Pattullo Bridge Discussion: Upgrades/Replacement | U/C

[fever]

Yeah. Congestion charging is the way to go. Politically, it'll probably have to wait until there's a viable alternative. At least to my knowledge, there are no real alternatives proposed even in long range plans. A minimal viable alternative would be, in my estimation, a WCE-like commuter rail line from Langley to Vancouver. There are tracks there but that's about it. It would be very expensive.

[officedweller]

I think that integrating proper pedestrian and cycling facilities into the new bridge is a better way to go than maintaining two bridges for separate purposes.
The reason that the Patullo is being abandoned is the cost to maintain and repair it is prohibitive - although pedestrians and cyclists represent a different load on the bridge structure, it would still require significant costs over time to maintain the structure so it doesn't collapse. And if the old Patullo is used for pedestrians and cyclists, that would mean the new bridge wouldn't accommodate them - so what happens when the old Patullo does expire? That would leave the pedestrians and cyclists without a crossing.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I think that integrating proper pedestrian and cycling facilities into the new bridge is a better way to go than maintaining two bridges for separate purposes.
The reason that the Patullo is being abandoned is the cost to maintain and repair it is prohibitive - although pedestrians and cyclists represent a different load on the bridge structure, it would still require significant costs over time to maintain the structure so it doesn't collapse. And if the old Patullo is used for pedestrians and cyclists, that would mean the new bridge wouldn't accommodate them - so what happens when the old Patullo does expire? That would leave the pedestrians and cyclists without a crossing.

I agree that dollars needs to be looked at, I'm just amazed at the price of "maintenance" I guess. I haven't seen a good study of dollars and cents around the Patullo.

[SpongeG]

Surrey businesses oppose Pattullo tolls
Brian Morton, Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, September 02, 2008
Don't toll the Pattullo Bridge.

That's the word from a majority of Surrey business owners responding to a Surrey board of trade survey who believe that putting tolls on a new bridge to replace the aging structure would increase congestion and hurt local commerce.

"The main thing is that businesses feel they will have to dish out more money just to get to where they want to go," the board's executive-director, Anita Huberman, said in an interview Tuesday about the survey, which showed more than half its members oppose tolling. "It would discourage business from moving to Surrey due to the cost of crossing the bridge. It would discourage cross-business from Surrey to Vancouver. And lineups would be significant."

While the controversial twinning of the Port Mann Bridge will be tolled to pay for the project, Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon had said the Pattullo Bridge linking Surrey and New Westminster would remain as a free option for commuters crossing the Fraser River.

In July, however, TransLink began planning for a replacement for the Pattullo Bridge, and said it will be tolled as well because there is no other way to pay for a new bridge.

Directors approved "the development of a plan for the construction of a new tolled crossing to expedite the replacement of the existing Pattullo Bridge and improvements to related infrastructure," TransLink said.

However, TransLink hinted that it might be open to other financing approaches, saying it will explore "partnership opportunities with affected local and senior governments and stakeholders that have an interest in the Pattullo corridor."

The board decision followed a consultant's report that said it made more sense to build a new bridge than throw more money at the old one, which has structural problems, narrow lanes and curved approaches that have seen fatal head-on collisions.

Huberman said that while their survey indicated most members want a new Pattullo Bridge built, she'd like to see the federal government step in to provide some of the cash needed to offset the need for tolls. "Alternatives need to be sought. It could be [money] from the federal government."

According to the survey of about 715 businesses (out of a total 1,300 members), 54.9 per cent opposed tolls on the Pattullo, compared to 33 per cent who approved.

Many said tolling the Pattullo would be unfair, citing the lack of tolls from North Vancouver to Vancouver on the Lions Gate Bridge and the Ironworkers Memorial Bridge.

Others said the bridge should be maintained because it's a part of the Metro Vancouver road structure. If the Cambie Bridge were to be replaced, it wouldn't be tolled, they argue.

Some said if there were alternative free bridges to cross, they wouldn't object to a toll.

Huberman said there will also be tolls on the new Golden Ears Bridge, and that tolling the Alex Fraser Bridge has been discussed.

She also noted that the Golden Ears Bridge and the Pattullo Bridge are under TransLink's jurisdiction, while the Alex Fraser and Port Mann are under provincial jurisdiction.

The board of trade has not yet conducted a formal study on the impact to Surrey and South Fraser businesses if the Pattullo Bridge is eventually tolled, Huberman said.

Despite the survey results, Surrey Mayor Dianne Watts said earlier that she was "very pleased" with the announcement to build a new Pattullo Bridge - toll structure or not - because the current bridge "just does not function in this day and age."

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...c-2d3941197ee3

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

Many said tolling the Pattullo would be unfair, citing the lack of tolls from North Vancouver to Vancouver on the Lions Gate Bridge and the Ironworkers Memorial Bridge.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...c-2d3941197ee3

Seems like pretty good justification for region-wide tolling for me. At worst, this type of tolling might discourage consumers from crossing bridges in their cars to spend money, but it wouldn't stop them from taking skytrain to do so. I wonder if there's a list of the businesses somewhere that are opposed to the tolling vs. the ones who aren't. . . A sizable minority are apparently in favor of it. I wonder what types of businesses these are?

Given the location of most New Westminster businesses near good transit (unlike Surrey), it would be interesting to see if the two business communities differ in their opinions on tolling. Does anybody have this info?

[Distill3d]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

That's the word from a majority of Surrey business owners responding to a Surrey board of trade survey who believe that putting tolls on a new bridge to replace the aging structure would increase congestion and hurt local commerce.

EXACTLY...when they plan these things out, and call for tolls on the bridges, do they think about how horrible traffic will become if you toll a bridge? drivers will still have to STOP to pay for a toll at both ends of the bridge.

[jlousa]

I've driven many tolls roads in Europe and they don't have any backups, even in rush hour. How it works is at the toll point it expands like 3 lanes opens up to 8 toll booth lanes, then back to 3 lanes shortly later, the traffic spreads across and you don't get bunched up. Of course with RFID technology you could even eliminate toll booths all together.

[deasine]

Which is what they would do... Port Mann = electronic tolling, Golden Ears = electronic tolling

[SpongeG]

crossing the giolden gate we paid with cash and it was really easy and fast

they do not give change hence people will arrive with the correct amount

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

EXACTLY...when they plan these things out, and call for tolls on the bridges, do they think about how horrible traffic will become if you toll a bridge? drivers will still have to STOP to pay for a toll at both ends of the bridge.

Most modern tolling stations use lisence plate reading technology or have dedicated lanes for commuters with transponders. I highly doubt that tolling on a brand new structure would really be comprised of a few dozen inefficent highly expensive manned toll booths. Take a drive on the 407 ETR in Toronto if you want to see how tolling should work.

[nickinacan]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Most modern tolling stations use lisence plate reading technology or have dedicated lanes for commuters with transponders. I highly doubt that tolling on a brand new structure would really be comprised of a few dozen inefficent highly expensive manned toll booths. Take a drive on the 407 ETR in Toronto if you want to see how tolling should work.

That is an excellent example. It is possible that you may not even realize that you are on a tolled highway if you don't pay attention to the signs. They simply take a picture of your license plate and bill where ever it is registered to. Perfect. There's no stopping required.

[deasine]

All discussions regarding the fire have been moved to the Lower Mainland Roads thread: http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=151964

[eduardo88]

are there any rendering out there of the proposed replacement?

[SpongeG]

see page 5

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by eduardo88

are there any rendering out there of the proposed replacement?

Here's my mock up based on Option 3.

[eduardo88]

From the Delcan study:

[Metro-One]

Hate to say it, they should go with option 4! But to do it properly the entire thing (including the interchange in the middle) would have to be an elevated structure.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Hate to say it, they should go with option 4! But to do it properly the entire thing (including the interchange in the middle) would have to be an elevated structure.

Option 4 wouldn't solve anything. Option 4 is basically like a twin of the Port Mann Bridge. Most commuters on the Patullo are traveling into New Westminster/South Burnaby and vice versa... Option 4 hardly addresses this.

[LeftCoaster]

Yeah option 4 seems to make little sense. Might be a good future crossing if demand ever warrants it, but it doesnt really serve the current needs.

[twoNeurons]

Wouldn't that area be perfect for a signature bridge?

Something that could complement the Skytrain Bridge. Combine that with a new rail bridge, or with rail integrated into this one, and you could have quite a landmark bridge, visible from many pedestrian angles.