Best and worst places to find a job in Canada

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Shrug.

I've been around a lot, and there's something to be said for attitudes. Not everyone works in O&G gas here (hell, the majority don't) but there IS something to the "Alberta advantage" thing. I don't think it's something NOBODY else has, but Albertans (native and landed) just do it to the nth degree.

I mean, there's hardly even any question in anyone's mind here that Stampede is gonna happen. Even in light of all the destruction, even in light of the downtown core being out of commission for a solid week - everyone seems confident that we'll have no problem basically taking downtown out of business for ANOTHER week.

I think this is the exact attitude from Calgarians that bothers people, that there is some intrinsic value that people in that city have that others don't. For instance that if there was major flooding in another city that they would just roll over and die. That pushing for Stampede to continue is something that would happen in Calgary and not elsewhere due to the spirit of Calgarians.

The only thing special about Calgary's economy is its O&G sector. We are all Canadians and we are all equally capable, and to say or imply otherwise is insulting and simply wrong.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I work in IT. Have for a long time now. Outsourcing/offshoring/temporary foreign worker program abuse/training your replacement/etc has been routine for decades now. Especially the last 10 years or so out here.

What RBC did was no different than what I've seen happen to myself, to friends and family, and to most of my co-workers at one time or another. When it happened by the *thousands* in Alberta, it barely made the news. People grumbled a bit, and went and got other jobs. When it happened in Toronto, it was national news for *days*.

Feel free to explain to me exactly why what RBC did was so different than what a hundred other companies did here over the past 5 years.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not *defending* the practice. I think it's abhorrent and I think our government should take steps to protect Canadian jobs. Stop offering tax breaks to companies that send work overseas, etc. Crack down heavily on the TFW program (hell, scrap much of it). However I'm highly amused at how this practice is somehow new and controversial. It's been the norm out West for nearly a generation.

I doubt that what RBC did was much different from what others were doing. What was different was that they did it to people with the savvy to make it an issue with the CBC, in a way that gave the CBC a chance successfully to face down both the RBC and others, and the Harper government (i.e. golden opportunity given that adversarial relationship). Ontario angle - of course, they had direct access to the "national" media machine in Toronto. The whole Canadian IT community is the beneficiary, however. What I never did figure out was who was behind the scenes orchestrating the RBC employee/CBC contacts. Liberal or NDP activist perhaps?

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

i doubt that what rbc did was much different from what others were doing. What was different was that they did it to people with the savvy to make it an issue with the cbc, in a way that gave the cbc a chance successfully to face down both the rbc and others, and the harper government (i.e. Golden opportunity given that adversarial relationship). Ontario angle - of course, they had direct access to the "national" media machine in toronto. The whole canadian it community is the beneficiary, however. What i never did figure out was who was behind the scenes orchestrating the rbc employee/cbc contacts. Liberal or ndp activist perhaps?

^
+1

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I think this is the exact attitude from Calgarians that bothers people, that there is some intrinsic value that people in that city have that others don't. For instance that if there was major flooding in another city that they would just roll over and die. That pushing for Stampede to continue is something that would happen in Calgary and not elsewhere due to the spirit of Calgarians.

The only thing special about Calgary's economy is its O&G sector. We are all Canadians and we are all equally capable, and to say or imply otherwise is insulting and simply wrong.

You can keep insisting that it's ONLY EVER ABOUT OIL all you want, but I see plenty of reasons why it's not (I've already been over many of them, most notably the fact that the majority of Albertans don't even work in the industry). Hell, don't remind me about the time the army got called in for a snowstorm.

I'm mostly taking the piss here. I don't think I'm trying to claim that there's something magical about Calgarians that means we just do everything perfectly and no one else can deal with life. But I think the opposite claim, that every single Canadian in every single region is exactly the same and handles things exactly the same is just as ridiculous. And provably false based on previous natural disasters throughout history.

Argue all you want, but not a single person in Calgary seems to worry about Stampede happening. Every person that's asked me "omg what about Stampede" has been from outside of the city. Make of that what you will.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I doubt that what RBC did was much different from what others were doing. What was different was that they did it to people with the savvy to make it an issue with the CBC, in a way that gave the CBC a chance successfully to face down both the RBC and others, and the Harper government (i.e. golden opportunity given that adversarial relationship). Ontario angle - of course, they had direct access to the "national" media machine in Toronto. The whole Canadian IT community is the beneficiary, however. What I never did figure out was who was behind the scenes orchestrating the RBC employee/CBC contacts. Liberal or NDP activist perhaps?

Perhaps I don't understand how the news media works, but the CBC was fully aware of similar layoffs happening here. Because they, like every other news source in this part of the world, reported on it happening here many times. The news media itself chose to not make an issue out of it beyond casual mention, and the employees themselves mostly shrugged and got another job. There was no one pushing the outrage angle because frankly, losing a few jobs here just isn't the big crisis it is made out to be elsewhere (even if the IT losses have ended up being in the thousands just from the major O&G players alone).

Unless you're claiming an institutional bias within the CBC, to the effect that they ignore job losses in parts of the country that are not Toronto. Or perhaps they didn't think it would generate the outrage if it wasn't in Toronto, or with a Toronto-based company like RBC?

[freeweed]

Stampede spirit.

I'm curious for those folks not from Calgary - do stories like this offend you? The story talks about how Stampede just happens no matter what, wars, depressions, disasters, and how it speaks to the spirit of the community here.

Do you guys seriously read this as Calgarian arrogance?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Stampede spirit.

I'm curious for those folks not from Calgary - do stories like this offend you? The story talks about how Stampede just happens no matter what, wars, depressions, disasters, and how it speaks to the spirit of the community here.

Do you guys seriously read this as Calgarian arrogance?

Did someone seriously suggest that it represents arrogance? I see it as a combination of community spirit and "the show must go on". I can't think of a good parallel, but I think most Canadian communities would react in a similar way, no? Am I missing something?

[niwell]

I don't find that particular article offensive in the least, but I have experienced the attitude LeftCoaster is talking about many times. Granted it may be a bit different as I grew up in Calgary and most of my family is still there. And I do recognize that not everyone is arrogant, but it is more prevalent in Calgary than elsewhere I have lived or visited in Canada.

When I go back home and speak with family friends or whatnot I have often been asked "so when are you going to move back?", or "how can you stand it there?". Usually followed by something derisive about my career choice (since it isn't finance based) and a lecture about how "it's only a matter of time" before the big 5 banks pick up shop and move to Calgary. Because you know, it's just BETTER HERE. Then something about volunteer spirit, as if people elsewhere simply hate each other.

I usually don't like to bring this up as I truly do like Calgary, and this attitude isn't necessarily a bad thing (I sometimes wish it existed in Toronto). Nor would I even call it offensive per se. But it is for sure a thing.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You can keep insisting that it's ONLY EVER ABOUT OIL all you want, but I see plenty of reasons why it's not (I've already been over many of them, most notably the fact that the majority of Albertans don't even work in the industry). Hell, don't remind me about the time the army got called in for a snowstorm.

I'm mostly taking the piss here. I don't think I'm trying to claim that there's something magical about Calgarians that means we just do everything perfectly and no one else can deal with life. But I think the opposite claim, that every single Canadian in every single region is exactly the same and handles things exactly the same is just as ridiculous. And provably false based on previous natural disasters throughout history.

Argue all you want, but not a single person in Calgary seems to worry about Stampede happening. Every person that's asked me "omg what about Stampede" has been from outside of the city. Make of that what you will.

Alberta is made up of a huge percentage of people who have recently packed their bags and moved here from across the country. That's not an easy thing to do and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that somebody who has relocated is a bit more of a go getter than somebody who has stayed in an economically depressed area hoping that things will one day turn around.

It's certainly not a rule, but i think there is something to it.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by many santos

The Ontario of the Toronto area is vastly different from Southwestern Ontario. While Toronto booms, cities like London and Windsor are dying. There has been an exodus from the London area in recent years, although some of that has been within the province (such as myself); I do know a number of people who have gone to Alberta, Saskatchewan, and BC.

There are no cities in Ontario that are "dying". The cities you mentioned are relatively stagnant but compared to similar sized cities just across the U.S. border they're actually doing allright.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Did someone seriously suggest that it represents arrogance? I see it as a combination of community spirit and "the show must go on". I can't think of a good parallel, but I think most Canadian communities would react in a similar way, no? Am I missing something?

You tell me, this is a comment in this thread in response to my saying "Stampede will go on, it's how we roll here":

I think this is the exact attitude from Calgarians that bothers people, that there is some intrinsic value that people in that city have that others don't. For instance that if there was major flooding in another city that they would just roll over and die. That pushing for Stampede to continue is something that would happen in Calgary and not elsewhere due to the spirit of Calgarians.

The only thing special about Calgary's economy is its O&G sector. We are all Canadians and we are all equally capable, and to say or imply otherwise is insulting and simply wrong.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Alberta is made up of a huge percentage of people who have recently packed their bags and moved here from across the country. That's not an easy thing to do and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that somebody who has relocated is a bit more of a go getter than somebody who has stayed in an economically depressed area hoping that things will one day turn around.

It's certainly not a rule, but i think there is something to it.

You sure it's not the free Oil Cheques we all get handed when we cross the border?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by freeweed

You tell me, this is a comment in this thread in response to my saying "Stampede will go on, it's how we roll here":

Ahh, I hadn't seen that earlier comment. I really don't see any difference between Calgary's post-flood Stampede response and what I would expect to see in many if not most other Canadian communities if somehow confronted with a comparable disaster and tight time frames. I suppose it's hard to test - God forbid somebody else gets flooded out just before their big annual event! (eg, I can't see a bit of flooding keeping K-W out of their beer tents during Oktoberfest, even if they had to wear floaties to do the chicken dance! )

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by freeweed

While I'm willing to be proven wrong, I'd love to see proof that no city in Canadian history has ever lost population except for Calgary.

For the record, Calgary lost around 0.4% of its population one year, and 0.1% the following. Every other year has seen growth.

Edit: that wasn't hard. Montreal lost some 16% of its population throughout the 1970s. While the CMA gained a very small amount overall, it's kinda hard to compare apples to apples here. Calgary's surrounding areas have never been properly counted into a CMA the way cities down east are.

Obviously I was talking about the metro areas, the only meaningful basis for comparison in this context, not arbitrary municipal boundaries. But I can see how it probably gets tiresome hearing people harp on about watching out for the next bust.

[Shinook]

There is a fundraiser going on in Manitoba to raise funds to help flood victims out west. The theme is "Manitoba loves Alberta". I get it and think it's a good thing, but at the same time is a little too much for me. I mean, has Alberta, particularly Calgary, done anything like this for Manitoba when we have big floods? To my understanding, no. Not even once. So hopefully the favor is returned when it is needed out east. Hopefully.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

Alberta is made up of a huge percentage of people who have recently packed their bags and moved here from across the country. That's not an easy thing to do and I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that somebody who has relocated is a bit more of a go getter than somebody who has stayed in an economically depressed area hoping that things will one day turn around.

It's certainly not a rule, but i think there is something to it.

One could also say that people who elect to stick by their homes and try to build something against poor economic odds have a certain never-say-die spirit as well, rather than picking up an easier paycheque. (But actually, I think both arguments would be a bit simplistic. People make the choices they make for all kinds of reasons, and I don't think we can ascribe regional characteristics as a result. I know hard-working people who've built businesses from nothing in Nova Scotia and new Brunswick, and I know lazy layabouts in Calgary, so...)

Has Calgary has confronted the flood with more spirit and energy than others cities would? No, because EVERY city or community exhibits that kind of spirit after disasters and emergencies--maybe one reason why watching the post-flood response, I got a bit homesick for Calgary in the first time in forever.

You could make a case study of this from hurricanes in the Maritimes (talk to a Haligonian about how that city pulled together after Hurricane Juan) to earthquakes in California, to 9/11 in NYC (ditto, talk to a New Yorker about how so many New Yorkers dropped that Noo Yawk facade.) The idea that Calgary is especially resilient or strong is, at best, untestable, and probably not at all true.

But it's still been wonderful to see. I don't think the Manitoba-loves-Alberta response is over the top, either. The 2009 and 2011 floods in Manitoba were NOTHING like what happened in Alberta. There hasn't been something on that level in Manitoba since the 1950 flood.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

One could also say that people who elect to stick by their homes and try to build something against poor economic odds have a certain never-say-die spirit as well, rather than picking up an easier paycheque. (But actually, I think both arguments would be a bit simplistic. People make the choices they make for all kinds of reasons, and I don't think we can ascribe regional characteristics as a result. I know hard-working people who've built businesses from nothing in Nova Scotia and new Brunswick, and I know lazy layabouts in Calgary, so...)

Has Calgary has confronted the flood with more spirit and energy than others cities would? No, because EVERY city or community exhibits that kind of spirit after disasters and emergencies--maybe one reason why watching the post-flood response, I got a bit homesick for Calgary in the first time in forever.

You could make a case study of this from hurricanes in the Maritimes (talk to a Haligonian about how that city pulled together after Hurricane Juan) to earthquakes in California, to 9/11 in NYC (ditto, talk to a New Yorker about how so many New Yorkers dropped that Noo Yawk facade.) The idea that Calgary is especially resilient or strong is, at best, untestable, and probably not at all true.

But it's still been wonderful to see. I don't think the Manitoba-loves-Alberta response is over the top, either. The 2009 and 2011 floods in Manitoba were NOTHING like what happened in Alberta. There hasn't been something on that level in Manitoba since the 1950 flood.

Not every city pulls together. Look at New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, they didn't help each other at all in the aftermath.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Not every city pulls together. Look at New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, they didn't help each other at all in the aftermath.

Mmm, I've read a few interesting articles on that (can't find them now). But there was a LOT of bad reporting in the media about rioting and murder in the superdome and all that, which wasn't nearly as bad as the initial reports suggested. Things were bad, but much of the worst outcomes were caused by FEMA and the feds, who actively prevented citizens from creating ad-hoc relief efforts by cutting off access to different parts of the city and shutting down volunteers, etc. Accounts from the streets indicate a great deal of generosity. I think Katrina was a different case, but actually not nearly the vicious shit-show it's perceived to have been...

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Shinook

There is a fundraiser going on in Manitoba to raise funds to help flood victims out west. The theme is "Manitoba loves Alberta". I get it and think it's a good thing, but at the same time is a little too much for me. I mean, has Alberta, particularly Calgary, done anything like this for Manitoba when we have big floods? To my understanding, no. Not even once. So hopefully the favor is returned when it is needed out east. Hopefully.

Shinook, I choose my words carefully, but PISS OFF!

We know you hate Alberta and are glad to be back in the 'Peg (but not half as glad as we are that you left), but if you even took the effort to find out, you would have seen that Alberta did a SHIT LOAD of stuff in 1997 (as did all of Canada) when there was one of the worst floods in Canada's history threatening to destroy much of Manitoba.

Ohhh, I know that you will say that "that was before my time, I didn't know", but a 10 second search on Google pulled up many results like this "we sent 8 semi-trailers full of relief supplies for the Manitoba Flood relief in 1997" from the Edmonton Emergency Relief Services as well as other links to groups throughout Alberta that helped out. I guess your "understanding" is really simple, isn't it??

Again, take your "hate on" for Alberta (and Calgary) and go somewhere else.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Blitz

There are no cities in Ontario that are "dying". The cities you mentioned are relatively stagnant but compared to similar sized cities just across the U.S. border they're actually doing allright.

I agree that there are no dying cities in Ontario today.

I can't believe anybody would mention London as dying! It has about 366,000 people I believe according to the last census and has still been growing. It not growing anything like it was in the 1980s and 1990s though. It is quite a wealthy city with great infrastructure by Canadian standards. A large university, college, many industries and businesses and is a large service centre for Southwestern Ontario.

Windsor has had some struggles but overall is a very nice city with lots of opportunity. Maybe its economy is somewhat stagnant right now but as Blitz mentioned it's nothing like what some cities in Michigan are experiencing.

I live in Timmins in Northern Ontario which is very different. We are a resource city. (mining and some forestry) Timmins was "dying" during the 1990s when the price of gold and other minerals was very low and unemployment was between 10-18% and a lot of people moved away. Things have changed drastically for the better since then mainly due to the high price of gold and there really isn't any unemployment and people are moving here. Many stores and restaurants here cannot find people to fill positions.