Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

So I say, drop all Transitway extensions/improvements and invest that money into extending rail as far as possible.

I'm in complete agreement with that point.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by J.OT13
So I say, drop all Transitway extensions/improvements and invest that money into extending rail as far as possible.

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

I'm in complete agreement with that point.

I agree with that point too!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

How much would it cost to extend the mainline from Blair to Orleans? If the disputes continue maybe look at that at this stage?

Absolutely. If the western NIMBY movement is going to tie things up, divert the money and effort elsewhere.

Just beware of the NCC whinging about the loss of Greenbelt.

[NOWINYOW]

My comments were made with a touch of jest.

A few years ago, Andy Haydon ran for mayor on the platform of a tunnel but with buses. His plan, as I remember it, would be diesel/electric hybrids. While in the tunnel, they could operate electric thereby negating the need for ventilation etc. The tunnel would have been designed to later accommodate rail. His biggest selling point, I thought, was that the Provincial and Federal financial monies would pay for the tunnel. The city would not have needed to put up hundreds of millions, as there would not be an immediate need to change much to the existing bus rapid route.

All in all, a moot point now anyways. Though I do agree with a few others here. If the west end portion is causing so much grief, then extend it east out to Orleans. Both directions pretty much follow the Queensway (is it technically "the queensway" after the split?). Except for a few underpasses/overpasses alterationsaround Blair,Montreal road and further east transit points.

However, I will say this. Until a single train can run from Barrhaven or Kanata to Orleans via downtown and vice versa, ridership on Ottawa public transit will drop. Just my prediction.

[Aylmer]

As a intermediary measure, why not have a train go from Bayview to Kanata along the railway in Nepean and then along the 417? It would be only 6km longer, but it could be done years earlier since most of it already exists. Once the route along Richmond is completed around 2025, it could serve as a line to Arnprior and Renfew.

Including double-tracking and some modest stations, I'd figure the whole thing could be done for well under $150M and be up and running in time for the Confederation Line ribbon-cutting.

Food for thought.

[JCL]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

I agree, the best layout IMO:

* Remain on north side of 174 past Montreal Road and into the Greenbelt within the ROW (reason: easier access to the communities - have two stations, one accessed from Jasmine Crescent, and one just north of Montreal Road for Canotek Road)

* Cross into the 174 median just west of Jeanne d'Arc Boulevard, and remain there past Jeanne d'Arc (station there, either accessed across Jeanne d'Arc from the overpass or from a separate pedestrian overpass) and towards Place d'Orleans (consider a station at the Orleans Boulevard overpass, accessed from there)

* Several options exist at Place d'Orleans. That would likely need to be co-ordinated in a redevelopment plan with the landowners:

** 1) Median option - Remain in the 174 median to Trim. Requires reconstruction of the interchange though, since space under the Champlain Street overpass is insufficient. In addition, Place d'Orleans Drive would need to be relocated since the widened bridge would remove its ROW.
** 2) South side mall option - Shift to the south side, through the current Transitway station, then remain south of the 174 to Trim. Most difficult as it requires a complete reconstruction of the entire interchange and several new bridges to get over the required LRT trench, as well as a new bus terminal.
** 3) South side redevelopment option - Shift to the south side well in advance (i.e. just before the entrance ramps), dig farther and run it right through the current Place d'Orleans before moving up to the south side of the 174. Only doable if the mall is demolished (at the owner's expense) since the LRT goes in a trench right through it, but would be well-centered for a future mixed-use Orleans Centre redevelopment (including aerial rights for future buildings) and does not require relocating the road network in the area.

* If Option 1 is chosen, then the LRT can stay in the median to Trim. Options 2 and 3 leave the LRT on the south side, which is easy to do, but requires careful work to get into the park and ride (which would surely expand greatly). An additional station might be warranted at Tenth Line Road, but ridership there would be very low.

My preference at Place d'Orleans is Option 3 with redevelopment (that option is also by far the most valuable to Orleans as a whole), Option 1 without (lower cost + maintains the bus terminal).

A few years ago, when I spoke to an MRC consultant and an OC management staff regarding the Jeanne d'Arc bus stop "upgrade" during an open house, they told me that if the Transitway were to extend from Blair to Orleans, it would go on the southside of RR174.

Furthermore, I've been led to believe that at Place d'Orleans station, there is also an underground lower level that have already been constructed when the station was built in the mid-1990s. One evidence would be the expansion joints that you see at the station.

So if LRT were to extend to Orleans from Blair, I believe it will go on the southside of RR174 without Place d'Orleans Shopping Centre being torn down. As someone who lives in Orleans, I can't wait 'till LRT gets extended to Orleans.

[J.OT13]

1. NOWINYOW, about those Diesel-Hybrid buses; they are useless on the Transitway, they could work on urban routes, but useless on the Transitway (as they would be in a downtown tunnel). I'm not sure why the city thought they might work on the Transitway, and I'm not sure why we are converting them instead of running em' on urban routes as they should have romthe start, but there goese a few million that we will never see again.

And the federal/provincial money; they might have pulled it if we had opted for a bus tunnel instead of the current rail plan. Not saying bus tunnels don't have there benifits, but Ottawa is way past that point.

2. Running a commuter train from Nepean to Kanata (aka commuter rail), it should be part of our permenant transit system just like the other big 3 cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver). But it should extend at least as far north as Carleton Place and as far west as Smiths Falls. And there should be a station at Greenboro (for people who may work at Confederation) and the Ottawa VIA terminal (once the Confederation Line opens) as well as any other large employment area I might have missed along the existing rail corridor.

3. The NCC has in fact made a comment about running a bus Transitway thru the Greenbelt between Bayshore and Eagleson. Apparently they don't approve, but I don't believe they expressed a straight out rejection. Of course, there is no alternative route for the futur OLRT extension to Kanata.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Absolutely. If the western NIMBY movement is going to tie things up, divert the money and effort elsewhere.

Just beware of the NCC whinging about the loss of Greenbelt.

How could they complain if it is entirely in the 174 ROW?

[eternallyme]

A graphical perspective on how I think the Blair-Orleans section should run:



This is the zoom-in to Place d'Orleans, showing the three options:



(Option 3 assumes demolition of Place d'Orleans and a total redevelopment of the area)

Blue - Elevated
Green - At-grade
Yellow - Trenched
Orange - Cut and cover tunnel
Red - Bored tunnel (none in this section)

Notice that 90-95% of this whole section is at grade (meaning lower costs), almost entirely in the 174 ROW. The station at Tenth Line is OPTIONAL, since it would be high cost for low ridership (ridership there is depressed by the lack of development nearby + the ravine separating residential areas south of St. Joseph). It is not recommended at the construction stage, but should be protected for future infill. Some changes at the Montreal Road interchange are necessary (reconfigure west side ramps to diamond configuration).

Road network changes - necessary in Option 1 (at-grade in 174 median) as it requires widening the Champlain Street underpass and relocating Place d'Orleans Drive, and in Option 3 (trench well south into the property) as local streets run through the Place d'Orleans property instead - are not shown. Option 2 (through existing Transitway station) does not require any network changes.

The Trim Road Park and Ride should be expanded greatly, from the current 977 stalls to over 3,000 stalls with a parking garage. At the same time, the Place d'Orleans Park and Ride should be closed and turned over to development (the north side bus loop would be useless anyway with Options 2 and 3, although the pedestrian overpass should be maintained in all options for pedestrian flow, even if the bus terminal is demolished as well as it would be in Option 3 as bus operations would shift to local streets in the redevelopment).

[JeffB]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

2. Running a commuter train from Nepean to Kanata (aka commuter rail), it should be part of our permenant transit system just like the other big 3 cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver). But it should extend at least as far north as Carleton Place and as far west as Smiths Falls. And there should be a station at Greenboro (for people who may work at Confederation) and the Ottawa VIA terminal (once the Confederation Line opens) as well as any other large employment area I might have missed along the existing rail corridor.

Not to take away from your point about commuter rail, but how is Carleton Place considered "north"? It is actually southwest of Barrhaven.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by JeffB

Not to take away from your point about commuter rail, but how is Carleton Place considered "north"? It is actually southwest of Barrhaven.

My bad.

I didn't check the map when I wrote that. In my head, the downtown street grid is perfectly east-west/north-south which rotates the whole map (placing CP west). Add that to the fact that I live in Richmond, once worked in Smiths Falls which required me to drive north from work to CP.

To be clear, I know about the inclined orientation of the city (north-east corner of a downtown building is really true north), but I had a bit of a lapse.

So, sorry...

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Absolutely. If the western NIMBY movement is going to tie things up, divert the money and effort elsewhere.

Just beware of the NCC whinging about the loss of Greenbelt.

The reason to build the Western LRT is to rid ourselves of the costliest segment of the BRT network after the Bayview-Hurdman segment through downtown. Going to Orleans is a great thing to do, but if we're trying to cut down on costs and maybe serve students going to Algonquin, then west is the next direction to go, NIMBYs or not.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

3. The NCC has in fact made a comment about running a bus Transitway thru the Greenbelt between Bayshore and Eagleson. Apparently they don't approve, but I don't believe they expressed a straight out rejection. Of course, there is no alternative route for the futur OLRT extension to Kanata.

Well neither of these statements is in fact true.

The NCC's "opposition" was related very narrowly to one of the proposed transitway designs in the vicinity of the Moodie interchange that would have seen the transitway swing north around the interchange, requiring NCC lands, and in turn bumping Corkstown Rd (which has already been bumped by the interchange) further north into yet more NCC lands. At the same time, MTO lands in the Moodie interchange are apparently a lot more sacred. No changes to the MTO's interchange design could apparently be entertained, and any proposed uses of the MTO's lands required under or overpasses.

When I say that the City "lazily" proposes using NCC lands, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about. And make no mistake about it: the design that required the most NCC lands was a bad design even if NCC lands weren't an issue.

No other NCC lands were or are required to build a transitway to Kanata: the rest of it would remain on City RoW (basically between Corkstown and the Queensway).

There are also a couple of other routes to Kanata: Queensway to Moodie and then the former CPR corridor to Stittsville and Carleton Place and/or Robertson Rd, or Carling by way of Moodie or Holly Acres, or the Queensway/Corkstown then following the railway lines to Kanata North. Kanata is so "wide" (north to south) that there are essentially three corridors into it: the CPR & Robertson/Hazeldean axis, the Queensway, and the existing railways & Carling axis.

[NOWINYOW]

J.OT13
There is bus technology whereby the bus can operate on either battery, battery and diesel or just diesel. Inside the tunnel, buses could operate just with the batteries. This article is a bit dated, but does stipulate such. Page 15, I think.
http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/Ele...s_Analysis.pdf

Also, the monies from the Provincial and Federal Gov'ts was to target transit infrastructure only. Not capital costs such as trains/buses etc. Thereby, their monies would go towards the transit tunnel. The city could use some of the money intended on 417 interchange to instead buy the buses. This is not my theory but instead directly from the wisdom of Andy Haydon. A tunnel for buses, but built with the intentions to change later to LRT.

I agree that the transit system should interconnect as many communities as possible. While there is a need for LRT/BRT between Ottawa South/Barrhaven and Kanata, that demand is not nearly as crucial right now compared to routes that run from those same places to the downtown core and beyond heading east.

As for beyond Bayshore towards Kanata...that route would simply shoulder onto the existing 417 south of Corkstown road. Just as it's done now.

It's foolish to think of having some form of LRT heading west from Bayshore, Woodroffe/Queensway or Lincoln Fields BEFORE LRT is built from Bayview to any one of those potential stations.

How many people living in Kanata would be pickled pink to; hop on a local bus to take them to the Kanata LRT, disembark LRT at either Bayshore, Woodroffe/Queensway or Lincoln fields to catch a bus to get to Bayview so they can disembark to catch another LRT to take them into the downtown core through the tunnel? A bus can do all this now and it could continue right out to Orleans.

The entire route should be built first for buses. Once it is secured and built-ready for LRT the tracks can be put down.

[J.OT13]

Dado, I didn't realize that the city owned the land between the Queensway and Corkstown. In that case, I don't think the city needs to turn north, requiring to move Corkstown, just to save a few bucks on tunneling under the interchange (I figure that would look similar to the Transitway under the Bayshore interchange). My vote would be a. Queensway to go straight with tunnels or trenches where required all the way to roughly Huntmar where the transit right of way would turn south to its final destination, the Palladium (major lack of transit service to the SBP and should be a priority for Kanata transit). I would agree with commuter rail service to Stittsville if the b. former CPR tracks still existed, but I don't think double track electric LRT is worth it. Local bus service to SBP or a Park and Ride at SBP should suffice for Stittsville. As for c. Carling, I would opt for an extension of the Downtown Carling Streetcar to the Kanata North business park.

NOWINYOW, I've never seen those buses before and I apologize. When I think Hybrid, I think of those junkers the city bought (or cars that run electric until a certain speed). Do they come in 60 foot articulated and how much are they compared to standard (and while we are at it, the useless hybrids the City bought)? If the price of the OLRT would have ended up to rich for the City, I would have supported a bus tunnel, but I am satisfied with the current plan.

[NOWINYOW]

J.OT13 No worries. I wasn't explaining my thoughts clearly. Took me awhile to find that report again as well.

I'm not disappointed the city has opted for LRT. My concern is my belief that people will opt for cars. Right now suburban transit riders can take an express route directly to the downtown core. With LRT stage 1, at least one transfer will be required. Some will say that a single transfer is no big deal. My argument is when you take something away from people, they will react by changing their patterns altogether to regain what they once had. In this case, car pools or single occupancy cars into the downtown core.

I'm all for the tunnel. I'm all for whatever route works best westwards from Bayview out to Lincoln Fields (or that vicinity). Then one route continues south towards Barrhaven, another continues west out to Kanata and potentially beyond. I'm all for eastern expansion. I'm just saying keep it buses until it's all built.

Buses can also adapt if there is a problem in the tunnel that causes closure for a (extended?) period of time.(think Boston Big Dig) Sure, streets would be full of buses again for a period of time...but they would work. LRT will shut down. And then what? We wouldn't even have the necessary number of buses to put on the streets downtown.

Given the success this city has with bridges, I certainly hope it doesn't continue underground!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

J.OT13 No worries. I wasn't explaining my thoughts clearly. Took me awhile to find that report again as well.

I'm not disappointed the city has opted for LRT. My concern is my belief that people will opt for cars. Right now suburban transit riders can take an express route directly to the downtown core. With LRT stage 1, at least one transfer will be required. Some will say that a single transfer is no big deal. My argument is when you take something away from people, they will react by changing their patterns altogether to regain what they once had. In this case, car pools or single occupancy cars into the downtown core.

I'm all for the tunnel. I'm all for whatever route works best westwards from Bayview out to Lincoln Fields (or that vicinity). Then one route continues south towards Barrhaven, another continues west out to Kanata and potentially beyond. I'm all for eastern expansion. I'm just saying keep it buses until it's all built.

Buses can also adapt if there is a problem in the tunnel that causes closure for a (extended?) period of time.(think Boston Big Dig) Sure, streets would be full of buses again for a period of time...but they would work. LRT will shut down. And then what? We wouldn't even have the necessary number of buses to put on the streets downtown.

Given the success this city has with bridges, I certainly hope it doesn't continue underground!

I agree that the first phase won't do much for ridership. We will be lucky if it stays at the current level (I'm thinking possible loss of suburban ridership and balanced gain thanks to densification along the O-Train and Confederation line). Also, the lack of parking/expensive parking downtown will likely "force" a lot of suburbanites to keep taking transit. (BTW, there is a 5 year waiting list for monthly passes at Constitution Square. I imagine similar situations at the other office complexes).

I'm hoping, for our sake, that the problems in Boston were due to the Big Dig being built under reclaimed land right on the ocean. There have been a few problems in Toronto and Montreal as well over the years, most of them (I believe) fairly recent, which is expected after 45-60 years of service.

As for a contingency plan if the rail tunnel shuts down, I have no doubt it would get ugly. How does Montreal and Toronto deal with it? Mainline railways out of downtown (which we don't have)?

As for future rail service, I would live to eventually see direct to downtown rapid transit in all four big suburbs (including Gatineau) and the airport... but it might take a while.

If the city can start construction of the extension to Baseline the minute the Confederation Line opens, that would be appreciated.

[citizen j]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

My concern is my belief that people will opt for cars. Right now suburban transit riders can take an express route directly to the downtown core. With LRT stage 1, at least one transfer will be required. Some will say that a single transfer is no big deal. My argument is when you take something away from people, they will react by changing their patterns altogether to regain what they once had. In this case, car pools or single occupancy cars into the downtown core.

Your fear is justified. People will opt to drive rather than transfer. On Monday. On Tuesday morning, however, they'll go back to taking transit because the line of cars on the Queensway will have stretched from Arnprior to Rockland. Toronto learned this lesson long ago, back in the 60s when the city stopped adding new freeway lanes from the suburbs to downtown. The more cars you put on the road without expanding capacity, the more inconvenient driving becomes, thereby providing a built-in motivator to take transit. And, as others have pointed out, parking in downtown Ottawa is relatively scarce and expensive. So, you'll likely see a rise in car commutes initially, followed by a gradual return to transit by a large number of those who chose to drive when they lost their precious express route.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by citizen j

Your fear is justified. People will opt to drive rather than transfer. On Monday. On Tuesday morning, however, they'll go back to taking transit because the line of cars on the Queensway will have stretched from Arnprior to Rockland. Toronto learned this lesson long ago, back in the 60s when the city stopped adding new freeway lanes from the suburbs to downtown. The more cars you put on the road without expanding capacity, the more inconvenient driving becomes, thereby providing a built-in motivator to take transit. And, as others have pointed out, parking in downtown Ottawa is relatively scarce and expensive. So, you'll likely see a rise in car commutes initially, followed by a gradual return to transit by a large number of those who chose to drive when they lost their precious express route.

I don't think in Ottawa there is actually that many people who actually have a reasonable choice about driving or taking transit.
For the small percentage of people who have a car sitting in their garage (or can afford to buy one but don't) while they take transit to work, parking is the issue not congestion on the 417, or elsewhere.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think in Ottawa there is actually that many people who actually have a reasonable choice about driving or taking transit.
For the small percentage of people who have a car sitting in their garage (or can afford to buy one but don't) while they take transit to work, parking is the issue not congestion on the 417, or elsewhere.

If you count choice transit users as people who live a car at home (even if it is because they don't want to pay 250 dollars a month for parking), then Ottawa has a huge amount of these. Most of your express ridership out of Kanata, Orleans and Barrhaven is made of these people, as well as many riders from other parts of the city.

70% of the downtown Ottawa workforce commutes by transit. Most of these are well-paying jobs, or at least well-paying enough for people to own a car. Plus most of the city outside the central core is not easily navigable for everyday errands without a car. So people do have cars, even if they leave them at home when they go to and from work.

I suspect a high proportion of OC Transpo passes are NEVER used for anything other than work commuting in the AM and PM peaks in either direction.

[Luker]

Hopefully we'll be able to see more quantified data when and if Presto ever comes online. The information is very telling; hopefully, somebody at OC Transpo has the inclination and expertise to use the data effectievly and pragmatically when available... Also hope the raw data is released to the public as well...