Edmonton's River Valley Development Phobia

[Cleisthenis]

First post, abbreviated from my blog:

On Grierson hill we’ve river valley development to thank for the Conference Centre and Louise McKinney Park.
This is what it looks like when you get it done right:



...

Primary opposition to re-development seems to be innocently misplaced by those with a strong environmental ethos, but who may also be in denial of the city they live in.

Denial of the very real costs to the City in terms of services, emissions, environment, finances and quality of life. Denial of the decisions we all have to make in terms of our transportation choices, consumption of goods, and urban redevelopment in support of a more sustainable urban environment.

We aren’t a small prairie town anymore.

If you want to live in the country, move there. You don’t get to stable your horses 10 minutes from downtown.

We know we need to grow, but how and where need thoughtful consideration and deliberation as our undeveloped agricultural land is highly valuable.

...

What makes The Quarters, The Muni Lands and I’d argue some of these under utilized river valley sites so attractive is the opportunity to build a brand new urban landscape from scratch, that represents our higher social, environmental and design ethic.

In the end, we should increase net public green space in the river valley where more people can enjoy it on a regular basis, and identify the sensitive habitats that need to be kept off-limits. I would not expect such a professional environmental analysis to put either the Buena Vista Dog Park or the Equine Fields on such a list.

We need to be able to discuss the specific pros and cons of all possible sites and enable council to make decisions with a full spectrum of knowledge.

This shouldn’t be taboo:

Links, more images are available on the full blog post, where comments are appreciated here:
http://getsthere.com/?p=171#comments

I'll lurk around here to respond to any questions or thoughts you might have as well.

[240glt]

Sooo.... what point are you trying to make exactly ?


I notice this is a copy & paste from C2E

[Cleisthenis]

Simply that we need to get over our Phobia if we are going to address our growth challenges. That it's possible to develop parts of the river valley without compromising it.

[240glt]

Well, while I could deal with some very select development (even non-permanent development) I think that the river valley should be left as is.

It's already well used by the people who enjoy it, I would not want to see it compromised in any way.

[Daveography]

What growth challenges would those be? Are we running out of space to develop? Heck, even in the inner city, are we running out of space to infill and intensify?

As someone else already said, you're proposing a solution that is looking for a problem...

...a nonexistent problem at that.

[Cleisthenis]

Actually you're right. We should build the new conference centre on the ECCA lands.

[ue]

We have enough densification potential in already somewhat developed central areas. The River Valley should be an absolute last resort. It's got some nice beauty and should be kept as such.

[naidoo]

This seems like a C2E style thread.

[Cleisthenis]

Originally Posted by naidoo

This seems like a C2E style thread.

What with all the closed-mindedness and bashing of ideas? What's the style for skyscraper page?

[240glt]

^ developing the river valley is a bad idea. Period.


The style around here ? Well lets just say that the smart kids play in this sandbox.

[newfangled]

Grierson Hill, Rossdale, Danzer's folly and even a chunk of the Kinsmen ball diamonds - have at 'em. Maintain the contiguity/continuity of the trail system, and lets build us a Forks or Coal Harbour or urban beach or whatever.

But - as in the c2e post - the idea that densifying the area around the valley zoo will save farmland, or that it will somehow be Green is a complete non-starter. There are far better places for housing thousands of people. Once all of those places are filled up, there will still be about a dozen more levels of better places for housing thousands of people.

It also falls for the trap that public land has no value just because we don't have to buy it. And from that follows the belief that farmland (of which there is lots, even if we do waste more of it everyday) must be saved because it is more valuable than urban parkland (of which there is a comparatively limited supply).

The real calculation isn't that farmland > underused parkland, but that farmland > underused urban land.

[s211]

This could end up a really amazing project, and something for the city to show off. To the extent the expansion would be harmonious both with the existing structure and the lay of the land, this could be quite the showpiece.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by newfangled

Grierson Hill, Rossdale, Danzer's folly and even a chunk of the Kinsmen ball diamonds - have at 'em. Maintain the contiguity/continuity of the trail system, and lets build us a Forks or Coal Harbour or urban beach or whatever.

But - as in the c2e post - the idea that densifying the area around the valley zoo will save farmland, or that it will somehow be Green is a complete non-starter. There are far better places for housing thousands of people. Once all of those places are filled up, there will still be about a dozen more levels of better places for housing thousands of people.

It also falls for the trap that public land has no value just because we don't have to buy it. And from that follows the belief that farmland (of which there is lots, even if we do waste more of it everyday) must be saved because it is more valuable than urban parkland (of which there is a comparatively limited supply).

The real calculation isn't that farmland > underused parkland, but that farmland > underused urban land.

word.

I can honestly say that other than golfing in the past, yesterday was my second time in 25 years actually using the river valley for any sort of recreation.

As I jogged by the Rossdale plant all I could think about was how much potential there is to turn that into something amazing and have services and facilities to turn that part of the river valley into one hell of a destination.

[ue]

Originally Posted by newfangled

Grierson Hill, Rossdale, Danzer's folly and even a chunk of the Kinsmen ball diamonds - have at 'em. Maintain the contiguity/continuity of the trail system, and lets build us a Forks or Coal Harbour or urban beach or whatever.

But - as in the c2e post - the idea that densifying the area around the valley zoo will save farmland, or that it will somehow be Green is a complete non-starter. There are far better places for housing thousands of people. Once all of those places are filled up, there will still be about a dozen more levels of better places for housing thousands of people.

It also falls for the trap that public land has no value just because we don't have to buy it. And from that follows the belief that farmland (of which there is lots, even if we do waste more of it everyday) must be saved because it is more valuable than urban parkland (of which there is a comparatively limited supply).

The real calculation isn't that farmland > underused parkland, but that farmland > underused urban land.

Exactly!

Even after obvious spots like the Arena District, Warehouse District, Strathcona Junction, and Quarters district are developed out, it's not like Northern Oliver can't densify from it's low rise walk ups or the North edge continue densifying. Then there's the Muni lands - hello mega densification opportunity! And it's not like if we're really scarce for land we couldn't start putting up low rise and mid rise condos and apts in McCauley, Alberta Avenue, Bonnie Doon, Westmount, McKernan, etc. which has already begun. The thousands that were flooding in in 2006 could have easily fueled 1000s of units of condos in the Warehouse District, but no, we get the developments of Ellerslie Road, Skyview, west of AHD West End, northern Sherwood Park, the Meadows, etc.

Isn't preserving natural land and keeping it in somewhat natural state like what is most of the river valley a "green" thing in itself? Yes, suburbia isn't really green, but that doesnt mean we must immediately head to our lush parkland!

Other than the existing spots (which are rare) that have been developed like Rossdale and Riverdale, we don't need much more development in the valley. Have a manicured park like LMP and some rec spots like Kinsmen and then a few golf courses, otherwise keep it natural. The rest of the manicured urban plazas can be within the urban fabric where the high density development can easily occur.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Cleisthenis

What with all the closed-mindedness and bashing of ideas? What's the style for skyscraper page?

Oh boy here we go with another "wah wah people on the internet are questioning and challenging my awesome idea boo hoo" post.

Give me a break. If your idea is so great, then keep arguing for it and tell us why it's so great. Don't come whining that narrow-minded people (which is actually the antonym you're looking for) are "bashing" your idea just because they disagree with you.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

word.

I can honestly say that other than golfing in the past, yesterday was my second time in 25 years actually using the river valley for any sort of recreation.

As I jogged by the Rossdale plant all I could think about was how much potential there is to turn that into something amazing and have services and facilities to turn that part of the river valley into one hell of a destination.

As the area around Rossdale is semi-developed anyways I can see the plant being re-purposed as something really neat. However, developing any part of the natural land is absolutely a non-starter. You may not use the valley, but a lot of us do many times a week.

[Coldrsx]

^There is an obvious balance and level of respect needed with the river valley, but I very much do hope we improve the spaces that are not natural anymore and work to make them both more intense uses and restore them to a more natural connection.

[tallisgood]

Any development should only enhance the useability of the river valley, and make it attractive for residents and tourists. Things like golf courses (of which we have a few) are one example. It would be nice if there were some some more high-rise hotels overlooking the valley. I like the Edmonton Queen, and would be open to similar kinds of businesses operating in the valley, like a water taxi carrying people to various spots.

I also liked Mayor Mandel's idea of building (I forget what it's called) a kind of half dam to raise the water level and make the river more useable for recreational activities (but that will never happen, unfortunately).

However, I do agree with you insofar as this is Alberta. You can drive 20 mins in any direction and be in virtual wilderness; there is no reason for a puritanical drive to preserve the river valley as some sort of wilderness. However, any development should at least respect its function as a parks and recreation type area, and perhaps a lure for tourists some day in the future.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by tallisgood

However, I do agree with you insofar as this is Alberta. You can drive 20 mins in any direction and be in virtual wilderness; there is no reason for a puritanical drive to preserve the river valley as some sort of wilderness.

The beauty of the river valley is that you don't even have to drive to get there. Not everyone in Edmonton has a car nor wants to drive, remember, and that accessibility of the valley is part of the attraction.

[SHOFEAR]

You may not use the valley, but a lot of us do many times a week.

You sound like one of those greedy airport not for sale people who likes having their own private airport for their hobby plan minutes from downtown.

Very few Edmontonians use the valley. Anything that opens in up and makes it more user friendly is a good thing. Im not suggesting we pave trails and build a boardwalk all the way from the Fort to Devon, but anything within the city limits that already has development encroaching the river (Rossdale, Convention Center, Kinsmen, Fort Edmonton, Zoo etc) should be fair game.