I keep hearing "Toronto is coming close to Chicago" but I dont see it

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Doady

The way the river goes through downtown Chicago like that is really incredible. The lakefront and riverfront is Toronto's weakness compared to Chicago, probably more than anything else.

I'm still annoyed they voted to rebuild the Gardiner Expressway. Toronto's waterfront will never match Chicago's. Never.

Toronto won't ever have a downtown waterway bounded by skyscrapers. It's a fantastic asset for Chicago. Regarding the lakefront, Chicago's used to be a ton nicer but I don't think that's true any more. Queens Quay has had a lot of work done on it and what's between it and the lake is more attractive for pedestrians than its counter part in Chicago. Millennium Park is great but only one part of their lakefront. What's further north is a beach with a highway next to it.

I'm annoyed about the Gardiner too but it's becoming less obtrusive with each north-south link built and each new skyscraper constructed next to it. The bigger obstacle is the rail tracks but that might end up being a blessing in disguise. I'm convinced we'll end up getting it decked with a massive downtown park both to the east and west of Union Station. If that rail line never existed there's no way Toronto would have had the foresight to set it aside for green space/parkland.

We'll get where we want to go. It's just going to take another 15-20 years of frenetic construction before it all comes together. Till then, perhaps we should stop lamenting what's missing and enjoy the ride.

[kolchak]

This highrise site is a good example of what I was talking about earlier - how the layout of Chicago's pre war streets dictates the tighter placement of new high rise construction taking up all of the available footprint . This is what gives a city that 'mid rise, high rise' density.it also makes the skyline very 3D.

Originally Posted by harryc

Apr 10
Beyound the parking (podium)


Close to the El

[kolchak]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Millennium Park is great but only one part of their lakefront. What's further north is a beach with a highway next to it..

You need to get out more lol

Chicago's best park and one of the great city parks in the world - Lincoln Park:

Pinterest LP
There are also many gorgeous pre war high rises flush up against the park streetwalls.

Yo Chicago
map from 1897

Northwestern.edu

[kolchak]

Studio Gang

[Doady]

Lincoln Park looks nice but it definitely would be better without the freeway running through it. I think that criticism is fair.

Toronto has lacked such grand vision as Chicago, to have such a large, contiguous waterfront park system, and tall buildings lined up beautifully alongside. But for all of Chicago's vision and the attention it obviously gave to its waterfront, Lake Shore Drive does seem very out of place.

What's the story behind that anyways? Are there any plans to fix Lake Shore Drive? A narrower, pedestrianized road with LRT like Queens Quay would be better.

There are things Toronto can learn from Chicago, but there are things Chicago can learn from Toronto as well.

[kolchak]

Well Lake Shore Drive does not run through the middle of most of the park but it does cut off the shore and thats a shame.

There are tunnels however that run under it and access isnt really hindered.

The southern portion of the park is just beautiful. With roaming gardens and paths with many historic buildings and statuary.
The city meets the park uninterrupted there. Its a fantastic urban garden.

[kolchak]

The beautiful Beaux Arts Conservatoty

SWDG
Grant Memorial



4bpblogspot

[kolchak]

Technically Lake Shore Drive also is not a full freeway. For example there are no trucks allowed on it and the speed limit is 40mph.

That makes me curious as to what kind of road the Gardner is? Is it a full freeway? Or does it also have similar restrictions?

[koops65]

It's a true highway, 6 lanes wide, the speed limit is 90 km/hr (55 mph) with controlled on/off ramps.

[The Macallan]

Jumping in late on the discussion here. I'll probably repeat some things that have been said previously but here goes anyways. This business of Toronto "coming close to Chicago" depends on what criteria we use. If it's liveability tht we are measuring, and that surely must be of enormous importance in judging any city, Toronto has been rated well ahead of its US counterpart by, among others, the Economist Intelligence Unit. There isn't much point arguing about that here, however. Nor is there much point in debating the merits of specific attributes of the cities. Chicago has Lincoln Park! Toronto has the islands! And so on and so on until tedium rules. This is a site that specializes in skyrscrapers and tall structures and that, I think is what we should be comparing here.

In that respect, Chicage remains well ahead of Toronto, I think. Though the CN Tower remains the tallest free standing structure on the continent, even a quick glance at the charts and diagrams on this site indicates that the Windy City has a greater number of tall and supertall buildings than does Hogtown. I myself would judge that the Chicago structures are also more architecturally interesting than their Toronto equivalents. (Though architectural interest, like beauty, rests in the eye of the beholder.). Comparing the two Trump Towers is an interesting exercise, in which Chicago comes out ahead, I regret to say. Perhaps this comparison is a small version of the architectural comparison of the cities as a whole. When it comes to skylines and skyscrapers, Chicago remains number two on the continent, behind only New York City.

What can be said, however, is that Toronto is now definitely number three in the skyline sweepstakes. Before the present building boom, I would have said Toronto was certainy in the top ten and maybe in the top five when it comes to North American city skylines. Houston would have been number three probably. Now, however, you would have to be a major league Houston homer to fail to admit that Toronto has certainly bypassed the Texas city. The same could be said about any other candidate city, IMO. I also think it would be fair to say Toronto is gaining on Chicago. But Toronto is not there yet and it's still not "close," IMO.

[kolchak]

Originally Posted by The Macallan

Nor is there much point in debating the merits of specific attributes of the cities. Chicago has Lincoln Park! Toronto has the islands! And so on and so on until tedium rules. This is a site that specializes in skyrscrapers and tall structures and that, I think is what we should be comparing here.

Agreed. In regards to Lincoln Park, I was partially responding to the absurd comment posted previously:

"Millennium Park is great but only one part of their lakefront. What's further north is a beach with a highway next to it."

Also I have written a lot here about the differences in build form between the two cities and how Chicago's leads to tighter and more compact placement of new high rises than Toronto - thus creating a very different sort of skyline with a lot more 'contiguous' architecture if you will. Street-walls directly adjacent to large parks that front and 'present' a framing for the City skyline is something that Chicago has done very well with.
Streetwalls fronting different parts of Lincoln Park:



I also am not a great fan of "quality of living" or "livability" indices since many cities around the world that I have enjoyed and are very urban rank astonishingly low in such studies. I don't necessarily like Austin, Texas for example but really enjoy New Orleans, Louisiana.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by kolchak

Well Lake Shore Drive does not run through the middle of most of the park but it does cut off the shore and thats a shame.

We did a similar thing with High Park/Sunnyside in the west end. High Park used to be ram packed with people in summer who'd make their way south to Sunnyside along the lake. It had a Coney Island feel to it. A highway was built between High Park and Sunnyside which predictably went into steep decline. All that's left of it is a pavillion and outdoor swimming pool. People still stroll by but that part of the waterfront is a shadow of what it once was.

Btw, the conversation earlier was about the waterfront. Lincoln Park isn't on the waterfront any more; it's next to a highway that's on the waterfront. The photos above show precisely that. I'm not sure what I said that was absurd.

[kolchak]

[QUOTE=isaidso;7773467
Btw, the conversation earlier was about the waterfront. Lincoln Park isn't on the waterfront any more; it's next to a highway that's on the waterfront. The photos above show precisely that. I'm not sure what I said that was absurd.[/QUOTE]

So the northern half of Lincoln Park is next to the lake - from Belmont harbor up. This is where Lake Shore Drive bisects the park (see map below.)

It is true that LSD runs through the park and its not very nice that it does. However at least it carries a smaller footprint than a freeway. Small entrances with no loops and low overpasses with no room for trucks.

The infrastructure doesn't block off the shore side of the park that much really. Fullerton Avenue overpass (not sure why that guy has a Go Mavericks shirt on... )

Bike Chicago - pic

[kolchak]

Of course there is the potential for this... lol

Democratic underground- pic

[kolchak]

Oh and the park at least is also not up against LSD in the southern portion, it's separated by a waterway and the park is sizable enough that you don't notice the Drive from within.

But it's true it's a blight nonetheless. There are plans to tunnel some portions but we will see how far they get to actually happening.

OK I guess I've pushed the limit here on straying off topic. I will be perusing the Toronto threads and hope to make it there to visit soon. Thanks all for a good discussion!

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by kolchak

It is true that LSD runs through the park and its not very nice that it does. However at least it carries a smaller footprint than a freeway. Small entrances with no loops and low overpasses with no room for trucks.

The infrastructure doesn't block off the shore side of the park that much really. Fullerton Avenue overpass (not sure why that guy has a Go Mavericks shirt on... )

Alright.

In Toronto a ton of people wear sports clothing from cities and schools they have zero connection to. I've always found it bizarre but they wear it for fashion. Some of them don't even follow the team they seem to be a supporter of. Neither do they know anything about said team.

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Alright.

In Toronto a ton of people wear sports clothing from cities and schools they have zero connection to. I've always found it bizarre but they wear it for fashion. Some of them don't even follow the team they seem to be a supporter of. Neither do they know anything about said team.

I cringe everytime I see people from Mississauga or some suburb of Toronto wearing one of those off-branch indie fashion lines saying "T-Dot" or "Toronto is my Home" and they don't even know the city that much at all. Same goes for sports, and all those "We the North" jerseys and such.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by GeneralLeeTPHLS

I cringe everytime I see people from Mississauga or some suburb of Toronto wearing one of those off-branch indie fashion lines saying "T-Dot" or "Toronto is my Home" and they don't even know the city that much at all. Same goes for sports, and all those "We the North" jerseys and such.

It's the same city, even if it's a different municipality. Is knowing Scarborough or North York better than knowing Mississauga for knowing the city?

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

Originally Posted by Beedok

It's the same city, even if it's a different municipality. Is knowing Scarborough or North York better than knowing Mississauga for knowing the city?

Now hold on, I mean it's just strange if someone tries to "rep" a city they don't know well because they've lived in a suburb for most of their lives. This follows the idea that's been replicated for decades. To sell merchandise pertaining to not only a place, but expanding into sports memorabilia and really any kind of memorabilia for anything, in which a manufacturer/distributor/business will sell this clothing to the public, and by the publics understanding they can purchase the products advertised by the business on their own will (of course).

The thing is, however, if you ask someone (say wearing a Calgary Flames jersey) about what game is coming up with that team and who their playing against, and they have no clue and they say they don't really watch sports and just want to support the team and their city, it makes it seem quite redundant for the person to be wearing that jersey, except for "supporting their team/city".

I understand that this post and my previous post sound like childish bickering, but I just find it to be a bit annoying , and really unappealing, to see someone with the ideal of supporting something they don't really have a whole lot of knowledge or substantial care about.

(Apologies if anyone finds me to be *****ing about a stupid issue. I'm curious how Chicago will have their own way of "repping" themselves. I'd wonder if their clothing is even much different to say something touristic in New York.

[Doady]

Do people of the City of Toronto seriously believe that Mississauga (formerly Toronto Township) is culturally separated from Toronto, people of Mississauga hardly spend any time in Toronto, don't know much about the city, don't work in Toronto, don't follow Toronto sports teams, etc.? I always find Toronto's elitist and isolationist attitudes very odd.

I always wonder if places at the border like Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern, etc. would have so many social problems if the City of Toronto didn't ban public transit from the 905 from operating within its borders and tried to cooperate and integrate with the 905 transit more, and give residents in these isolated communities more opportunities to work in the 905. The City of Toronto's always trying to be an island in itself and I think that's to its own detriment, especially to its poorest neighbourhoods.