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  #41  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:05 PM
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If there's any ambiguity related to the federal government's language requirements of its staff, it's more often than not in the buzz on the perceived likelihood that unilingual anglophones will be able "get out" of the said requirements.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:11 PM
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What is being said here is that if you are not passably bilingual, you should move out of Ottawa.

I will say this about myself. I grew up in a time when there was no French immersion and francophone children went to other schools. As a result, there was a degree of segregation (and this still exists). How was I to learn French? Watch the one available French TV station?

I had few choices in my younger years. I needed to get an education and get a job. I needed to focus on my talents and my interests if I was to get a job I was interested in. When I came of age, the rules in the public service suddenly changed and I was locked out. My brother was in the same situation but got a federal job just before the language rules changed. He had a career there and was obligated to take French language training and returned to his job and then did not use the language. It was a waste.

We do not need all of this at the municipal level. What we need is practical French language services. We do not need the right to work in French. We can throw around statistics about the metro population but Ottawa-Gatineau is a segregated city, with most francophones living in Gatineau. The anglophone majority in Ottawa is much higher than 2/3 and we also need to respect that reality. The majority should have the right to work for the city and actually have a career working for the city.

I think much progress has been made on French language education, and we should always work on improving it. The results will be imperfect. Ottawa is a transient city. There will always be unilingual anglophones coming in from other parts of the country and other countries. We cannot and should not create a situation where people feel excluded in Ottawa or to create a situation where outside talent is not considered desirable. Ottawa cannot become part of the Quebec reality that has this invisible barrier around it.

Yes, there is substantial local French population, and there is much merit in having a second language. But the language communities will always have a degree of segregation. Language is a big barrier, and language will always dominate in every organization. Out of necessity, sports clubs, service organizations, churches, schools etc. will almost always work with a single working language. If you are anglophone and your French language skills are limited, it is a challenge to move across the language barrier if you are volunteering. It can be done, but it is difficult and you may not be particularly welcome in a French language organization if your language skills are not that good. There is a natural pressure to switch to English. The key here is gain your skills early when it is part of your education and there is pressure to conform. Later, those barriers are stronger, opportunities fewer and there is natural inclination to switch to English to simply get on with it.

Even though we are in a bilingual city, the English influence to the anglophone majority is overwhelming and for the same reason, most francophones become bilingual. It is not so easy, the other way.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:23 PM
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What is being said here is that if you are not passably bilingual, you should move out of Ottawa.
.
No one has suggested that - this is 2+2=6.

Under the unlikely scenario that the municipal administration had more stringent bilingual requirements for positions, even if the City mirrored the feds' policies there would still be thousands of jobs designated English only. (The federal public service has tons of English only jobs, in addition to tons of bilingual jobs of course, and almost no French only jobs.)

Add to this the entire institutional sector in Ottawa which is very predominantly English only, and the private sector which is very English only as well (surprisingly so, to some people at least).

Thou doth protest too much.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:24 PM
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If there's any ambiguity related to the federal government's language requirements of its staff, it's more often than not in the buzz on the perceived likelihood that unilingual anglophones will be able "get out" of the said requirements.
That certainly happens, but resentment at needing to meet the requirement and fear of not being able to meet the requirement would be far more common, in my experience. Less frequent, but not uncommon, is the frustration/anger of those finding themselves struggling to meet the requirement. In the vast majority of cases where language training is required, it is taken and the requirement is met.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:27 PM
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No one has suggested that - this is 2+2=6.

Under the unlikely scenario that the municipal administration had more stringent bilingual requirements for positions, even if the City mirrored the feds' policies there would still be thousands of jobs designated English only. (The federal public service has tons of English only jobs, in addition to tons of bilingual jobs of course, and almost no French only jobs.)

Add to this the entire institutional sector in Ottawa which is very predominantly English only, and the private sector which is very English only as well (surprisingly so, to some people at least).

Thou doth protest too much.
I was going to say the same thing - nobody could accurately say that wrt federal Ottawa, so why they'd have that reaction to a form of official bilingualism at the municipal government level is out in the realm of fantasy.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post

I will say this about myself. I grew up in a time when there was no French immersion and francophone children went to other schools. As a result, there was a degree of segregation (and this still exists). How was I to learn French? Watch the one available French TV station?

I had few choices in my younger years. I needed to get an education and get a job. I needed to focus on my talents and my interests if I was to get a job I was interested in. When I came of age, the rules in the public service suddenly changed and I was locked out. My brother was in the same situation but got a federal job just before the language rules changed. He had a career there and was obligated to take French language training and returned to his job and then did not use the language. It was a waste.

We do not need all of this at the municipal level. What we need is practical French language services. We do not need the right to work in French. We can throw around statistics about the metro population but Ottawa-Gatineau is a segregated city, with most francophones living in Gatineau. The anglophone majority in Ottawa is much higher than 2/3 and we also need to respect that reality. The majority should have the right to work for the city and actually have a career working for the city.

I think much progress has been made on French language education, and we should always work on improving it. The results will be imperfect. Ottawa is a transient city. There will always be unilingual anglophones coming in from other parts of the country and other countries. We cannot and should not create a situation where people feel excluded in Ottawa or to create a situation where outside talent is not considered desirable. Ottawa cannot become part of the Quebec reality that has this invisible barrier around it.

Yes, there is substantial local French population, and there is much merit in having a second language. But the language communities will always have a degree of segregation. Language is a big barrier, and language will always dominate in every organization. Out of necessity, sports clubs, service organizations, churches, schools etc. will almost always work with a single working language. If you are anglophone and your French language skills are limited, it is a challenge to move across the language barrier if you are volunteering. It can be done, but it is difficult and you may not be particularly welcome in a French language organization if your language skills are not that good. There is a natural pressure to switch to English. The key here is gain your skills early when it is part of your education and there is pressure to conform. Later, those barriers are stronger, opportunities fewer and there is natural inclination to switch to English to simply get on with it.

Even though we are in a bilingual city, the English influence to the anglophone majority is overwhelming and for the same reason, most francophones become bilingual. It is not so easy, the other way.
As I've mentioned before, I'm not entirely convinced of the pressing need for official bilingualism at the city level in Ottawa, and I also question whether the Franco-Ontarian community should have picked this specific hill to die on.

That said, my doubts still don't come with much sympathy for the alleged practical difficulty or impossibility of raising reasonably bilingual generations of young people in Ottawa.

Regardless of what the City of Ottawa does on the bilingualism file, there is simply no excuse... other than excuses, précisément.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:32 PM
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I was going to say the same thing - nobody could accurately say that wrt federal Ottawa, so why they'd have that reaction to a form of official bilingualism at the municipal government level is out in the realm of fantasy.
Though you know as well as I do that the perception out there that for federal government jobs, unlingual anglophones/anglophones in general/people who are not "French" (the wording varies depending on your interlocutor) need not apply, is still very strong.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:52 PM
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Puh-leese. Ottawa abuts a French-speaking city that's one third of its size. One-third of Ottawa's metro is French-speaking. Ottawa is right across the river from a mainly French-speaking province of 8 million people. It's the second-most populated province in the country, with the second-biggest city which happens to be the closest "big city" to Ottawa. French is also an official language of the country and an important job requirement for Ottawa's main employer. A good chunk of Ottawa's population (way more than the 10-15% that are francophone according to the stats) have French Canadian roots even if the language has been lost or lapsed. French is also not some obscure language, it's one of the world's most widely spoken languages. Arguably it's the most widely spoken lingua franca in the world after English.

Those are pretty good motivators in favour of learning French if you're a non-francophone in Ottawa. (The motivators for learning English in many parts of the world are likely less compelling than those for learning French in Ottawa.)

The problem is in people's heads and hearts.
I didn't grow up in Ottawa but tend to agree with this assessment. That said I am sure that Kanata has different dynamics including some who spend some time working in Waterloo or the US and as such their kids might have trouble even with regular stream French clases and as a result feel shut out of the job market already. Downtown and inner suburbs basically everyone puts their kids in French Immersion. I sometimes wonder why we even have an English system (two actually) in these areas.

As long as the government provides language training I don't see how anyone can complain. Even if you are 50 year old getting paid to learn French might be inefficient for the wider tax-payer but is more than fair for the employee. It is this expense that makes me hesitant for the city of Ottawa and the numbers that really need French service must be pretty low in the city of Ottawa unlike many parts of Quebec where this is essential.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 2:58 PM
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Though you know as well as I do that the perception out there that for federal government jobs, unlingual anglophones/anglophones in general/people who are not "French" (the wording varies depending on your interlocutor) need not apply, is still very strong.
And yet tens of thousands of unilingual anglophones work for the federal government. I guess they grow them like mushrooms in ministry basements rather than hiring them!
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  #50  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
If there's any ambiguity related to the federal government's language requirements of its staff, it's more often than not in the buzz on the perceived likelihood that unilingual anglophones will be able "get out" of the said requirements.
There is no alignment between language requirements of jobs and french usage of jobs. It is not uncommon for identical jobs to have completely different language profiles.

Back office administrative jobs are almost always bilingual, whether they need to be or not.

It doesn't really matter anyway, because the French tests to do not measure functional bilingualism anyway. The "writing" test measures ability to catch typos in French which has no bearing on one's ability to write in French. The oral test tests a pre-determined situation, which has no bearing on one's general ability to function in French.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 3:07 PM
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I didn't grow up in Ottawa but tend to agree with this assessment. That said I am sure that Kanata has different dynamics including some who spend some time working in Waterloo or the US and as such their kids might have trouble even with regular stream French clases and as a result feel shut out of the job market already. Downtown and inner suburbs basically everyone puts their kids in French Immersion. I sometimes wonder why we even have an English system (two actually) in these areas.

As long as the government provides language training I don't see how anyone can complain. Even if you are 50 year old getting paid to learn French might be inefficient for the wider tax-payer but is more than fair for the employee. It is this expense that makes me hesitant for the city of Ottawa and the numbers that really need French service must be pretty low in the city of Ottawa unlike many parts of Quebec where this is essential.
The "problem" arises with bilingual imperative positions for which a certain knowledge of both official languages is a qualification. Some folk find this unfair, although you seldom hear similar complaints about other job requirements.

As to potential expense, istm that this is something that could be addressed by "defined by and for Ottawa" official bilingualism. There is no reason why the designation would necessarily oblige the City to spend more on language training than it does now, unless of course it chose to.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 3:13 PM
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There is no alignment between language requirements of jobs and french usage of jobs. It is not uncommon for identical jobs to have completely different language profiles.

Back office administrative jobs are almost always bilingual, whether they need to be or not.

It doesn't really matter anyway, because the French tests to do not measure functional bilingualism anyway. The "writing" test measures ability to catch typos in French which has no bearing on one's ability to write in French. The oral test tests a pre-determined situation, which has no bearing on one's general ability to function in French.

It is undoubtedly true that the administration of OL in the federal government would benefit from better management. Actually wrt OL as in many other things....
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  #53  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 4:26 PM
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Solution: Make the national capital region, including Gatineau QUEBEC, officially bilingual. I still wouldn't like it, but at least it wouldn't reek of hypocrisy.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 5:30 PM
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Solution: Make the national capital region, including Gatineau QUEBEC, officially bilingual. I still wouldn't like it, but at least it wouldn't reek of hypocrisy.
What Gatineau does is irrelevant. The capital of Canada is only Ottawa. That said Ottawa as a city doesn't have to become bilingual because the country is. It is up to us to decide. I think it is clear that the city is certainly not as bilingual as the federal government. French service is very spotty and to improve this you need to spend more on training and/or hire people who are bilingual. Let's not pretend otherwise.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 5:43 PM
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What Gatineau does is irrelevant. The capital of Canada is only Ottawa. That said Ottawa as a city doesn't have to become bilingual because the country is. It is up to us to decide. I think it is clear that the city is certainly not as bilingual as the federal government. French service is very spotty and to improve this you need to spend more on training and/or hire people who are bilingual. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Although this has no necessary link to a declaration of official bilingualism.
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  #56  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 7:10 PM
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What Gatineau does is irrelevant. The capital of Canada is only Ottawa. That said Ottawa as a city doesn't have to become bilingual because the country is. It is up to us to decide. I think it is clear that the city is certainly not as bilingual as the federal government. French service is very spotty and to improve this you need to spend more on training and/or hire people who are bilingual. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Another thing that I find doesn't pass muster is the idea that an officially bilingual country must have an officially bilingual municipality as its capital.

Though it is true that Brussels in Belgium is officially bilingual and this is applied fairly comprehensively.

Switzerland's capital Bern, though, has almost no services whatsoever in French and Italian, the country's other official languages, and is basically German only.

India is multilingual, but I somehow doubt that a dozen languages have any official status in New Delhi.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 7:43 PM
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I think one of the biggest issues is just language classes in elementary and secondary schools.

I grew up in a small town in Northern Ontario with 1 French high school and 1 English high school. At the French school, we were taught how to read, write and speak English, do research, write essays & poetry, study Shakespeare etc... At the English schools, they barely learned how to say the basics like "Hi, my name is.." "where is the bathroom" etc.. Things that should be learned in a couple of weeks in a "intro to" class.

So in my experience, it's the teaching of French at English elementary and secondary schools that should be improved.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2017, 8:41 PM
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I think one of the biggest issues is just language classes in elementary and secondary schools.

I grew up in a small town in Northern Ontario with 1 French high school and 1 English high school. At the French school, we were taught how to read, write and speak English, do research, write essays & poetry, study Shakespeare etc... At the English schools, they barely learned how to say the basics like "Hi, my name is.." "where is the bathroom" etc.. Things that should be learned in a couple of weeks in a "intro to" class.

So in my experience, it's the teaching of French at English elementary and secondary schools that should be improved.
I don't think you can blame the teaching in this case. I mean as a francophone in Northern Ontario you arrive at school basically a native or near native English speaker wheras your English counterparts exposure to French will only be during this chaotic 40 minutes of instruction.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2017, 1:04 PM
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Another thing that I find doesn't pass muster is the idea that an officially bilingual country must have an officially bilingual municipality as its capital.

Though it is true that Brussels in Belgium is officially bilingual and this is applied fairly comprehensively.

Switzerland's capital Bern, though, has almost no services whatsoever in French and Italian, the country's other official languages, and is basically German only.

India is multilingual, but I somehow doubt that a dozen languages have any official status in New Delhi.
I think that at the level of the central government, Hindi and English are the official languages. They dominate in New Delhi, although I don't think there are any restrictions on the use of other languages in the private sphere.
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