Regina | New Mosaic Stadium

[mjpaul]

Originally Posted by osmo

I think people will favor a dome if they we're assured they didn't have to pay for most of it. But people are not that dumb and can see through the smoke and mirrors. Even a outdoor proposal may indeed lead to tax increases but its a manageable number that does not have fees down the road that can spiral out of control.

There's a host of options for the City to raise money. All the province would have to do is sign off on it but things such has establishing tax increment districts could help, assign development caps on the outer suburbs and raise land values. Instead of giving the builders sweet heart deals and letting the Hill's, Fiacco's and the Fourgere's hook up their portfolio's and friends. Instead start digging in their pockets for much needed revenue (to pump into capital projects and housing). The demand is there to build. They will not run away. But too many cronies run the show here and are making good money doing so. I won't hold my breath.

To keep us "dome supporters" happy, I hope the outdoor stadium is built to allow for a roof expansion..because 20 years down the road the issue of a roof by civic leaders will be sure to come up

[osmo]

Originally Posted by wacko

My vote is for the outdoor stadium. It is in my opinion the most rational option.

I would prefer it if the city didn't artificially raise land values, though maybe it doesn't matter too much since I already can't afford to purchase or even rent any decent property in town. (Seriously, what happened to limiting total PITI to 30% of your gross income?)

It is a touchy issue and it can only be done if a solid affordable housing program is implemented with the flood gates being open for developers to build rental stock. Some areas will balloon while others will just jump a tad (more or less not, it would just force developers to find other pockets of infill to develop). I am in the camp that feels the City is the perfect size and could easily accommodate 500K people within its current borders.

But in the long run it saves money. The City can be maintained more efficiently and for less cost which does cap how much money it would be taking from the homeowner.

[Spongebob]

Sounds like the Provincial government is serious about helping build a new stadium.

http://www.cjme.com/story/premier-wa...l-dinner/60368

[wacko]

That story also appeared in today's newspaper (article here).

I wonder if the provincial government would propose funding similar to what's being offered for the new Plains Surgery and Outpatient Care Centre, so that there's no complaints about different treatment? For example, might the government offer 60% funding, provided that other entities (the city, the Roughriders, private donations, etc.) put up the other 40%? I believe the prior proposal made by the city had it contributing $50 million towards stadium construction, so that is another $50 million to raise to hit the 40% mark of a $250-million stadium.

[Welkin]

Could this be in Regina's future?


Tribune Watchdog: Soccer stadium deal kicks Bridgeview taxpayers in the teeth
Political insiders benefit, property taxes nearly triple as village is saddled with millions in debt

By Joseph Ryan and Joe Mahr, Chicago Tribune reporters

6:52 p.m. CDT, June 9, 2012

Rising from the rubble of an old industrial site, the 20,000-seat Toyota Park was supposed to put a small suburb on the map.

Yet the soccer stadium also has become a model of what can go wrong when a little town takes massive development gambles in a state with loose borrowing and ethics laws: Politicians and insiders benefit, while taxpayers are stuck covering budget-busting losses.

The blue-collar suburb of Bridgeview now suffers under the highest rate of debt in the Chicago region, a Tribune analysis of thousands of pages of state and local records found.

To help make its payments, the village has nearly tripled the Bridgeview property tax bill in less than a decade for the town's mostly modest ranch homes and plans to boost that burden far higher.

The hulking, red-brick Toyota Park rises impressively from the side of gritty Harlem Avenue, its canopies jutting into the sky. The village-owned stadium is not only home to the Chicago Fire, but also hosts major music shows.

And since opening in 2006, it has come up millions of dollars short of making its huge debt payments. The yearly shortfalls are sometimes as big as the town's annual police budget, and they've helped sink the southwest suburb's credit rating to among the Chicago area's worst.

Still, not everyone in town is losing.

The big borrowing created a torrent of cash that, in part, went to companies tied to high-level village employees, the town leaders' political supporters and even companies linked to the mayor's family...........

Bridgeview's story is a sobering reminder for taxpayers across the Chicago region, most of whom live in towns that have almost unlimited power to borrow and tax without voter approval. When ambitious ventures fall flat, generations of taxpayers may pay the price.........

Village officials at first said the town would borrow up to $55 million to pay for most, but not all, of the stadium, and investors would assume much of the risk if the stadium didn't make money.

But then the town borrowed more than $100 million, to pay for the entire stadium, and put taxpayers directly on the hook if it didn't turn a profit. And turning a profit would be harder: The final deal called for much of the revenue from soccer games to go to the Chicago Fire............

The fundraiser was among a host of far higher-profile events, from packed rock concerts to Fire games, that have become fodder for town leaders' news releases while sending millions into village coffers.

Problem is, the town owes millions more on the debt.

Buried deep in Bridgeview's financial records are acknowledgments that the stadium has never made enough money to cover its loan payments.

Village officials say the stadium has come up about $11.5 million short of making its debt payments from opening day in 2006 to 2010. A Tribune analysis of the village's audited financial reports shows the shortfall could actually be more than double that amount, depending on which expenses and debt payments are attributed to Toyota Park..........

Today Bridgeview is suffocating under nearly a quarter of a billion dollars in debt.

All of it was borrowed in ways that require taxpayers to pay it back — even if the projects go south. The Tribune analyzed such "general obligation" loans for each Chicago-area town and compared them to property values, a common way to measure a town's debt load. Bridgeview leads the region, with 11 times the debt rate of the average town...........

Records show the stadium lost money even before the recession began. It has lost money, year after year, despite often hitting broad benchmarks that were originally touted as a baseline for breaking even: a soccer team, four international soccer events and four concerts a year.........

[Stormer]

Bridgeview is a working class town of 16,000 people.

[boborider]

Not sure what point you are trying to make Welkin. If you are trying to correlate Regina's stadium project with Bridgeview then we would need to borrow 1.3 billion, as a city, based on population comparatiives. Even in Fiacco's wildest hallucinations, we would not even come close to a fraction of that kind of debt. A comparison to the Brigeview project, in my opinion, is totally invalid and without merit.

[1ajs]

regina would have to realy mess up for that to happen

[Chadillaccc]

By the time the Stadium is complete, the Regina area will have nearly 250 000 people. Every city of that size has a decent stadium, seriously this is NOT that big of a deal... especially considering Regina is the capital.

[jlousa]

Victoria/Kelowna/Kamloops aren't too far off those pop numbers and certainly don't have a stadium even close to the current Mosiac. Not to say Regina doesn't deserve a stadium just wanted to clarify that no every city in that size range does not have a decent stadium

[Draftsman]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Victoria/Kelowna/Kamloops aren't too far off those pop numbers and certainly don't have a stadium even close to the current Mosiac. Not to say Regina doesn't deserve a stadium just wanted to clarify that no every city in that size range does not have a decent stadium

Nor do those cities have a CFL team. The Riders have been selling out 30,000+ seats for the last few years. Better than some of the much bigger cities (hello Toronto?)

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Draftsman

Nor do those cities have a CFL team. The Riders have been selling out 30,000+ seats for the last few years. Better than some of the much bigger cities (hello Toronto?)

Yes the team has had good crowds, but it wasn't too far back that the team had to hold telethons to raise money to survive. Things can and do change.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Yes the team has had good crowds, but it wasn't too far back that the team had to hold telethons to raise money to survive. Things can and do change.

At that time, the only team that was really on solid ground financially was Edmonton. The CFL overall was basically a very bad year away from collapse. So, yes, things can and have changed. And with a new television contract that will probably be quite a bit more lucrative than the last, I don't see things going back to the bad old days, in Saskatchewan or elsewhere.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by Nathan

At that time, the only team that was really on solid ground financially was Edmonton. The CFL overall was basically a very bad year away from collapse. So, yes, things can and have changed. And with a new television contract that will probably be quite a bit more lucrative than the last, I don't see things going back to the bad old days, in Saskatchewan or elsewhere.

Nor do I. But at the same time I don't expect it to be all peaches and cream forever as well, but somewhere in the middle.

Plan for average anything more is a bonus.....

[UPP]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Nor do I. But at the same time I don't expect it to be all peaches and cream forever as well, but somewhere in the middle.

Plan for average anything more is a bonus.....

Which is why the plan is for a 33,000 seat stadium, unlike ones of the 70's and 80's where huge parks were built (Edmonton - 60,000, Montreal - 60,000, Vancouver - 59,000, Toronto - 54,000).

[Davidson]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Victoria/Kelowna/Kamloops aren't too far off those pop numbers and certainly don't have a stadium even close to the current Mosiac. Not to say Regina doesn't deserve a stadium just wanted to clarify that no every city in that size range does not have a decent stadium

Those aren't really accurate or relevant comparisons. Firstly both Kelowna and Kamloops CMAs are significantly smaller than Regina's (around 150,000 for Kelowna and about 125,000 for Kamloops vs. Regina's about 215,000).

Secondly, Victoria would have to get an expansion team, which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me when BC already has the Lions, a provincial CFL team that plays in Vancouver. One could argue that BC is big enough to support another team, however the Lions just held training camps sessions in Kamloops this week so clearly are trying to stretch their appeal outside of just Vancouver.

And of course the Roughriders draw fans from across the province of Sask.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by Davidson

Those aren't really accurate or relevant comparisons. Firstly both Kelowna and Kamloops CMAs are significantly smaller than Regina's (around 150,000 for Kelowna and about 125,000 for Kamloops vs. Regina's about 215,000).

Secondly, Victoria would have to get an expansion team, which wouldn't make a whole lot of sense to me when BC already has the Lions, a provincial CFL team that plays in Vancouver. One could argue that BC is big enough to support another team, however the Lions just held training camps sessions in Kamloops this week so clearly are trying to stretch their appeal outside of just Vancouver.

And of course the Roughriders draw fans from across the province of Sask.

I second that. one can't compare Kamloops/Kelowna to Regina - for these are extremely different circumstances.

jlousa, why don't you add London, ON (CMA 475,000) or Quebec City (CMA 766,000) into this debate? They are both larger than Regina - and maybe they even deserve some sort of new stadium as well.

[jlousa]

Guys please reread the post I was responding too, it didn't have anything to do with having a CFL team, it was about other cities the size of Regina having a proper stadium. That simply isn't true, and again I'm not stating Regina doesn't deserve a proper stadium, I was simply contesting that cities in the 250K range certainly do not all have proper stadiums.

[osmo]

A better example to use is Fremont, Santa Clara California or Hamilton County, Ohio. There populations are more in lined with Regina, Hamilton County being almost the size of Saskatchewan.

It does not matter what you build you will loose money. Its just with a dome the losses would of been twice to three times as much. If the City has to fart away 5 million per year to service the debt then that is just the cost of doing business. But its more responsible to build a football stadium then to sell another facility on false premises with costs that could swell to 25-30 million per year to service.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Guys please reread the post I was responding too, it didn't have anything to do with having a CFL team, it was about other cities the size of Regina having a proper stadium. That simply isn't true, and again I'm not stating Regina doesn't deserve a proper stadium, I was simply contesting that cities in the 250K range certainly do not all have proper stadiums.

Gotcha!