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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 12:28 AM
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I really don't want to get into this prop 8 argument but I'll just say in this rare case wburg is actually right on the money in relation to the job of the supreme court vs voter passed laws.

It's really sad how many people are willing to blindly support discriminatory laws despite the fact that our nations history is littered with other discriminatory laws that we now find repugnant. How is prop 8 any different?
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 1:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by econgrad View Post
^ There are regular people from San Francisco?

Wburg, both courts ruled on prop 22 if you read many articles on that website. What and how does this move me towards being wrong on voting yes on 8?
It doesn't, and no conservative court would be activist and overturn the voters. They are activists and liberal.
The word "activist" is a term of art. Both liberal and conservative judges are "activist," in that they overturn laws. During the 1930's the extremely conservative US Supreme Court was overturning many of the New Deal laws passed by congress and signed into law by the president.

A more recent example is when the US Supreme Court overturned the Violence Against Women Act (authored by Joe Biden). The conservative members voted to overturn it and the liberals voted to keep it.

I'm not very familiar with state courts, so I don't have any examples there. I will say that you should really reconsider calling the CA Supreme Court Justices "liberals." You do realize all but one was appointed by a Republican?
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 1:42 AM
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David Souter and John Paul Steven were appointed by RePUBElicans. That hardly makes them conservative.



Equality. Hmmmmmmm. What happens when equality flies in the face of right? If equality leads us in the direction of wrong, it is wrong. Sorry. 2+2 does not equal 5, and Man + Man (or Woman + Woman) does not equal marriage. You may want to check your Bibles and thousands of years of tradition. Prop 22 unconstitutional? Well, it depends on your interpretation. I doubt the framers of the state's constitution (as well as those who wrote the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution) intended it to support the twisted sham that is gay marriage.




I won't get into the whole Marbury v. Madison debate anymore, I know people think my position is stupid, and I know my views are not accepted. However, I'll leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson (another man with stupid positions):

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 3:48 AM
econgrad econgrad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
Obviously the facts won't stand against your mighty opinions, econgrad, so I won't bother reiterating the specific court cases that tossed out Prop. 22. I posted them already.

It's far from the first time that a state proposition was overturned. In California, voters approved Proposition 14 in 1964. This was in response to the Rumford Fair Housing Act, an act that made housing discrimination based on race illegal in California. Proposition 14 passed with wide popular support--65% yes, 35% no, thus maintaining the right of property owners to enforce racial covenants. Prior to the civil rights era, many property owners put these racial exclusion covenants on their property: it was illegal to sell the property to anyone who wasn't white. In 1967, the U.S. Supreme Court threw out Proposition 14, on the basis that it violated the 14th Amendment, and racial covenants finally fell by the wayside.

Why did the judges throw out Proposition 14? Because it violated the civil rights of American citizens. Even though the voters supported it with a significant majority, discriminatory laws like racial exclusion covenants are not acceptable under the Constitution.

Deciding whether or not laws are constitutional is EXACTLY the job of the courts. Whether laws are popular or not is not the issue, nor what the courts consider--they rule based on the constitutionality of the law. That isn't decided by who gets the most votes.
What facts? You read a summary from Wikipedia and you think you have facts? You can fool many people on this forum with your bogus arguements, try doing some full research. First off, trying to compare gay marriage to a civil rights issue (very insulting to the 7/10 blacks who voted yes on prop8) is bogus argument number 1, why? Marriage is limited by the law, we cannot marry a relative, or an underage person, nor a cow or a donkey. Prop 8 defines marriage in the constitution, "Between a Man and a Woman". That's it. Have all the civil unions you want, the only reason gays want to use the term marriage is their continued fight and war on religion. Their continued efforts to create a non religious secular society. All the arguments about civil rights is just smoke and mirrors.
Taught in Schools: It is a fact that if Prop 8 did not pass, gay marriage would be taught to as young as kindergarten. Its strange how we accept the government to pick up our children by buses, shipping them away to schools which we have no say in what is taught there. Parents should have absolute control over what their children are taught.
• In the year 2000, 61% of Californians voted in favor of marriage being designated as one man and one woman.
In 2008 four judges overturned this vote and determined that gay marriages should be legal.
• There are over six million households in California. Only 92,000 households are made up of gay couples. Less
than two percent of the population are on the verge of forever re-defining marriage for the other 98%. No longer
will there be Brides and Grooms. Only Party A and Party B.

With the passage of Prop 8, the gay community does not lose any rights, California already has in place a domestic partnership law that gives them all the rights of a married couple, but without re-defining what marriage is for the rest of the population. Continuing to prove this is not a civil rights issue but a war on traditional values and religion.

• If Proposition 8 did not pass and gay marriage was legalized, school-age children as young as kindergarten will be taught that gay marriage is equal to traditional marriage, regardless of what your beliefs are. In
Massachusetts, where gay marriage has been legal for several years, a father actually ended up behind bars after visiting his son’s school to request that he be allowed to “opt out” on behalf of his kindergarten child
when gay marriage is discussed.
He was told he would not be notified and that wasn’t an option. When he refused to leave the school grounds until they agreed to his request, he was arrested and put in jail. His case has
gone all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States, where he is waiting a decision to find out if they will consider hearing the arguments.
If Proposition 8 did not pass and gay marriage is legalized forever, just expressing out loud that you don’t agree with the gay lifestyle would be considered hate speech. Churches will lose their religious freedom and be
forced to perform gay marriages or risk penalties including fines and jail time for the pastor.


• If Proposition 8 did not pass, it could have opened the door for any number of others to argue their right to get married: this could include multiple partners, not limited to two; parent and child; brother and sister. Once the door is opened to re-define marriage, the re-definitions will go on and on.

• If the gay community will have in fact “won” the right to have their voices
heard and the conservative community and people of faith will forever lose their right to openly proclaim their religious beliefs. Their freedom to speak out their beliefs on behalf of traditional marriage and family will put
them at risk of being charged with a hate-crime.
• Children need a mother AND a father. Legalizing gay marriage tells children they only need what the adults in their life feel they need: two fathers or two mothers. Its an unproved experiment destined to become a social nightmare.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 3:57 AM
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marriage has taken on many different forms over the life of humans, so like society it has changed with the times. Religion and its views have no place in our laws or courts, and we are supposed to have a separation of "church and state" so a church's view can't influence laws as to what marriage is supposed to be, and after talking to family members who vote democratic but are church patrons on a regular basis THAT was their overall view as to why it was wrong, because of the bible, and more than likely the majority that supported prop 8.

when 65% + of married couples end in 7 years or less marriage is not what it used to be, and if marriage in our 21st century society is to be based on love, than all humans deserve that right, PERIOD!!!

my last points, the prop is illegal under california's constitution, and if you are not gay then don't claim to think you know wether it was a choice, or if they were born gay, if they were born gay which evidence and any gay person will tell you than to deny them rights for a thing that can't change about themselves is discrimination, just like racial marriages, land rights, genocide ect, within the next 40 years the view on gays will change as it did for blacks, and women, its time those that can't sit and find out who a real gay person is, how they think and that the same omni present being that created straight people also created gay people and loves them as well. the bible was written by man and has changed with him, its time to look forward and realize that what's custom, or religious has no bearing on the here and now.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 4:07 AM
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so are kids never on their own anyway going to find out about homosexuals? And if they did this might somehow turn them gay?

Parents don't take the time teach much at home anymore theses days, not all bur most, thats part of the problem we have with our younger generations coming up, it can be taught in school, or on tv, but when the subject matter is not to their liking they want gov't or laws to just hide it.

If parents want to do right by their kids they'll discuss these matters at home before anyone else can, present them their own views, what others think and allow their kids at an appropriate age to make their own view on the issues, hiding or sheltering only makes things worse as kids get older, they'll be more likely to try things or experiment, and no I dont mean gay sex. If the kids are gay they were born that way, hiding it, not teaching it, ect won't change that, the education argument was a way to make it better than basing it off religious views or customs.

If parents are so worried about their kids, then turn off the t.v, disconnect the internet, and take the kids outside, read a book, have discussions and be opened minded, the kids will be better for it.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 4:29 AM
econgrad econgrad is offline
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RE-read my post, parents should not be put in jail if they do not want their children exposed to a gay marriage.


More examples of the tolerant left:

LA Prop 8 Protesters Target Blacks

Unfortunately, you had to know this was coming.

Angered by the news that black voters were a major factor in the success of Prop 8, California's gay marriage ban, some segments of yesterday's anti-Prop 8 protests in LA soon devolved into hateful pits of racism:

Geoffrey, a student at UCLA and regular Rod 2.0 reader, joined the massive protest outside the Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood. Geoffrey was called the n-word at least twice.

It was like being at a klan rally except the klansmen were wearing Abercrombie polos and Birkenstocks. YOU NIGGER, one man shouted at men. If your people want to call me a FAGGOT, I will call you a nigger. Someone else said same thing to me on the next block near the temple…me and my friend were walking, he is also gay but Korean, and a young WeHo clone said after last night the niggers better not come to West Hollywood if they knew what was BEST for them.

Los Angeles resident and Rod 2.0 reader A. Ronald says he and his boyfriend, who are both black, were carrying NO ON PROP 8 signs and still subjected to racial abuse.

Three older men accosted my friend and shouted, "Black people did this, I hope you people are happy!" A young lesbian couple with mohawks and Obama buttons joined the shouting and said there were "very disappointed with black people" and "how could we" after the Obama victory. This was stupid for them to single us out because we were carrying those blue NO ON PROP 8 signs! I pointed that out and the one of the older men said it didn't matter because "most black people hated gays" and he was "wrong" to think we had compassion. That was the most insulting thing I had ever heard. I guess he never thought we were gay.

Gun owners and people who attend church weekly also overwhelmingly supported Prop 8, but protesters failed to single them out the way they did blacks. Perhaps that's because a gun owner isn't as easily spotted as a black person, or perhaps that's because gays, rightly, are especially angry that so many black Americans refuse to sympathize with their struggle. Regardless, it's likely that yesterday's incident was just the beginning of this insanity.

Source: http://www.stereohyped.com/la-prop-8...acks-20081110/



Published: November 12, 2008
“The mob exploded"


Frustrated by passage of Proposition 8, same-sex marriage backers turn to violence, vandalism, threats

While the California Supreme Court considers whether to hear a request to nullify a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriages approved by 52.3% of the state’s voters on Nov. 4, homosexual activists from one end of the state to the other have taken to the streets, attacking a 69-year-old woman in Palm Springs, vandalizing Mormon temples, holding protests outside Protestant and Catholic churches, and causing near-riots in cities like West Hollywood.

Near Sacramento, a Mormon house of worship was spray-painted with “No on 8;” in Riverside, “Yes on 8” signs were arranged to form a swastika on the lawn of a Catholic church; and in Carlsbad, members of the Knights of Columbus collecting money outside an Albertson’s grocery store over the weekend to help disabled children were told by the store manager to leave after same-sex marriage advocates complained that the Knights had contributed to the Yes on 8 campaign.

“Even Rick Warren's Saddleback Church was targeted by nearly a thousand protesters, despite the church's groundbreaking efforts to bring together evangelicals and liberal politicians to combat the global AIDS epidemic,” reported the Campaign for Children and Families.

“During protests over the past several days, homosexuals angry about the passage of Proposition 8, which reserves marriage licenses for a man and a woman, have hurled the N-word against black persons walking by, marched through police blockades, pounded on doors of businesses, and protested outside churches,” said a Campaign for Children and Families news release.

One of the most dramatic anti-Proposition 8 incidents occurred in Palm Springs last Friday during an anti-Prop. 8 rally outside city hall. “The rally got off to a rough start when the protesters verbally attacked a Prop. 8 supporter, Phyllis Burgsess,” the Desert Sun reported. “She carried a cross, which angered the crowd. A couple people knocked the cross out of her hand and stomped on it, sparking the rest of the crowd to charge her.” The newspaper reported yesterday that Burgsess has decided to file criminal charges against her assailants.

The attack on Burgsess was captured on film by KPSP television, CBS channel 2. (To see the footage, Click Here.)

Catholic News Agency, citing a story in the Meridian, a magazine for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), reported that a Los Angeles Police Department supervisor who is a practicing member of the religious group, said that several members of his church had received hate mail after their names, religious affiliation, contribution amounts, and addresses were published on a web site inciting Proposition 8 opponents to target the individuals listed.

The police supervisor, Paul Bishop, said some of the 2,500 protesters at the LDS Temple bore signs reading “Separation of Church and Hate” and “Mormon haters.” Some signs were left on the temple walls, according to CNA. “The late local news showed scenes of several Hispanic females in tears outside the temple trying to remove the signs desecrating the walls and fences surrounding the temple,” said Bishop. “As these individuals – who according to a temple spokesperson were not church members – removed the hate-filled signs, the mob exploded and began beating the individuals to the ground. Police intervened and arrests were made, but the fact this was allowed to happen at all was appalling.”

The Oakland Tribune reported that a protest outside a Mormon temple on Sunday forced the closing of nearby freeway off-ramps for more than three hours.

Another 2,500 protesters gathered at the steps of the state Capitol in Sacramento, said CNA. In downtown Los Angeles, about 150 protesters gathered outside the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels chanting, “What would Jesus say?”

Attorney Brad Dacus, president of the Pacific Justice Institute, said in a prepared statement he believes the ongoing vandalism and protests will backfire. "Californians are among the most tolerant people in the world,” said Dacus. “They are also not stupid, and they deliberately rejected forced acceptance of gay marriage, while leaving in place domestic partnerships and a host of other special rights based for homosexuals. The hatred and intimidation we are seeing right now from gay activists could set their movement back years. If anything, they are convincing a lot of Californians that we did the right thing by not caving in to their demands."

Said Randy Thomasson, president of the Campaign for Children and Families, "This screaming and shouting, name-calling and pushing by homosexual activists is not unlike a small child throwing a fit because he doesn't get his way. The public is getting a clue that homosexual activists don't like democracy and are willing to trample anyone and anything that gets in their way. How is it that those who demand tolerance from others are so intolerant of the people's vote to reserve marriage for a man and a woman?"

© California Catholic Daily 2008. All Rights Reserved.


Watch for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5ZDElQNBAQ

Last edited by econgrad; Nov 13, 2008 at 10:51 AM.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 2:53 PM
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Some interesting history about the history of marriages per The New Yorker...a few years old but still relevant.


Love Supreme
Gay nuptials and the making of modern marriage.
by Adam Haslett May 31, 2004 - The New Yorker

In December of 1990, Genora Dancel and Ninia Baehr, a lesbian couple from Honolulu, applied for and were denied a license to marry. They decided to file suit against the state for discrimination. The local branch of the A.C.L.U. declined to represent them, and the national gay legal organizations initially kept their distance, considering the issue premature. But the couple persisted, and three years later the Hawaii Supreme Court became the first in the nation to support the right of same-sex couples to wed. Conservative religious groups poured money into the state and eventually helped pass an amendment to its constitution declaring marriage an exclusively heterosexual institution.

More was at stake than the laws of Hawaii. Article IV of the United States Constitution establishes that “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.” This is the reason that a couple married in New York can fly to California and still legally be husband and wife when they land. Worried that other states might one day extend marriage rights to same-sex couples, conservatives in Congress introduced the Defense of Marriage Act, which defined marriage as between a man and a woman for the purposes of all federal law, from taxes to Social Security, and released the states from any constitutional obligation to recognize same-sex marriages that might be performed elsewhere. President Clinton, seeking to deny Bob Dole a wedge issue in his 1996 reëlection campaign, signed the bill late on a Friday night, after the press corps had gone home.

The issue’s sudden prominence during the past several months stems from a decision of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts last November to grant same-sex couples full civil marriage. For the first time in this country’s history, a state has sanctioned the marriage of two men or two women; because the Massachusetts constitution can’t be amended any sooner than 2006—the process is under way but by no means certain to succeed—it will do so for at least the next two years. The Bay State thus joins the Netherlands, Belgium, and three Canadian provinces in offering gay couples not only the rights and obligations of marriage but the word itself.

The ensuing national ferment has become a struggle over the meaning and purpose of matrimony. For marriage as we know it today is the product of a particular history—a history that explains both its public character and the private expectations we have for it. The advent of same-sex marriage brings into focus a much larger transformation in how we have come to imagine the institution.

For centuries in Europe, formal marriage was a private contract between landed families, designed to insure that property remained within a particular lineage. In the upper classes, families essentially married other families, forging political alliances and social obligations among relatives and kin. It was during the Reformation, with the emergence of the early Protestant idea of “companionate marriage,” that the emotional bond between husband and wife came to be seen as an end in itself. As the social historian Lawrence Stone noted, this was a marked departure from the Catholic ideal of chastity, which considered earthly marriage a more or less unfortunate necessity meant to accommodate human weakness; “It is better to marry than to burn,” St. Paul had said, but he made it sound like a close call. So when the Puritans wrote of husbands and wives as mutually respectful and affectionate partners they were moving toward a new understanding of marriage as a kind of spiritual friendship.

It was Milton who took this concept to its logical conclusion. Having married a woman with whom he soon discovered he had nothing in common, he became a staunch advocate of divorce. When the “meet and happy conversation” that is “the chiefest and the noblest end of marriage” ceases, he argued, no authority should have the power to force a man and a woman to remain wed. It was hundreds of years before the law caught up with his notion that irreconcilable differences might be grounds for divorce. But what his tracts on the subject demonstrate is that early Protestant thinking about matrimony contained the seeds of our own more radical individualism.

These days, few would disagree that respect and affection are central to a successful marriage. But most of us would add another ingredient, which had long been viewed skeptically as a reason to wed: romantic love. Burton, in his “Anatomy of Melancholy”—the most widely read book of the seventeenth century after the Bible—reflected a common view when he described marriage as one of several “remedies of love,” which was itself an illness to be overcome. Not until the confessional diaries and novels of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries started to influence bourgeois notions of what Jane Austen called “connubial felicity” did romance begin its steady ascent in the marital realm. Today, needless to say, the most respectable reason you can give for getting married is that you have fallen in love. We have managed to create an ideal of matrimony that combines both lifetime companionship and the less stable but more intoxicating pleasures of romantic ardor.

Such great expectations of marital happiness belong to a larger history of the Western emphasis on the self. The philosopher Charles Taylor, in an examination of how our attitude toward interior life has changed over the past five hundred years, argues that the trend line runs in one direction: from a self-understanding gained from our place in larger entities—such as a chain of being or divine order—toward purpose discovered from within, through what we consider to be authentic self-expression. This is the distance Western culture has travelled from the church confessional to the therapist’s couch. In turn, the choice of whom to marry has become less about satisfying the demands of family and community than about satisfying oneself. When you add the contraceptive and reproductive technologies that have separated sex from procreation, what you have is a model of heterosexual marriage that is grounded in and almost entirely sustained on individual preference. This is a historically peculiar state of affairs, one that would be alien to our ancestors and to most traditional cultures today. And it makes the push for gay marriage inevitable.

If agreement between two people were all that was required, of course, gays and lesbians would have been marrying for some time already. According to the 2000 census, the first to collect such data, there are five hundred and ninety-four thousand same-sex couples living in the United States (and that’s no doubt an undercount, given people’s reluctance to report their sexual orientation to the government). But marriage requires the consent of a third party—namely, the state.

This fact, too, can be traced to the same early Protestants who gave us companionate marriage. As the journalist E. J. Graff tells us, in her newly reissued popular history “What Is Marriage For?” (Beacon; $16), at the time Luther nailed his proclamations to the door, Rome had no requirement that a priest be present at the wedding ceremony; vows spoken in private were sufficient to create a binding marriage. That caused the aristocracy no end of trouble, given that disobedient children were liable to threaten carefully negotiated contracts by running into the closet with a servant and whispering sweet promises. For the northern European Protestants, the solution was to require, for the first time, a public ceremony with the presence of witnesses. They also transferred the power to enforce the new rules to the emerging secular states. In England, precaution had long taken the form of “banns”: a couple’s intention to wed was proclaimed in church on three successive Sundays, thus giving a community plenty of time to determine whether either party was committed elsewhere. The state-issued marriage licenses we employ today originated in magistrates’ offices and enabled well-to-do families to avoid the banns by attesting to the fitness of the parties in a document.

Informal arrangements nevertheless persisted among those who were less well off, or who lived in less regulated societies. In the early days of the American Republic, with a population scattered across the continent, there were simply too few ministers and justices of the peace to go around. Largely for the practical reason of not wanting to declare so many children bastards, most state courts recognized common-law marriage, established by mutual consent and cohabitation. If you said you were married and the neighbors tended to believe you, then in the eyes of the law you were. (In eleven states, including Texas, this is still the case.) In the decades after the Civil War, however, government bureaucracy, spurred by the moralists and social scientists of the Progressive movement, began to regulate marriage far more aggressively. For the first time, people who sought to wed had to submit to medical examinations, and those with syphilis or gonorrhea were prevented from marrying by criminal statute. By the century’s end, state legislatures had all but mandated that couples obtain a license to marry.

These government-sponsored contracts are at the center of the fight over same-sex unions. In the modern administrative state, civil marriage condenses within a single document a vast array of legal, financial, and medical rights and benefits. Like citizenship for the immigrant, it is a passport to a more secure world. As the old status of marriage has come to include such a range of contractual benefits, the debates over equality within and access to the institution have intensified.

Owing to the reforms of the past forty years, men and women now enter the married state with more legal parity than ever before. Under the old doctrine of coverture, a man owned not only his wife’s property but her body as well. Today, in nearly every state, men’s and women’s rights and obligations in alimony, child custody, child support, and property division in divorce have been made formally gender-neutral. Arrests and prosecutions for domestic abuse, rare thirty years ago, are now routine. As recently as 1984, a man could not be prosecuted for raping his own wife; today, it’s a crime in all fifty states.

During the same period that the old patriarchal rules were being revised, the Supreme Court struck down a series of laws limiting the right of individuals to marry in the first place. In the most famous case, Loving v. Virginia, a unanimous Court held that anti-miscegenation laws were unconstitutional. “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men,” Chief Justice Warren wrote in 1967. A decade later, a Wisconsin law preventing people from marrying if they were behind on their child-support payments was overturned as too burdensome to the “basic civil rights of man.” In 1987, the Rehnquist Court deemed the freedom to marry so fundamental that it could not be denied to prison inmates, whose other constitutional rights are routinely abrogated.

Those who opposed extending this right to same-sex couples used to cite the fact that many states outlawed sodomy: how could you sanction the marriage of people who could be arrested for what they did together in the bedroom? Then, last summer, in Lawrence v. Texas, the Court struck down the thirteen remaining sodomy laws in the country, and established a broad constitutional right to sexual privacy. The force and scope of the opinion surprised even its supporters. In a rare gesture, the Court not only overturned Bowers v. Hardwick, a 1986 opinion upholding a Georgia sodomy statute, but in essence apologized for it: “Its continuance as precedent demeans the lives of homosexual persons.” The majority was careful to point out that the decision said nothing about the “formal recognition” of relationships. But opponents of same-sex marriage realized the decision’s importance. As Justice Scalia warned in a caustic dissent, “If moral disapprobation of homosexual conduct is ‘no legitimate state interest’ . . . what justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising ‘the liberty protected by the Constitution’? Surely not the encouragement of procreation, since the sterile and the elderly are allowed to marry.” Five months later, the Massachusetts high court cited Lawrence in its decision.

Social conservatives now fear that, in the absence of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, the Supreme Court will combine its precedents on the fundamental right to marry with the more recent decisions in favor of gay rights to give same-sex couples their own Loving v. Virginia—nationalizing gay marriage through constitutional interpretation. As a doctrinal matter, such fears are well grounded. Few legal scholars would disagree with Justice Scalia that Lawrence has made this outcome far more plausible.

Politically, however, a gay Loving is unlikely in the foreseeable future. The Supreme Court is seldom a force of social innovation. The first state to strike down its anti-miscegenation law was California, in 1948. For nearly two decades thereafter, all through the period of Brown v. Board of Education, the Court avoided the controversy over interracial marriage, exercising its discretion not to hear a case. By the time it decided Loving, fourteen states had followed California’s lead, and only sixteen still maintained a ban. The Court endorsed what had become a majority position, if not in public opinion at least in legislative fact; the same can be said of Lawrence. The modern conservative obsession with what is selectively dubbed judicial activism has much to do with Roe v. Wade, and the fact that it struck down thirty state laws criminalizing abortion. No less an advocate of abortion rights than Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has suggested that it may have been precipitate not to allow the states to come to a stronger consensus before the Court brought the reform process to an end. In the informal electorate of the states, the vote on full civil marriage for same-sex couples now stands at forty-nine to one. It is difficult to conceive of the Supreme Court recognizing a right to gay marriage under these circumstances.

Meanwhile, interest groups on both sides are lobbying legislators and filing more suits, in an attempt to shape the outcome in one jurisdiction at a time. As a legal matter, these are contests over the expansion of the rights and obligations of marriage. As a political and cultural matter, they are contests over something less easy to codify: the official recognition of love. Here the two most important developments in the history of marriage—secular regulation and the rise of the romantic-companionate ideal—become intertwined. The state is being asked not only to distribute benefits equally but to legitimate gay people’s love and affection for their partners. The gay couples now marrying in Massachusetts want not only the same protections that straight people enjoy but the social status that goes along with the state’s recognition of a romantic relationship.

This is the difference between civil unions and marriage: one is a legal certificate and the other is a public endorsement. Not surprisingly, many Americans who might support the first remain uncomfortable with the second. In “Gay Marriage” (Times Books; $22), the journalist Jonathan Rauch means to persuade such people that same-sex marriage will be good not only for gay people but for marriage in general. Rauch is a conservative—how many books garner blurbs from both George Will and Barney Frank?—and his argument for the benefits to gay people is based largely on the social discipline he thinks it would impose: once gay men and lesbians are allowed to wed, society can begin expecting them to do so, as it does straight people. “The gay rights era will be over and the gay responsibility era will begin,” he writes. This soft coercion is a civilizing force, because “no other institution has the power to turn narcissism into partnership, lust into devotion, strangers into kin.” We shouldn’t expect results too soon, however: “As with the coming of capitalism to the Soviet empire, so with the coming of marriage to gay culture. Freedom and responsibility take time to learn.” With analogies as inviting as this, one wonders whether snuggling gay lovers ought to take a bus tour of Putin’s Russia before heading to the altar. Though clearly a true believer in matrimony, Rauch doesn’t make it sound like much fun.

The real threat to marriage, he says, is the growth of registered cohabitation, from domestic partnerships to civil unions, which increasingly includes unwed heterosexuals. He warns that we are heading to the day when marriage—straight or gay—will become “merely an item on a mix-and-match menu of lifestyle options, a truffle in the candy box.” For Rauch, whose view of marriage is more medicinal than confectionary, letting gays marry will actually help marriage by relieving the pressure to create alternatives.

What’s undeniable is that the battle over same-sex marriage arrives at a time of declining participation in the institution itself. The number of marriages performed each year in the United States (2.3 million) is as low as it has ever been relative to the adult population. As Andrew Hacker has pointed out, nearly half of Americans reach the age of thirty without having married, and almost twelve per cent of women and sixteen per cent of men enter their forties still never having wed—the highest percentages in the nation’s history.

As the numbers wane, though, the fantasy seems to grow more intense. The wedding industry generates at least seventy billion dollars a year in revenue, which is double the earnings of the movie business. Bridal magazines are some of the most profitable on the newsstand. The ersatz courtship of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette has provided some of the highest-rated television programming in recent years. At the same time, the pressures on the partnership that follows the wedding day are enormous: in an era of low civic participation and high economic insecurity, spouses are ever more relied upon as the sole providers of continuity and human solace. A state-sponsored, lifelong, intimate relationship—or the prospect of it—now carries a heavy and often unbearable responsibility for personal happiness.

What effect will allowing men to marry men and women to marry women have on our peculiarly modern venture of marriage? Proponents typically say that it will have hardly any—that there is no shortage of marriage licenses, and all that will happen is that more citizens and their children will have the benefits of existing family law. The opposition argues that one of the organizing institutions of our society will be imperilled.

History suggests that neither view is quite accurate. Despite comparisons to the repeal of miscegenation laws, no other expansion of the marriage franchise—to the sterile, to slaves, or to interracial couples—has required an alteration in the basic definition of the term: the union of a man and woman as husband and wife. To discount this as mere semantics misses what the definition points up: that marriage, through all its incarnations, has been a procedure that assigns people a new identity based on their gender. For centuries, it has been the ceremony that makes males into husbands and females into wives. Until very recently, this meant a lifetime commitment to both the security and the constriction of a well-defined social role. The symbolic danger that gay marriage poses to such an arrangement is obvious. It alters the public meaning of the word by further draining it of its power to reinforce traditional expectations of behavior. What does it mean to be a husband in a world where a man could have one of his own? This is up to each individual couple, one is tempted to say. Fair enough; but the words we use to describe our relationships are shared cultural property. There is no private language. In this sense, granting the word “marriage” to gay couples will eventually affect everyone.

The mistake is to consider the change in meaning particularly drastic. After all, undoing customary expectations for how a husband and wife behave toward each other has been one of the goals of the women’s movement since its inception. Rather than an abrupt departure, same-sex marriage is the culmination of a larger and ultimately more consequential change in the nature of marital relations between men and women.

Which is one of the reasons that the opposition to it is so fierce. It has come to symbolize what is, historically speaking, radical about contemporary marriage: the decline of the patriarchal legal structure and the rise of the goal of self-fulfillment. Gay marriage is unsettling, to many, not because it departs from modern meanings of matrimony but because it embodies them. ♦
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  #89  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 4:24 PM
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violence is never right, nor are slurs towards others, that being said, just like racial crimes were and are under reported, a few incidents of people being rash does not mean the majority of people opposed to prop 8 act or feel that way, and for the few acting out I'm sure they have seen and heard worse, doesn't make it right but the radical behavior argument goes both ways.

So in terms of what kids will feel as right or wrong if they dont have a mom or dad? My mom is a lesbian, single, makes north of $100k and my brother is happily married to a women for 4 yrs and they have an almost 2 yr old son, he also serves in the air force watches football, loves cars, he's a normal straight man.

I could list many more examples of other kids who came out just fine from being in a gay household which comes back to the point, your either born gay, or not, there's no oh janes got two mommies so I can do that too, just doesn't work that way.

Also my mom is African American, my dad is white, years ago we didn't know how interracial marriages would affect how kids see the world, these same arguments about how being different will change society is just ridiculous and have nothing to do with the law.

Since my mom is 54 years old, she's old enough to know about being segregated, different races not being able to marry, the arguments that were used against them are the same now, and since she knows she was born a lesbian and a black she can't change these things about herself, oh btw she was raised in a family where her parents stayed married till my grandmother passed away a few years ago, she has two sisters and two brothers, and they weren't exposed to any sort of gay lifestyle, they were actually air force brats.

So again, if a person is born black, or asian, or arab, or gay, how is it we can strip them of rights, or what we think is the right way? Gays make up an estimated 10% of the population, african americans around 12%, asians about the same, minority groups afforded equal rights under the law, until I hear an argument about how gays aren't born gay, and therefore aren't protected under the law for discrimination than I can't see how making marriage between just a man and women is fair, or right.

Some of the people so afraid of how gays raising kids will affect them should actually go and spend a month in a "real gay household". Not the west hollywood, queer as folk, will and grace gay that people seem to think gays represent, but a home where parents are raising their kids, working, being normal except for the fact they were born gay, they might find they have a lot more in common than what meets the eye, and that the kids in these families are just fine, if anything they are usually much more tolerant of other peoples differences than those who don't get exposed to other points of view.

In our society today marriage is supposed to be about love, and being together. Laws shouldn't be involved, schools shouldn't be involved, religion shouldn't be involved, customs, ect, it should be about the couples love and commitment to one another, and if those people were born gay, they should have equal rights to the same as their straight brothers and sisters.

so heres the debate I'd like to see, forget these protest against church, or social worries, If someone is born gay why is it that we should take away their rights, or treat them differently? And since minorities are born the color they are, being born gay is the same in that you can't change that about yourself, the only difference is gay people can hide the fact they are gay, and lie about it, and that too is wrong, its wrong they lie about it, but worse they feel because of society they can't be who they really are or love whom they are hard wired to love.
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  #90  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2008, 10:53 PM
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Bennywah - It seems as if our disagreement is this, and I do not see anyway of finding middle ground. I am not convinced that a person is born anything. Being gay is a sexual act, it is not a race, it is not a culture, it is not something that is definable other than by thoughts and actions. Therefore to call it a civil rights issue as the same as blacks is not a valid point to me. We are not slaves to our genes nor slaves to our passions. There is truth, not just peoples opinions, there is a natural law and an absolute truth that applies to every society no matter what. We will see what the courts say in prop 8. Prop 8 has nothing to do with the debate of being born gay or not. Did you know Pre-1960's Homosexuality in the United States was considered by science a mental disorder, in ancient times in some societies it was the norm, it was just part of life and culture. For many who studied Greek and Roman culture (Pre-Christianity) it was such the norm that it could not be a "born this way" genetic code, therefore it was a learned behavior as with all cultural behaviors. Many see it as a battle for culture, the "Culture War" if you have not heard that term yet. Let's give it a rest and see what the courts say. I do agree with you, I believe we should all live in peace no matter what your beliefs are.

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Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 12:51 AM
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So there's not even gay culture now? Wow, you're venturing pretty far out there, Reagan Boy...
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  #92  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2008, 5:49 PM
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well its a good thing we can all be pretty civil towards each other on this forum, hopefully others on both sides of the ball can do the same.

we can agree to disagree, and I have no idea whom you associate yourself with and how well you know them, and I'm aware of the historical, cultural applications of homosexuals in society, all I would say to you since you seem to know how to research and have the means to reason is this.

With people you know are gay, and those you don't, really ask them why, how, and when they knew they were gay, and you can do this across the country and the world and the answers will start to sound the same. I think the only way to really know wether something is a choice or not is to really understand the people who may be making them, I think you'll also find the majority of these people were raised in normal christian families, and you'll also hear about their struggles to come to grips with who they are, no book or study can have the impact of hearing this one on one.

Being human and knowing we can reason but also sense sincerity when its real has the power to sway opinions doesn't mean you may 100% agree but just like in a court case you might have doubts about how you thought before and realize maybe I should allow people to have their rights, instead of force my beliefs on them. With that I'm done with that particular discussion and will wait to see what the courts do.
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Old Posted Nov 15, 2008, 5:13 AM
econgrad econgrad is offline
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Originally Posted by bennywah View Post
well its a good thing we can all be pretty civil towards each other on this forum, hopefully others on both sides of the ball can do the same.

we can agree to disagree, and I have no idea whom you associate yourself with and how well you know them, and I'm aware of the historical, cultural applications of homosexuals in society, all I would say to you since you seem to know how to research and have the means to reason is this.

With people you know are gay, and those you don't, really ask them why, how, and when they knew they were gay, and you can do this across the country and the world and the answers will start to sound the same. I think the only way to really know wether something is a choice or not is to really understand the people who may be making them, I think you'll also find the majority of these people were raised in normal christian families, and you'll also hear about their struggles to come to grips with who they are, no book or study can have the impact of hearing this one on one.

Being human and knowing we can reason but also sense sincerity when its real has the power to sway opinions doesn't mean you may 100% agree but just like in a court case you might have doubts about how you thought before and realize maybe I should allow people to have their rights, instead of force my beliefs on them. With that I'm done with that particular discussion and will wait to see what the courts do.
Deal! Believe it or not, I have some gay friends. I am friends with a manager at Badlands, but never had a deep discussion about this. I really never had the guts to bring it up in person, but I will ask in a friendly away about their point of view and then express mine and see what happens.

And krudmonk.......Reagan boy?
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  #94  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2008, 6:11 AM
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cool, hopefully more people on both sides can do the same.
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  #95  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2008, 6:22 AM
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David Souter and John Paul Steven were appointed by RePUBElicans. That hardly makes them conservative.

I won't get into the whole Marbury v. Madison debate anymore, I know people think my position is stupid, and I know my views are not accepted. However, I'll leave you with the words of Thomas Jefferson (another man with stupid positions):

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy."
Well not all the founding fathers agreed with you and your pal Jefferson. James Madison believed that Equal Protection was at its apex when the ordinary political processes are inadequate to protect unpopular minorities from "the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."

Additionally, by the time of Marbury v. Madison, most state supreme courts already were the ultimate arbiters of their constitutions. That's where constitutional review originated.
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Old Posted Nov 15, 2008, 5:15 PM
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Message to all Prop 8 No supporters.

I've never heard so much bellyaching from losers than the prop 8 No supporters.

You've had your chance...there was a fair election....you lost...with no controversy...deal with it!

You all think you are soooo right and act so righteous...while the people that supported prop 8 are either stupid, ignorant, racist, religious fanatics...and other derrogatory names.

But, more you bellyache and stage protest, marches, devise attacks on churches etc, more support you will LOSE from the general public.

So keep this campaign going!...as if election did not occur...find loop holes, hold press conferences, beg the supreme court to intervene, look for Prop 8 supporters and "out" them and threaten their job... etc etc

I really want you to...because your actions will only hurt your cause and alienate the general public.
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  #97  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2008, 12:37 AM
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Well not all the founding fathers agreed with you and your pal Jefferson. James Madison believed that Equal Protection was at its apex when the ordinary political processes are inadequate to protect unpopular minorities from "the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority."
I wonder if Madison's thinking applied to a state's recognition of gay marriage. Hmmmmmmmm. I'll go out on a limb and say, probably NOT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsf8278 View Post
Additionally, by the time of Marbury v. Madison, most state supreme courts already were the ultimate arbiters of their constitutions. That's where constitutional review originated.
I don't say this to be rude, but.......SO??? OK, most states already had judicial review. That does not convince me to agree with the practice.

Again, I prefer constitutions be interpreted/upheld by the people and their direct representatives. You prefer they be upheld by a small group of unelected, elitist, lifers. I understand why people like judicial review, but I also understand the problems it creates. It seems that old TJ agreed with me. I'll take it. You want Madison? You got him.

Now, I say we all stop arguing and get together for some fun. I know!!!! Let's go to a California Musical Theater production. I hear they do a great job due to their awesome artistic director, Scott Eckern. Oh, wait....... That's right, he does not work with the California Musical Theater anymore. Hmmmmmmmmm.......I wonder why? Wouldn't it be funny if he gave like, I don't know, let's say $1,000 to support Proposition 8 and the tolerant and diverse gay community found out about it and forced him to resign? No, that could never happen in the United States. Oh, wait....
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Last edited by snfenoc; Nov 16, 2008 at 12:55 AM.
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  #98  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2008, 12:40 AM
LivingInExile LivingInExile is offline
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Hahahahahaha, Stay classy East Sac!
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  #99  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2008, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bennywah View Post
violence is never right, nor are slurs towards others, that being said, just like racial crimes were and are under reported, a few incidents of people being rash does not mean the majority of people opposed to prop 8 act or feel that way, and for the few acting out I'm sure they have seen and heard worse, doesn't make it right but the radical behavior argument goes both ways.

So in terms of what kids will feel as right or wrong if they dont have a mom or dad? My mom is a lesbian, single, makes north of $100k and my brother is happily married to a women for 4 yrs and they have an almost 2 yr old son, he also serves in the air force watches football, loves cars, he's a normal straight man.

I could list many more examples of other kids who came out just fine from being in a gay household which comes back to the point, your either born gay, or not, there's no oh janes got two mommies so I can do that too, just doesn't work that way.

Also my mom is African American, my dad is white, years ago we didn't know how interracial marriages would affect how kids see the world, these same arguments about how being different will change society is just ridiculous and have nothing to do with the law.

Since my mom is 54 years old, she's old enough to know about being segregated, different races not being able to marry, the arguments that were used against them are the same now, and since she knows she was born a lesbian and a black she can't change these things about herself, oh btw she was raised in a family where her parents stayed married till my grandmother passed away a few years ago, she has two sisters and two brothers, and they weren't exposed to any sort of gay lifestyle, they were actually air force brats.

So again, if a person is born black, or asian, or arab, or gay, how is it we can strip them of rights, or what we think is the right way? Gays make up an estimated 10% of the population, african americans around 12%, asians about the same, minority groups afforded equal rights under the law, until I hear an argument about how gays aren't born gay, and therefore aren't protected under the law for discrimination than I can't see how making marriage between just a man and women is fair, or right.

Some of the people so afraid of how gays raising kids will affect them should actually go and spend a month in a "real gay household". Not the west hollywood, queer as folk, will and grace gay that people seem to think gays represent, but a home where parents are raising their kids, working, being normal except for the fact they were born gay, they might find they have a lot more in common than what meets the eye, and that the kids in these families are just fine, if anything they are usually much more tolerant of other peoples differences than those who don't get exposed to other points of view.

In our society today marriage is supposed to be about love, and being together. Laws shouldn't be involved, schools shouldn't be involved, religion shouldn't be involved, customs, ect, it should be about the couples love and commitment to one another, and if those people were born gay, they should have equal rights to the same as their straight brothers and sisters.

so heres the debate I'd like to see, forget these protest against church, or social worries, If someone is born gay why is it that we should take away their rights, or treat them differently? And since minorities are born the color they are, being born gay is the same in that you can't change that about yourself, the only difference is gay people can hide the fact they are gay, and lie about it, and that too is wrong, its wrong they lie about it, but worse they feel because of society they can't be who they really are or love whom they are hard wired to love.
Good Job, benywah, ---- a voice of reason, tolerance, fairness, and equality.
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Last edited by BrianSac; Nov 16, 2008 at 7:23 PM.
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  #100  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2008, 6:10 PM
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Some interesting history about the history of marriages per The New Yorker...a few years old but still relevant.


Love Supreme
Gay nuptials and the making of modern marriage.
by Adam Haslett May 31, 2004 - The New Yorker

In December of 1990, Genora Dancel and Ninia Baehr, a lesbian couple from Honolulu, applied for and were denied a license to marry. They decided to file suit against the state for discrimination. The local branch of the A.C.L.U. declined to represent them, and the national gay legal organizations initially kept their distance, considering the issue premature. But the couple persisted, and three years later the Hawaii Supreme Court became the first in the nation to support the right of same-sex couples to wed. Conservative religious groups poured money into the state and eventually helped pass an amendment to its constitution declaring marriage an exclusively heterosexual institution.

More was at stake than the laws of Hawaii. Article IV of the United States Constitution establishes that “Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State.” This is the reason that a couple married in New York can fly to California and still legally be husband and wife when they land. Worried that other states might one day extend marriage rights to same-sex couples, conservatives in Congress introduced the Defense of Marriage Act, which defined marriage as between a man and a woman for the purposes of all federal law, from taxes to Social Security, and released the states from any constitutional obligation to recognize same-sex marriages that might be performed elsewhere. President Clinton, seeking to deny Bob Dole a wedge issue in his 1996 reëlection campaign, signed the bill late on a Friday night, after the press corps had gone home.

The issue’s sudden prominence during the past several months stems from a decision of the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts last November to grant same-sex couples full civil marriage. For the first time in this country’s history, a state has sanctioned the marriage of two men or two women; because the Massachusetts constitution can’t be amended any sooner than 2006—the process is under way but by no means certain to succeed—it will do so for at least the next two years. The Bay State thus joins the Netherlands, Belgium, and three Canadian provinces in offering gay couples not only the rights and obligations of marriage but the word itself.

The ensuing national ferment has become a struggle over the meaning and purpose of matrimony. For marriage as we know it today is the product of a particular history—a history that explains both its public character and the private expectations we have for it. The advent of same-sex marriage brings into focus a much larger transformation in how we have come to imagine the institution.

For centuries in Europe, formal marriage was a private contract between landed families, designed to insure that property remained within a particular lineage. In the upper classes, families essentially married other families, forging political alliances and social obligations among relatives and kin. It was during the Reformation, with the emergence of the early Protestant idea of “companionate marriage,” that the emotional bond between husband and wife came to be seen as an end in itself. As the social historian Lawrence Stone noted, this was a marked departure from the Catholic ideal of chastity, which considered earthly marriage a more or less unfortunate necessity meant to accommodate human weakness; “It is better to marry than to burn,” St. Paul had said, but he made it sound like a close call. So when the Puritans wrote of husbands and wives as mutually respectful and affectionate partners they were moving toward a new understanding of marriage as a kind of spiritual friendship.

It was Milton who took this concept to its logical conclusion. Having married a woman with whom he soon discovered he had nothing in common, he became a staunch advocate of divorce. When the “meet and happy conversation” that is “the chiefest and the noblest end of marriage” ceases, he argued, no authority should have the power to force a man and a woman to remain wed. It was hundreds of years before the law caught up with his notion that irreconcilable differences might be grounds for divorce. But what his tracts on the subject demonstrate is that early Protestant thinking about matrimony contained the seeds of our own more radical individualism.

These days, few would disagree that respect and affection are central to a successful marriage. But most of us would add another ingredient, which had long been viewed skeptically as a reason to wed: romantic love. Burton, in his “Anatomy of Melancholy”—the most widely read book of the seventeenth century after the Bible—reflected a common view when he described marriage as one of several “remedies of love,” which was itself an illness to be overcome. Not until the confessional diaries and novels of the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries started to influence bourgeois notions of what Jane Austen called “connubial felicity” did romance begin its steady ascent in the marital realm. Today, needless to say, the most respectable reason you can give for getting married is that you have fallen in love. We have managed to create an ideal of matrimony that combines both lifetime companionship and the less stable but more intoxicating pleasures of romantic ardor.

Such great expectations of marital happiness belong to a larger history of the Western emphasis on the self. The philosopher Charles Taylor, in an examination of how our attitude toward interior life has changed over the past five hundred years, argues that the trend line runs in one direction: from a self-understanding gained from our place in larger entities—such as a chain of being or divine order—toward purpose discovered from within, through what we consider to be authentic self-expression. This is the distance Western culture has travelled from the church confessional to the therapist’s couch. In turn, the choice of whom to marry has become less about satisfying the demands of family and community than about satisfying oneself. When you add the contraceptive and reproductive technologies that have separated sex from procreation, what you have is a model of heterosexual marriage that is grounded in and almost entirely sustained on individual preference. This is a historically peculiar state of affairs, one that would be alien to our ancestors and to most traditional cultures today. And it makes the push for gay marriage inevitable.

If agreement between two people were all that was required, of course, gays and lesbians would have been marrying for some time already. According to the 2000 census, the first to collect such data, there are five hundred and ninety-four thousand same-sex couples living in the United States (and that’s no doubt an undercount, given people’s reluctance to report their sexual orientation to the government). But marriage requires the consent of a third party—namely, the state.

This fact, too, can be traced to the same early Protestants who gave us companionate marriage. As the journalist E. J. Graff tells us, in her newly reissued popular history “What Is Marriage For?” (Beacon; $16), at the time Luther nailed his proclamations to the door, Rome had no requirement that a priest be present at the wedding ceremony; vows spoken in private were sufficient to create a binding marriage. That caused the aristocracy no end of trouble, given that disobedient children were liable to threaten carefully negotiated contracts by running into the closet with a servant and whispering sweet promises. For the northern European Protestants, the solution was to require, for the first time, a public ceremony with the presence of witnesses. They also transferred the power to enforce the new rules to the emerging secular states. In England, precaution had long taken the form of “banns”: a couple’s intention to wed was proclaimed in church on three successive Sundays, thus giving a community plenty of time to determine whether either party was committed elsewhere. The state-issued marriage licenses we employ today originated in magistrates’ offices and enabled well-to-do families to avoid the banns by attesting to the fitness of the parties in a document.

Informal arrangements nevertheless persisted among those who were less well off, or who lived in less regulated societies. In the early days of the American Republic, with a population scattered across the continent, there were simply too few ministers and justices of the peace to go around. Largely for the practical reason of not wanting to declare so many children bastards, most state courts recognized common-law marriage, established by mutual consent and cohabitation. If you said you were married and the neighbors tended to believe you, then in the eyes of the law you were. (In eleven states, including Texas, this is still the case.) In the decades after the Civil War, however, government bureaucracy, spurred by the moralists and social scientists of the Progressive movement, began to regulate marriage far more aggressively. For the first time, people who sought to wed had to submit to medical examinations, and those with syphilis or gonorrhea were prevented from marrying by criminal statute. By the century’s end, state legislatures had all but mandated that couples obtain a license to marry.

These government-sponsored contracts are at the center of the fight over same-sex unions. In the modern administrative state, civil marriage condenses within a single document a vast array of legal, financial, and medical rights and benefits. Like citizenship for the immigrant, it is a passport to a more secure world. As the old status of marriage has come to include such a range of contractual benefits, the debates over equality within and access to the institution have intensified.

Owing to the reforms of the past forty years, men and women now enter the married state with more legal parity than ever before. Under the old doctrine of coverture, a man owned not only his wife’s property but her body as well. Today, in nearly every state, men’s and women’s rights and obligations in alimony, child custody, child support, and property division in divorce have been made formally gender-neutral. Arrests and prosecutions for domestic abuse, rare thirty years ago, are now routine. As recently as 1984, a man could not be prosecuted for raping his own wife; today, it’s a crime in all fifty states.

During the same period that the old patriarchal rules were being revised, the Supreme Court struck down a series of laws limiting the right of individuals to marry in the first place. In the most famous case, Loving v. Virginia, a unanimous Court held that anti-miscegenation laws were unconstitutional. “The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men,” Chief Justice Warren wrote in 1967. A decade later, a Wisconsin law preventing people from marrying if they were behind on their child-support payments was overturned as too burdensome to the “basic civil rights of man.” In 1987, the Rehnquist Court deemed the freedom to marry so fundamental that it could not be denied to prison inmates, whose other constitutional rights are routinely abrogated.

Those who opposed extending this right to same-sex couples used to cite the fact that many states outlawed sodomy: how could you sanction the marriage of people who could be arrested for what they did together in the bedroom? Then, last summer, in Lawrence v. Texas, the Court struck down the thirteen remaining sodomy laws in the country, and established a broad constitutional right to sexual privacy. The force and scope of the opinion surprised even its supporters. In a rare gesture, the Court not only overturned Bowers v. Hardwick, a 1986 opinion upholding a Georgia sodomy statute, but in essence apologized for it: “Its continuance as precedent demeans the lives of homosexual persons.” The majority was careful to point out that the decision said nothing about the “formal recognition” of relationships. But opponents of same-sex marriage realized the decision’s importance. As Justice Scalia warned in a caustic dissent, “If moral disapprobation of homosexual conduct is ‘no legitimate state interest’ . . . what justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising ‘the liberty protected by the Constitution’? Surely not the encouragement of procreation, since the sterile and the elderly are allowed to marry.” Five months later, the Massachusetts high court cited Lawrence in its decision.

Social conservatives now fear that, in the absence of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, the Supreme Court will combine its precedents on the fundamental right to marry with the more recent decisions in favor of gay rights to give same-sex couples their own Loving v. Virginia—nationalizing gay marriage through constitutional interpretation. As a doctrinal matter, such fears are well grounded. Few legal scholars would disagree with Justice Scalia that Lawrence has made this outcome far more plausible.

Politically, however, a gay Loving is unlikely in the foreseeable future. The Supreme Court is seldom a force of social innovation. The first state to strike down its anti-miscegenation law was California, in 1948. For nearly two decades thereafter, all through the period of Brown v. Board of Education, the Court avoided the controversy over interracial marriage, exercising its discretion not to hear a case. By the time it decided Loving, fourteen states had followed California’s lead, and only sixteen still maintained a ban. The Court endorsed what had become a majority position, if not in public opinion at least in legislative fact; the same can be said of Lawrence. The modern conservative obsession with what is selectively dubbed judicial activism has much to do with Roe v. Wade, and the fact that it struck down thirty state laws criminalizing abortion. No less an advocate of abortion rights than Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg has suggested that it may have been precipitate not to allow the states to come to a stronger consensus before the Court brought the reform process to an end. In the informal electorate of the states, the vote on full civil marriage for same-sex couples now stands at forty-nine to one. It is difficult to conceive of the Supreme Court recognizing a right to gay marriage under these circumstances.

Meanwhile, interest groups on both sides are lobbying legislators and filing more suits, in an attempt to shape the outcome in one jurisdiction at a time. As a legal matter, these are contests over the expansion of the rights and obligations of marriage. As a political and cultural matter, they are contests over something less easy to codify: the official recognition of love. Here the two most important developments in the history of marriage—secular regulation and the rise of the romantic-companionate ideal—become intertwined. The state is being asked not only to distribute benefits equally but to legitimate gay people’s love and affection for their partners. The gay couples now marrying in Massachusetts want not only the same protections that straight people enjoy but the social status that goes along with the state’s recognition of a romantic relationship.

This is the difference between civil unions and marriage: one is a legal certificate and the other is a public endorsement. Not surprisingly, many Americans who might support the first remain uncomfortable with the second. In “Gay Marriage” (Times Books; $22), the journalist Jonathan Rauch means to persuade such people that same-sex marriage will be good not only for gay people but for marriage in general. Rauch is a conservative—how many books garner blurbs from both George Will and Barney Frank?—and his argument for the benefits to gay people is based largely on the social discipline he thinks it would impose: once gay men and lesbians are allowed to wed, society can begin expecting them to do so, as it does straight people. “The gay rights era will be over and the gay responsibility era will begin,” he writes. This soft coercion is a civilizing force, because “no other institution has the power to turn narcissism into partnership, lust into devotion, strangers into kin.” We shouldn’t expect results too soon, however: “As with the coming of capitalism to the Soviet empire, so with the coming of marriage to gay culture. Freedom and responsibility take time to learn.” With analogies as inviting as this, one wonders whether snuggling gay lovers ought to take a bus tour of Putin’s Russia before heading to the altar. Though clearly a true believer in matrimony, Rauch doesn’t make it sound like much fun.

The real threat to marriage, he says, is the growth of registered cohabitation, from domestic partnerships to civil unions, which increasingly includes unwed heterosexuals. He warns that we are heading to the day when marriage—straight or gay—will become “merely an item on a mix-and-match menu of lifestyle options, a truffle in the candy box.” For Rauch, whose view of marriage is more medicinal than confectionary, letting gays marry will actually help marriage by relieving the pressure to create alternatives.

What’s undeniable is that the battle over same-sex marriage arrives at a time of declining participation in the institution itself. The number of marriages performed each year in the United States (2.3 million) is as low as it has ever been relative to the adult population. As Andrew Hacker has pointed out, nearly half of Americans reach the age of thirty without having married, and almost twelve per cent of women and sixteen per cent of men enter their forties still never having wed—the highest percentages in the nation’s history.

As the numbers wane, though, the fantasy seems to grow more intense. The wedding industry generates at least seventy billion dollars a year in revenue, which is double the earnings of the movie business. Bridal magazines are some of the most profitable on the newsstand. The ersatz courtship of the Bachelor and the Bachelorette has provided some of the highest-rated television programming in recent years. At the same time, the pressures on the partnership that follows the wedding day are enormous: in an era of low civic participation and high economic insecurity, spouses are ever more relied upon as the sole providers of continuity and human solace. A state-sponsored, lifelong, intimate relationship—or the prospect of it—now carries a heavy and often unbearable responsibility for personal happiness.

What effect will allowing men to marry men and women to marry women have on our peculiarly modern venture of marriage? Proponents typically say that it will have hardly any—that there is no shortage of marriage licenses, and all that will happen is that more citizens and their children will have the benefits of existing family law. The opposition argues that one of the organizing institutions of our society will be imperilled.

History suggests that neither view is quite accurate. Despite comparisons to the repeal of miscegenation laws, no other expansion of the marriage franchise—to the sterile, to slaves, or to interracial couples—has required an alteration in the basic definition of the term: the union of a man and woman as husband and wife. To discount this as mere semantics misses what the definition points up: that marriage, through all its incarnations, has been a procedure that assigns people a new identity based on their gender. For centuries, it has been the ceremony that makes males into husbands and females into wives. Until very recently, this meant a lifetime commitment to both the security and the constriction of a well-defined social role. The symbolic danger that gay marriage poses to such an arrangement is obvious. It alters the public meaning of the word by further draining it of its power to reinforce traditional expectations of behavior. What does it mean to be a husband in a world where a man could have one of his own? This is up to each individual couple, one is tempted to say. Fair enough; but the words we use to describe our relationships are shared cultural property. There is no private language. In this sense, granting the word “marriage” to gay couples will eventually affect everyone.

The mistake is to consider the change in meaning particularly drastic. After all, undoing customary expectations for how a husband and wife behave toward each other has been one of the goals of the women’s movement since its inception. Rather than an abrupt departure, same-sex marriage is the culmination of a larger and ultimately more consequential change in the nature of marital relations between men and women.

Which is one of the reasons that the opposition to it is so fierce. It has come to symbolize what is, historically speaking, radical about contemporary marriage: the decline of the patriarchal legal structure and the rise of the goal of self-fulfillment. Gay marriage is unsettling, to many, not because it departs from modern meanings of matrimony but because it embodies them. ♦
I actually read all that.
Interesting, it gives some background and perspective on the history of marraige.
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