of Canadians have what might be called a "perfection complex" (Canada is this nice place where nothing bad ever happens), and so when things like this do occur, it shocks them out of their comfort zone.

This reaction always surprises me because if you know our history well, you can find plenty of examples that show that Canadians are the same type of homo sapiens that you find elsewhere on the planet, and that we too are prone to do bad stuff on occasion.

I don't know if it is because of the saturation of American media coverage that we get that highlights for years on end bad stuff (Rodney King riots, Waco, Texas, beltway snipers, etc.) that happens down there in A&E documentaries, Dateline NBC reports and Hollywood movies, whereas bad Canadian stuff gets covered in the media for a short time and then simply disappears into a cultural vortex. Or attention on it just stays local whereas media in other parts of Canada tend to focus on happenings stateside.

I mean, how many people in Ontario would even be aware of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWr_-_vfo6s

A perfect example of how dirty laundry is kept hush-hush in Canada: another story I was looking for info about is the 2010 cross burnings in Nova Scotia. Yet I can't even find one single bloody video on YouTube about it!

[chrisallard5454]

Montreal Riot over Metallica Cancellation when Hetfield was burned followed by a typical Axil Rose no show. This was before my time though. Being a twenty year old this is why I don't drink. Because when I do I get that feeling of lost control, and I don't like it. Since I have become legal (2 years) I have had a few beers a handful of times.

Most kids my age really just don't care, especially when inebriated. I call them kids, because most of them are in fact kids when sized up. Anyone who through's 2x4's at police officers would be labelled kid in my opinion.

On a positive note, Fanshawe has already begun the expulsion process of many students. Enabling these kids to get a proper punishment for once in their lives.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by vid

Fuck God for always recklessly endangering his own creation, for which he often seems to have contempt.

there were a lot of ancient religions in which the gods openly hated us. the idea that god loves us and is the source of love is quite modern.

i don't know why maltheism went out of fashion - it has tremendous explanatory power.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think a lot of Canadians have what might be called a "perfection complex" (Canada is this nice place where nothing bad ever happens), and so when things like this do occur, it shocks them out of their comfort zone.

I think Canadians blow things out of proportion because they don't deal with serious problems very frequently. A group of unfortunate community college kids torching a news van in London, Ontario is not much of a story.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think Canadians blow things out of proportion because they don't deal with serious problems very frequently. A group of unfortunate community college kids torching a news van in London, Ontario is not much of a story.

Huh? A group of teenagers/young adults rioting and setting fire to things would be news in just about any country you could care to name, save perhaps for those where the news is heavily censored.

[Acajack]

Canada is very much a "keeping up appearances" / "brush problems under the carpet" type of country.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Huh? A group of teenagers/young adults rioting and setting fire to things would be news in just about any country you could care to name, save perhaps for those where the news is heavily censored.

I understand why it's a news item. Canada is a boring country. We take what we can get.

Your description above is awfully vague. What's "a group of teenagers/young adults rioting and setting fire to things"? 3 people? 300,000 people? How long did it last? What was the level of property damage? Were any people injured or killed?

You are talking about a large class of events that differ in orders of magnitude. That's a crucial but often ignored distinction between events (this thread's title says "major civil disturbances"). I don't know if it's bad reporting or innumerate readers or what.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by someone123

I understand why it's a news item. Canada is a boring country. We take what we can get.

Your description above is awfully vague. What's "a group of teenagers/young adults rioting and setting fire to things"? 3 people? 300,000 people? How long did it last? What was the level of property damage? Were any people injured or killed?

You are talking about a large class of events that differ in orders of magnitude. That's a crucial but often ignored distinction between events (this thread's title says "major civil disturbances"). I don't know if it's bad reporting or innumerate readers or what.

I think that having fire crews and police being attacked and assaulted by throngs of drunken rioters during a riot is pretty major in any city.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by north 42

I think that having fire crews and police being attacked and assaulted by throngs of drunken rioters during a riot is pretty major in any city.

I dunno. I'm pretty sure that stuff southwest of Toronto with ridiculous cutesy English names is all made up.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

Your description above is awfully vague. What's "a group of teenagers/young adults rioting and setting fire to things"? 3 people? 300,000 people? How long did it last? What was the level of property damage? Were any people injured or killed?

What happened in London Saturday would be national news anywhere except in countries with heavy censorship like China, where it wouldn't be reported nationally unless it served the political purposes of the central leadership.

I get your point about not all that much happening in Canada. But it's simply not true that these types of incidents don't make national news elsewhere, because they do.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

there were a lot of ancient religions in which the gods openly hated us. the idea that god loves us and is the source of love is quite modern.

i don't know why maltheism went out of fashion - it has tremendous explanatory power.

There is still a strong tradition in Taiwan of not saying nice things to your spouse or your kids for fear of making the gods and the spirits of dead relatives jealous and spiteful. Parents are essentially "protecting" their families when they insult and belittle their kids. People there still use terms like "my worthless wife" when talking to others.

I'll never forget a sincere discussion I once had about religion with the mother of an ESL student. "So, you Westerners don't believe your dead relatives are up there watching everything you do?"

"No," I said.

"You don't have to buy ghost money and burn it at the temple to keep them economically flush in the afterlife? You don't have to be careful all the time for fear of offending them?

"That's right."

This was a revelation to her. "Things must be a lot simpler that way," she said.

Uh, yeah. Simpler and...not insane.

[vid]

They burn money to keep their dead ancestors flush with cash. We bury the rotting corpses of our dead ancestors so that they have a body to go back to in Heaven. Same difference.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by vid

They burn money to keep their dead ancestors flush with cash. We bury the rotting corpses of our dead ancestors so that they have a body to go back to in Heaven. Same difference.

Wildly off topic, but your characterization is off. Cremation has only really become the norm in Taiwan in the past few decades. And the Christian tradition in the West is that you leave your corporeal body behind when your "spirit" ascends into heaven (or the other place). I think even Christians can't deny that what gets put into the coffin quickly degenerates.

I think there are different orders of nuttiness. While the religious/Christian idea of a spirit going somewhere after you die is cuckoo, the idea that all the gods and all of your dead relatives are hovering above you and interfering in your life is utter madness in this day and age.

[eemy]

I don't know. I have a hard time qualifying superstitions with varying degrees of madness. They're all mad. I don't see why one is any more so than the other.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

there were a lot of ancient religions in which the gods openly hated us. the idea that god loves us and is the source of love is quite modern.

Its been popular for at least 2000 years now, wouldn't quite call that modern.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Canada is very much a "keeping up appearances" / "brush problems under the carpet" type of country.

But this is the exact opposite. Making much ado about nothing. Bunch of drunk kids set stuff on fire and throw stuff at police - major civil disturbance! This country is going to hell in a handbasket!

If anything Canadians are more likely to overreact to negative situations rather than "brush it under the carpet", because as has been mentioned, this is a pretty calm, boring country (in a political context).