Sim-Southwest: Our Visionary Concepts Thread

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

I wonder if Phoenix will ever rename streets to keep the presidential theme going?

I doubt it, that would be too confusing for people used to the current names. Even the way they set it up initially was confusing. Washington was the center point, then Presidents alternated North and South in order of their presidency. So Adams (#2) is 1 North of Wash., then Jefferson (#3) is one South, and so on. But then they skipped some Presidents and its all confusing.

I think a better system would've been something like the major East-West road to be called "Main St". Then all the streets going North of there could be President names (in order, going North) and to the South all the streets could be State & Capitol names in alphabetical order (or Vice Versa with Presidents south and Cities/States North) Like so:

-----Harrison St-----
-----Van Buren St -----
-----Jackson St-----
-----Quincy St-----
-----Madison St-------
-----Jefferson St-------
-----Adams St---------
-----Washington St-----

-----Main Street-----

-----Alabama St-----
-----Montgomery St-----
-----Arizona St------
-----Phoenix St-----
-----Arkansas St-----
-----Little Rock St-----
-----California St-----
-----Sacramento St-----


But, its way too late now to change it and it would be super confusing. But that would've been a handy system, almost as easy to navigate as our numbered Street & Avenue system.

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Hoover, A good idea for DT Phx, I like it. I wonder if Phoenix will ever rename streets to keep the presidential theme going?

I'm sure you've seen both Paul Revere on a horse in the North End (often dressed up in Red Sox gear in the fall) and George Washington also on a horse in Boston Garden.

oh yeah, I'm sure Phoenix will decide that the streets they've had named for 50 years just isn't working and switch them all around. That sure won't confuse anyone.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I posted earlier in this thread about my jealousy of other big Cities and their traditional bronze 'great man on a horse' type statues and I got to thinking about that again. Here in Boston they have tons of statues and memorials, its terrific, it really beautifies the City and gives it a sense of place and permanence.

I was thinking maybe along some corridor through downtown (First Street probably) there should be statues commemorating the Presidents the East-West Streets were named for. There could also be plaques of information boards with info about that President, for some it'll be a lot of stuff we all know but for others (Polk, Fillmore, Taylor, etc.) it'll shed light on oft forgotten Presidents. Additionally each plaque/info board could have a "Arizona during X's Presidency" with history on what was going on in AZ at that time. Guys like Polk, Pierce, etc. obviously had huge impacts on Arizona history and that could be quite interesting.

Also while thinking about this I noticed on the map that Harrison street is the smallest of the Presidential streets, in most places it doesn't exist as it aligns with the railroad tracks. Fitting for a President who got sick during inauguration and died a few months into office.

It's a great idea, but can you imagine the uproar from the government haters here in AZ? Honor Presidents? Which one's? Only Republican's would be my guess. MA's history is as long as the republic so there's a natural affinity for that kind of respect and dedication. Now, if you wanted to name streets after big developers, now you're talkin'

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

oh yeah, I'm sure Phoenix will decide that the streets they've had named for 50 years just isn't working and switch them all around. That sure won't confuse anyone.

The confusion would only last for a little bit.

I guess cities can never change any street names ever once they're constructed...right?

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

The confusion would only last for a little bit.

I guess cities can never change any street names ever once they're constructed...right?

26 years of streets being the same name... for me that would be a hell of a habit to brake.

Sorry man, not to be a dick, but that's a really dumb idea to change street names.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

26 years of streets being the same name... for me that would be a hell of a habit to brake.

Sorry man, not to be a dick, but that's a really dumb idea to change street names.

The chances of this ever happening are probably 0%, however, I don't think it's a "dumb idea" to honor presidents, after all we honor many people after they die. The presidential club is very small and only changes every 4 to 8 years.

ie: MLK, JFK, Ronald Reagan, Malcolm X, George HW Bush, Ave of the Americas aka 6th Ave., fallen heros, etc.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

It's a great idea, but can you imagine the uproar from the government haters here in AZ? Honor Presidents? Which one's? Only Republican's would be my guess.

Welp luckily the only Republican to have a Downtown street named after him is Lincoln. I'm sure no one is hardcore enough to hate James K Polk or whoever else and protest something like that. Those early Presidents were Whigs, Democratic Republicans, Federalists, et cetera.

Though an Andrew Jackson statue may draw some ire from local American Indians, Trail of Tears and all.

[SunDevil]

How many millions would it cost in labor and materials to actually change the street names (signs)... every intersection, every single one. That's a lot of money for an aesthetic change that the majority would be opposed to, in any economy.

[Vicelord John]

Not to mention every company changing all of their collateral, phone books, maps, nav systems, uhm what else? Oh yea all of history.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

Welp luckily the only Republican to have a Downtown street named after him is Lincoln. I'm sure no one is hardcore enough to hate James K Polk or whoever else and protest something like that. Those early Presidents were Whigs, Democratic Republicans, Federalists, et cetera.

Though an Andrew Jackson statue may draw some ire from local American Indians, Trail of Tears and all.

Only Lincoln St? Garfield: Republican, Grant: Republican, Roosevelt: Republican (was not named after FDR), McKinley: Republican. Just sayin.

[combusean]

Central Avenue used to be called Center St, and all the original platted streets and avenues surrounding it used to be named after Indian tribes. McDowell used to be 16th St back in the day. Roosevelt was 10th. 7th St near downtown was called Cave Creek Road at one point or another.

The ones making the biggest stink about changing street names today would be police and fire.

[Leo the Dog]

Here's some street confusion for you:

Almost every city/town back east have a Washington St. When Boston started gobbling up surrounding towns to expand the city in the 1800's, they kept their Washington Streets that in no way align.

Today the city of Boston has 5 Washington Streets in the city limits of under 50 sq. miles. There are no zero points/center points either, so many addresses are very similar.

[HooverDam]

So in 2 weeks I'm going out to the Berkshire Mountains here in MA to go to Tanglewood, a large summer music festival. Its the summertime home of the Boston Pops and Boston Symphony and they bring in well known and noted musical acts of a pretty wide variety. The Berkshire area is also home to tons of museums, historic sites, etc.

Its just sort of a random thought but with the devastating wild fires up in the White Mountains I wonder if that area could re-invent itself and reposition itself along those sort of lines once they're back on their feet. Obviously a huge industry for them is tourism based on the natural beauty of the area, sadly gorgeous Hannagan Meadow won't look the same for a long time. Everyone likes to get out of the Valley when its 115 and if a summer home was built for rotating performances between the PHX Symphony, Arizona Opera, Ballet Arizona, Tucson Symphony Orchestra & Pops, Flagstaff Symphony Orchestra, Center Dance Ensemble, Phoenix Little Theater, etc would be freakin' rad.

Maybe its too far away from the population centers of PHX and Tucson, a 5+ hour drive is pretty tough. Perhaps Payson or Prescott would be more fitting, but the idea just sort of popped into my head as I was reading about the sad fires.

[HooverDam]

An idea:

As most of us know, Arizona is the only state in the Union to not allow TIFs (Tax Increment Financing). Its against State Law and I'm not entirely sure if its a constitutional issue or if it was simply a Bill outlawing them at some point. Either way, I was thinking about helpful I've seen TIFs be towards redevelopment in other cities that I've lived and visited and long for the AZ can harness them. Obviously its a uphill political climb at this point to get any TIFs at all.

That being said, AZ also has a horrific education system on all levels. Our higher eduction doesn't offer many options and of course K-12 we're always towards the bottom. Additionally, due to the recession and other factors our arts institutions have been suffering.

I wonder if it would be politically possible to allow for some sort of limited TIFs given the caveat that they could only be used for Education and Cultural developments. You'd have to define that pretty clearly so that weirdo organization claiming to be "cultural" couldn't take advantage of the system.

I'm thinking a lot of schools in need of new facilities could use TIFs, especially the Universities that have expensive major building programs. Plus if down the line a school like PC was "graduated" to a 4 year school they'd obviously have to go on an expensive building spree that would be difficult to fund. Additionally it would hopefully help places like the PHX Art Museum expand and to even bring new museums and schools into the City.

I wonder if the State could be convinced to go for something like a 10 year TIF program if limited to Education & Cultural institutions (and maybe Parks/shade too). At the end of that 10 year window the program could be re- evaluated and either ended, expanded beyond just education or eliminated all together.

Is this a totally stupid idea? I just thought it up, so I'm sure there's lots of things I'm not thinking of.

[nickw252]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

An idea:

As most of us know, Arizona is the only state in the Union to not allow TIFs (Tax Increment Financing). Its against State Law and I'm not entirely sure if its a constitutional issue or if it was simply a Bill outlawing them at some point.

I'm not an expert on TIF programs but I believe that the problem is that Arizona simply doesn't have legislation enabling tax increment financing. It's not a constitutional issue or anything, the law just doesn't exist.

That being said, knowing our legislature there will never be TIF in Arizona.

[combusean]

^ I like the idea in premise but it sets a terrible precedent. TIF should be used for niceties and urban things that aren't possible without significant municipal investment and public/private partnerships. Rio Nuevo's Rainbow Bridge was an excellent idea of a TIF project, but moronic Tucson couldn't build it along with everything else.

My problem with TIF is once we send those dollars to core priorities like education that aren't typically funded through TIF, we tacitly approve the brain-dead mechanisms or lack thereof in this state that lead to those institutions being perpetually shortchanged.

Look at ASU downtown. It was a good idea by itself, but wholly retarded. If ASU was sufficiently funded through state revenues, Phoenix could have used its limited bonding power for something else like its own signature project be that a city university, shade/arts district, liberal arts college, Rio Salado, historic preservation, etc. etc. etc.

Instead, we got what is effectively a mere geographic division from a commuter-focused state school with limited appeal. ASU downtown is more or less useless to somebody that's not a journalism or nursing student. All the while too few people ask why the city is conducting the state government's business.

[westbev93]

I am no expert on this area of the law, but I believe that TIF would only be a problem under the state constitution if it were used to fund private development projects (thereby possibly running afoul of the gift clause and the rules set forth by the Supreme Court in City North). So long as TIF were used to finance public projects like parks, there most likely would not be a problem.

That being said, you would need the enabling legislation, which would be unlikely given the state's political climate and aversion to spending money.

[HooverDam]

A thought: What about bringing the NHL Winter Classic to Phoenix? Outdoor hockey in the desert, impossible you say! Poppycock my good man! Err...sorry about the 1920's voice, anyhow...I'm thinking maybe it could be possible at Chase Field due to the NRG system. I was thinking about the 3rd street misting thing today and the idea popped into my head.

I imagine it could be done at Chase if the roof was kept closed the week leading up to the game while the rink was being built while NRG churned away. Then only 30 minutes before the game or something the roof and panels could be opened. I think it would be possible. The only potential hang up would perhaps be the surface, wasn't the ice rink at CityScape some kind of fake ice? I wonder if the NHL has some obscure rule stipulating real ice.

Obviously with the perpetual limbo the Coyotes are in it would also be a tough sell. But my thinking is maybe by staging the Winter Classic in PHX and if 50K showed up at Chase it could be a good showing for potential buyers. If they scheduled a team like the Red Wings who always bring out a good crowd (and have played the Yotes in the last 2 playoffs) I imagine they'd sell it out (if only for the novelty). Or a Winnipeg Jets v. Coyotes game could be interesting too, though I imagine that would sell more tickets in Winnipeg than AZ.

[HooverDam]

So with all the Hance Park meetings going on lately and me being in Boston, not able to attend, I've felt rather left out and helpless. From what I can glean it sounds like things are unsurprisingly headed in the wrong direction down a not very visionary or interesting path.

I've come up with a rough jumping off point plan for Hance Park I thought I'd share and if any of you get the time to look at it, I'd love some constructive criticism, ideas, etc.

Its 2 files, ones a PDF of the hand drawn Park Design that I did (remember, not a professional) and the other is a Power Point Slide Show that sort of outlines the ideas and what I'm going for. They're both large-ish files, so you can access them via my DropBox here:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34057494/Hance%20Park.pptx

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34057494/Hance_Park.pdf

[hrivas]

http://vimeo.com/33295172

i saw this the other day.
i have to say. presentation is everything and this was presented very oddly, almost distractingly.
it made it difficult to see what was actually being presented.