Sacramento - New Arena Plan

[innov8]

Racking up more city debt in the name of an arena is hardly better than doing nothing
CAGeoNerd. The city is leveraging 35 years of future revenue and it’s still unclear what the true
total cost will be to resolve some of the handwavy math involved. Sacramento officials
may have won the Kings back, but they still need to figure out how to pay for them.

How old are you NikeFutbolero? Why would I be angry? I have never said I did not want
the Kings to stay; I was a season ticket holder for a decade. My concern has always
been about what the true cost will be to the city and why the city has not been
completely open about how much risk they are on the hook for.

After watching the city for years and years do the complete opposite of what was
agreed to years before (example: North Natomas went from “Smart Growth” in 1994
with walkable neighborhoods and dense housing to what we see today). You too should
be asking “what if” and not just believe everything that is said. If the deal goes
sideways and projections fall short, the city would be on the hook for that like in
Oakland and Stockton, where they were short paying the bondholders and those
payments came out of the city’s general fund and other services have been cut to make those payments.

[PHX31]

Can you guys from Sacramento fill me in on your thoughts on Mayor Kevin Johnson, especially after the recent news about the Kings? And how does the city in general feel about him?

I only ask because he was my favorite player on the Suns when I was a kid, so I'm wondering if he is liked or not. I know next to nothing about any of the details of this saga, only that it seems KJ worked hard to keep the Kings in Sacramento when it seemed like the Kings to Seattle was a done deal. But maybe you guys don't want the Kings (?).

My favorite anecdote about KJ is: In the early 2000s I was a student at ASU... It's a huge campus, but there are some areas that can be "off-the-beaten-path" and dark at night. I was walking from the gym to my bike one evening and here comes KJ down the path by himself with no one else around. This was long after he retired. I just said hi and he smiled and said hi or something. It was just completely random to see him there at that time. Check that, I just remembered an even weirder story. It was circa 2007, and the first weekend of March Madness. I was flying to Omaha and had a layover in Denver. My GF and I stopped in a terminal restaurant to grab some food and watch the tournament games. I noticed KJ was sitting at a table in the same bar. His Cal Bears had just upset someone (can't remember) in the first round. I had my girlfriend go over and talk to him and have him sign my brackets next to the Cal bracket. He wrote "Go Bears! KJ" in his typical autograph style.

Not that anyone cares, I just had fun typing that out and reminiscining.

[Majin]

Originally Posted by innov8

After watching the city for years and years do the complete opposite of what was
agreed to years before (example: North Natomas went from “Smart Growth” in 1994
with walkable neighborhoods and dense housing to what we see today).

And oddly enough, the person you and "I liked her ideas a lot more than I like yours, so I don't mind the comparison at all" wburg (link) revere so much is the exact person responsible for this:



And guess who else was anti arena?

[Majin]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Can you guys from Sacramento fill me in on your thoughts on Mayor Kevin Johnson, especially after the recent news about the Kings? And how does the city in general feel about him?

I only ask because he was my favorite player on the Suns when I was a kid, so I'm wondering if he is liked or not. I know next to nothing about any of the details of this saga, only that it seems KJ worked hard to keep the Kings in Sacramento when it seemed like the Kings to Seattle was a done deal. But maybe you guys don't want the Kings (?).

Most people in the city love him, except for a few vocal minority on forums like this who wish Fargo was still in charge so she can bring us more suburban strip malls.

[enigma99a]

Originally Posted by Majin

Most people in the city love him, except for a few vocal minority on forums like this who wish Fargo was still in charge so she can bring us more suburban strip malls.

LOL... more strip malls! Down with civic pride and redevelopment.

[kryptos]

The teabaggers will whine about the money, but who cares. old people hate change anyways. professional complainers always stand in the way of progress. SAC IS BACK

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by kryptos

The teabaggers will whine about the money, but who cares. old people hate change anyways. professional complainers always stand in the way of progress. SAC IS BACK

I guess I missed where Heather Fargo joined the tea party. And those lawyers, Patrick Soluri and Jeff Anderson, who sued over the city contribution, look like sure tea party types.

And some of the opponents here, like wburg, a card-carrying "teabagger" I'm telling ya!

You're really an idiot kryptos. Thanks for your usual brilliant insight...

[ozone]

Fargo is kind of weird. She would often speak about the need for smart and responsible growth and then she ended up promoting all that stupid and irresponsible growth in Natomas. K. Johnson is Oak Park/Curtis Park so he has a closer to understanding what urban is, but not really. At least to me he doesn't yet really understand what would make a good or great central city. I can't fault him about the arena deal though. I don't doubt that the arena will transform downtown. I just don't think that an Sports and Entertainment Center alone is going to transform downtown into a thriving urban community. Having said that. The Downtown Plaza is a dying mall and it needs to be removed. This is going to be a boon to downtown businesses for sure. But will have to wait and see if that will translate to downtown housing. How many people who come in to watch a game or see a show or attend a meeting at the new Sports and Entertainment Center will want to live downtown? How many people do you know want to live next to a sports arena or convention center? I'm not saying I don't want to see it get built. I do. But there is a lot of fixing up to do downtown and I don't think we should stop there. What a visitor thinks is wrong and not necessarily what a resident thinks is. And what appeals to a visitor may not always appeal to a resident. Downtown needs to be a place that appeals to both.

[Black Box]

Good save, Sacramento! The only thing I wanted from the move was the arena. This makes me a sicko. Maybe it'll happen in a few years and hopefully it'll be a better design than what was proposed. I didn't dislike the Seattle proposal, but it was very odd.

[NME22]

Originally Posted by ozone

Fargo is kind of weird. She would often speak about the need for smart and responsible growth and then she ended up promoting all that stupid and irresponsible growth in Natomas. K. Johnson is Oak Park/Curtis Park so he has a closer to understanding what urban is, but not really. At least to me he doesn't yet really understand what would make a good or great central city. I can't fault him about the arena deal though. I don't doubt that the arena will transform downtown. I just don't think that an Sports and Entertainment Center alone is going to transform downtown into a thriving urban community. Having said that. The Downtown Plaza is a dying mall and it needs to be removed. This is going to be a boon to downtown businesses for sure. But will have to wait and see if that will translate to downtown housing. How many people who come in to watch a game or see a show or attend a meeting at the new Sports and Entertainment Center will want to live downtown? How many people do you know want to live next to a sports arena or convention center? I'm not saying I don't want to see it get built. I do. But there is a lot of fixing up to do downtown and I don't think we should stop there. What a visitor thinks is wrong and not necessarily what a resident thinks is. And what appeals to a visitor may not always appeal to a resident. Downtown needs to be a place that appeals to both.

There is a whole chicken or the egg thing going on here. However, something needs to happen to get the development started downtown. The attempts at hi-rise housing fell through with the recession. Looks like the arena will get done first instead. Let's hope that it does end up sparking both housing and business development. I feel that it will.

[ltsmotorsport]

Well, at least we won't have to deal with sideshow owners anymore.

As for the arena, let's hope for a clean CEQA process and no unnecessary hang ups in court. Let's see dirt being turned at 5th & L come October 2014!

[Majin]

Originally Posted by ozone

Fargo is kind of weird. She would often speak about the need for smart and responsible growth and then she ended up promoting all that stupid and irresponsible growth in Natomas.

Very simple to understand. Judge people by their actions, not their words.

Fargo was a bakersfield suburbanite who wanted to bring anytown, USA to Sacramento. And guess what? In 2008, the voters decided against that vision. And after KJ spent a lot of political capital towards a downtown arena, the voters again overwhelming reelected him.

It should be obvious by now where most voters in Sacramento (in the city) stand. And in 2016, guess what, KJ will against run virtually unopposed as he did in 2012.

[Majin]

By the way, wburg and innov8, please run for mayor in 2016. Run on a campaign of kicking the kings out of town, canceling all projects that aren't historic renovations, and hiring Fargo as the city manager. Lets see if your ideas are as wide spread as you think they are.

[CAGeoNerd]

For what it's worth - brief segment about the interest already sparking around downtown thanks to the arena news:

http://www.news10.net/video/default....=2390683579001

"Our phones are already ringing off the hook. We've got investors, we've got retailers that are saying, how do we get close to it? What spaces are available? What are the walking patterns? And so, everything we hoped would happen is happening already, and it's been two or three days." - Michael Ault, Downtown Sacramento Partnership

[Majin]

Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd

For what it's worth - brief segment about the interest already sparking around downtown thanks to the arena news:

http://www.news10.net/video/default....=2390683579001

"Our phones are already ringing off the hook. We've got investors, we've got retailers that are saying, how do we get close to it? What spaces are available? What are the walking patterns? And so, everything we hoped would happen is happening already, and it's been two or three days." - Michael Ault, Downtown Sacramento Partnership

Their phones are rining off the hook not because of the arena, but because cars are now back on k street

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by CAGeoNerd

For what it's worth - brief segment about the interest already sparking around downtown thanks to the arena news:

http://www.news10.net/video/default....=2390683579001

"Our phones are already ringing off the hook. We've got investors, we've got retailers that are saying, how do we get close to it? What spaces are available? What are the walking patterns? And so, everything we hoped would happen is happening already, and it's been two or three days." - Michael Ault, Downtown Sacramento Partnership

Don't be naive... don't you know that all this interest is only because of relaxed parking requirements already in place and has nothing to do with a new arena?

Gotta be true... wburg told me so!

[wburg]

If you squeeze one end of a balloon, the other end swells up, but it's still filled with the same amount of air. I suppose I'd rather see the bigger end of the balloon downtown vs. Natomas, but it remains to be seen whether this will bring actual growth in the long run. This gives North Natomas a really hard squeeze.

I'm a skeptic, as some of you may have figured out by now. I don't take someone's word for it just because they hold political office or a large bank balance. My main concern about this arena plan is based on the method of financing on the city side.

In terms of supporters/opposition, both sides seem quite bipartisan. I have heard a lot of right-wing criticism of the plan, from local anti-tax groups and conservative commenters, mostly focused on public expense.

Speaking of seeing things myself, I had a chance to visit San Diego this past winter. I took light rail to the Gaslamp to see what the fuss was about. It seemed nice, if a little plastic in parts. I noticed that having a freight railroad line running through downtown doesn't seem to have much negative effect in San Diego. Lots of nice old buildings fixed up and put to new uses, alongside new construction. I didn't get that close to the ballpark, but it didn't seem like much was happening that way (not a game night.)

I did notice that there were some SRO hotels in the Gaslamp, and the spare-changers were all at one end (the far end reminded me of K Street before the mermaid bar zone opened.) I took light rail back to the hotel using a different route, and noticed a lot of homeless people sleeping in the business district, which was pretty quiet otherwise.

A month or so later I met a fellow who works for San Diego's "Little Italy" PBID. He was really pushing the idea of downtown residential--claimed that all the high-rise in SD these days was residential, including families, no office construction is going on because these days, if you have a laptop and a Starbuck's, you have an office. He was less enthusiastic about their ballpark--said the main effect on his area was to push homeless from the Gaslamp into his neighborhood.

We'll see what happens downtown. This was a long shot, and it definitely beat the odds, so as someone who tends to go with a safe bet, I'm surprised by the result. If it works, I'll applaud--but at least from what I have seen so far, it doesn't seem like a measurably different approach to downtown development than we have seen in previous decades. Lots of businesses started calling the last couple of times the city started pouring money into K Street too--the question is, what happens after construction is finished?

[BrianSac]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Can you guys from Sacramento fill me in on your thoughts on Mayor Kevin Johnson, especially after the recent news about the Kings? And how does the city in general feel about him?

I only ask because he was my favorite player on the Suns when I was a kid, so I'm wondering if he is liked or not. I know next to nothing about any of the details of this saga, only that it seems KJ worked hard to keep the Kings in Sacramento when it seemed like the Kings to Seattle was a done deal. But maybe you guys don't want the Kings (?).

My favorite anecdote about KJ is: In the early 2000s I was a student at ASU... It's a huge campus, but there are some areas that can be "off-the-beaten-path" and dark at night. I was walking from the gym to my bike one evening and here comes KJ down the path by himself with no one else around. This was long after he retired. I just said hi and he smiled and said hi or something. It was just completely random to see him there at that time. Check that, I just remembered an even weirder story. It was circa 2007, and the first weekend of March Madness. I was flying to Omaha and had a layover in Denver. My GF and I stopped in a terminal restaurant to grab some food and watch the tournament games. I noticed KJ was sitting at a table in the same bar. His Cal Bears had just upset someone (can't remember) in the first round. I had my girlfriend go over and talk to him and have him sign my brackets next to the Cal bracket. He wrote "Go Bears! KJ" in his typical autograph style.

Not that anyone cares, I just had fun typing that out and reminiscining.

Glad you stopped in and shared that story. I voted for KJ in part because he was an arena supporter and he is the antithesis to the socialist-nimby obstructionists and the old-timer crumudgeon naysayer types that have such a huge voice in Sacramento.

KJ represents the progressive silent majority of Sacramento and they voted him in twice. KJ is a true leader and most are very happy he is our Mayor.

[Schmoe]

FWIW, my contact still insists the powers that be have not abandoned the more western location for the arena. The NBA's timeline made it necessary to submit the plan with the eastern location, but now that the battle is won, I'm told the western site is still being looked at. My contact hints at a 301 Cap connection. Stay tuned!

My opinion: it will stay on the eastern end of the mall so as not to delay the review process. In the end, I think shovels hitting dirt will be more important than someone's plan for 301 or a better connection to Old Sac.

[travis bickle]

Originally Posted by wburg

If you squeeze one end of a balloon, the other end swells up, but it's still filled with the same amount of air. I suppose I'd rather see the bigger end of the balloon downtown vs. Natomas, but it remains to be seen whether this will bring actual growth in the long run. This gives North Natomas a really hard squeeze.

I'm a skeptic, as some of you may have figured out by now. I don't take someone's word for it just because they hold political office or a large bank balance. My main concern about this arena plan is based on the method of financing on the city side.

In terms of supporters/opposition, both sides seem quite bipartisan. I have heard a lot of right-wing criticism of the plan, from local anti-tax groups and conservative commenters, mostly focused on public expense.

Speaking of seeing things myself, I had a chance to visit San Diego this past winter. I took light rail to the Gaslamp to see what the fuss was about. It seemed nice, if a little plastic in parts. I noticed that having a freight railroad line running through downtown doesn't seem to have much negative effect in San Diego. Lots of nice old buildings fixed up and put to new uses, alongside new construction. I didn't get that close to the ballpark, but it didn't seem like much was happening that way (not a game night.)

I did notice that there were some SRO hotels in the Gaslamp, and the spare-changers were all at one end (the far end reminded me of K Street before the mermaid bar zone opened.) I took light rail back to the hotel using a different route, and noticed a lot of homeless people sleeping in the business district, which was pretty quiet otherwise.

A month or so later I met a fellow who works for San Diego's "Little Italy" PBID. He was really pushing the idea of downtown residential--claimed that all the high-rise in SD these days was residential, including families, no office construction is going on because these days, if you have a laptop and a Starbuck's, you have an office. He was less enthusiastic about their ballpark--said the main effect on his area was to push homeless from the Gaslamp into his neighborhood.

We'll see what happens downtown. This was a long shot, and it definitely beat the odds, so as someone who tends to go with a safe bet, I'm surprised by the result. If it works, I'll applaud--but at least from what I have seen so far, it doesn't seem like a measurably different approach to downtown development than we have seen in previous decades. Lots of businesses started calling the last couple of times the city started pouring money into K Street too--the question is, what happens after construction is finished?

Well... I've often found when all that even when all the evidence suggests otherwise, people still see what they want. As I said wburg... looks like you could be in for a painful decade or two. So sad that downtown Sacramento's future success makes you so cranky.

If your friend at the LIA really said that the main effect of the ballpark was to pushing the homeless to his neighborhood, then I'm going to have to tell Marco he has a real bitterman on staff. I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it. Of course... maybe it's Marco. He's pretty sensitive about anything that affects Little Italy. I can see him getting a little bent that East Village development shifted some of the homeless to Little Italy. But frankly, seems that the homeless problem there is much smaller than it used to be. Maybe I'd feel differently if the homeless were migrating to Bankers Hill.

I have to say tho, the homeless are still all over East Village. That's where all the services for them are. They were established when the area was a wasteland and it's interesting watching them working at co-existing with the new high/mid rise residential and hotels.

I think one reason why San Diego has really stepped up it's homeless programs over the last year or so is because all the new development in the area forces residents and politicians to confront the issue instead of sweeping it away out of sight.

And Bill, next time you're in San Diego, let me know. Be happy to buy you a cocktail: if you'll accept a drink from a developer that is...