Neighborhood Upset Over Downtown Plan

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Update: OWANA is starting to get ready to oppose density bonuses on the east side of Lamar between 6th and 9th (reading between the lines of an email I just saw this morning). 120 feet is apparently too much on the east side of Lamar for my old 'neighbors'.

See, now that's the thing. That area is without a doubt inside downtown. I don't see how anyone, and I mean anyone can say otherwise. There isn't a single-family residence around there for many blocks in all directions. And it's not an issue of those properties bordering the lake.

I don't buy it that they're opposing height either. That's just a ruse. It's plain and simply anti-density, and to oppose density in downtown is lunacy. Plant a privacy shrub if you don't like the view, or move away from downtown. Opposing density and height in downtown is so incredibly stupid.

[Saddle Man]

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[Lady Jaye]

My cousin lives on Rainey Street, and they are surrounded by high rise condos!! Guess it's only a problem when the affluent are involved, I saw one complaining when their street got butchered!!

[Austinite]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

See, now that's the thing. That area is without a doubt inside downtown. I don't see how anyone, and I mean anyone can say otherwise. There isn't a single-family residence around there for many blocks in all directions. And it's not an issue of those properties bordering the lake.

I don't buy it that they're opposing height either. That's just a ruse. It's plain and simply anti-density, and to oppose density in downtown is lunacy. Plant a privacy shrub if you don't like the view, or move away from downtown. Opposing density and height in downtown is so incredibly stupid.

A lot of people don't think Lamar is downtown. I mean that not in the sense that my grandparents still say "out in Tarrytown," but in the sense that downtown has been considered East to West, Water to 15th, for generations. I'm sure there are many people who think that downtown is much larger than that and that's fine. I just want to note that it's not lunacy to think that it's not downtown.

Similarly, it's not lunacy to oppose height restrictions on Lamar. Thousands of people live within a 5 minute drive of their offices downtown, but their neighborhoods are as quiet and safe as anything in Leander. One of the reasons for the peace and safety are the 10 or 20 blocks of lawyers' offices, mostly-quiet restaurants (e.g. Shoal Creek and the Tavern) and retail (e.g. Whole Earth and Whole Foods) separating them from the problems of downtown (e.g., the guys who always seem to be waiting for a bus at 6th and Congress and the drunk 27 year olds at 6th and Rio Grande). Tall buildings on Lamar would be nice in some ways (e.g., more retail and restaurants would be welcome) but bad in others (even more traffic, drunks, and--yeah--criminals). I suppose it's selfish for some people in Clarksville, Old Enfield, and Tarrytown to oppose highrises on Lamar, but it's not lunacy.

[KevinFromTexas]

I think crime and traffic would happen there even without high rises. And I think it would be even more likely to happen without density since it would bring in more people and "legal" activity. There are areas of downtown that are safe and inviting now, but a few years ago were off limits to anyone who wasn't about to do something illegal. The same is true for other areas of town, even way down South Congress. Density, activity and vibrancy tends to force out and discourage crime and "scary people". And that's exactly what has happened in areas of downtown and other parts of the city. Heck, even big bad East Austin is mostly tame now days thanks to the infusion of more development and investment there.

[JAM]

I was just thinking along your lines of thought yesterday. We definitely don't want Austin to become what Houston was. Now Houston is struggling to get people back downtown and its not easy. But if the high rise is residential, then it should bring people with money and good businesses like you mention and should make the area more desirable. The area in question concerning this thread has a Jack in the Box on it (among other stuff), not a particularly pretty sight. Not that I have anything against Jack in the Box, but it does have a trash container on a dirty parking lot and a line of traffic circling the building most of the time. People shouldn't come out screaming no tall buildings just for the sake of it without considering alternatives.

Kevin - We must have posted simultaneously, just for the record, I was referring to Austinites post.

[KevinFromTexas]

Remember how bad South Congress's reputation was? It used to be notorious for drugs and prostitution. Anyone familiar with The Great Outdoors plant nursery on South Congress? My dad's friend used to live in the house where they have their offices. She owned the property back in the mid 90s. Back then it was common to see prostitutes up and down South Congress. I remember once we went over to visit our friend and right outside her driveway on South Congress were a couple of prostitutes. The area was notorious for drug activity also. Now days that area has turned around quite a bit with new businesses moving in and new residential buildings in the area. I ride my bike through there at midnight now and am never bothered.

[Austinite]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

Remember how bad South Congress's reputation was? It used to be notorious for drugs and prostitution. Anyone familiar with The Great Outdoors plant nursery on South Congress? My dad's friend used to live in the house where they have their offices. She owned the property back in the mid 90s. Back then it was common to see prostitutes up and down South Congress. I remember once we went over to visit our friend and right outside her driveway on South Congress were a couple of prostitutes. The area was notorious for drug activity also. Now days that area has turned around quite a bit with new businesses moving in and new residential buildings in the area. I ride my bike through there at midnight now and am never bothered.

Attracting business to the east side of Lamar would be great. Just as replacing Capitol Chevrolet with Whole Foods was a good thing for the area (even though I've always liked Capitol), so would replacing the used car lot on the corner of 10th with some nice townhouses and/or a good restaurant. My point wasn't that attracting people and better businesses to the area would be bad; my point was that the people in central-west neighborhoods who are wary of the westward migration of downtown aren't crazy.

[Scottolini]

Whether the east side of Lamar between the river and 15th is downtown or not is not the point. The point is that apparently there are some who feel like 120' is too tall for the side closest to downtown of that short stretch of roadway. I would strongly disagree. This is arguably downtown, but if not is certainly an urban area just barely outside of downtown. It is illogical, if not crazy, to say that a 120 foot building would be out of place in that area. After all Whole Foods is 136 foot tall and Nokonah is 143 foot tall. Do those seem overly tall? I couldn't understand an intelligent, sane person thinking so.

[Scottolini]

These same types were pushing for absurd limits on the south shore of the river around First, Congress, Riverside, and Barton Springs. I think they wanted 60 foot limits anywhere within 1500 feet of the south shore of Lady Bird Lake. These people should move to Kyle. Or even further away...

[KevinFromTexas]

I would be opposed to any height west of Lamar as those are very intact neighborhoods. My godparents live in Clarksville near West 9th 1/2 & West Lynn Streets. That neighborhood is very much intact. But it's funny, most of the homes there sit atop a hill, but even so basically have no view of downtown. The only homes west of Lamar that have a view of downtown are the ones immediately west of Lamar, or ones that have been built in such a way that gain a view with balconies or rooftop decks. Otherwise, those neighborhoods could be anywhere in the city since you'd never guess downtown is just a couple of blocks away. When I was up in Spring in February for the topping out party, I looked towards those neighborhoods to see how much you could "look" into the neighborhood, and you couldn't see much at all thanks to all the trees and close proximity of the homes. Being so close together, the homes pretty much prevent any view into their yards from any neighboring skyscrapers. I say anything that butts up to Lamar on the east side of that street, is downtown. Anything west of it should be off limits to height though. Even along West 5th & West 6th west of Lamar all the way to Mopac should be low to midrise at best. What has been built there now is a good height for that area.

[Austinite]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I would be opposed to any height west of Lamar as those are very intact neighborhoods. My godparents live in Clarksville near West 9th 1/2 & West Lynn Streets. That neighborhood is very much intact. But it's funny, most of the homes there sit atop a hill, but even so basically have no view of downtown. The only homes west of Lamar that have a view of downtown are the ones immediately west of Lamar, or ones that have been built in such a way that gain a view with balconies or rooftop decks. Otherwise, those neighborhoods could be anywhere in the city since you'd never guess downtown is just a couple of blocks away. When I was up in Spring in February for the topping out party, I looked towards those neighborhoods to see how much you could "look" into the neighborhood, and you couldn't see much at all thanks to all the trees and close proximity of the homes. Being so close together, the homes pretty much prevent any view into their yards from any neighboring skyscrapers. I say anything that butts up to Lamar on the east side of that street, is downtown. Anything west of it should be off limits to height though. Even along West 5th & West 6th west of Lamar all the way to Mopac should be low to midrise at best. What has been built there now is a good height for that area.

Kevin, I don't think anyone would be upset about being able to see the buildings. If anything, people would considerate it to be consolation for the otherwise-unwelcome development. What some people would be upset about is the encroachment of downtown development on quiet, residential neighborhoods. As I understand it, the objection isn't to development or even multi-story development; the objection is to buildings so big that they might significantly increase noise, cut-through traffic, and other things that nobody likes. I think the neighborhood is also worried about a slippery slope: Right now, only deranged idealogues and really, really dumb guys think there should be mid-rises on West Lynn or Exposition; but should something like Spring get built on 7-11's block, mid-rises in Clarksville and Tarrytown wouldn't seem quite so absurd. I think that's what this is about: It's not an objection to another Nokonah; it's a negotiating position to keep much bigger things from happening.

[Scottolini]

Originally Posted by KevinFromTexas

I would be opposed to any height west of Lamar as those are very intact neighborhoods. My godparents live in Clarksville near West 9th 1/2 & West Lynn Streets. That neighborhood is very much intact. I say anything that butts up to Lamar on the east side of that street, is downtown. Anything west of it should be off limits to height though. Even along West 5th & West 6th west of Lamar all the way to Mopac should be low to midrise at best. What has been built there now is a good height for that area.

I believe that north of Cesar Chavez, and south of 6th west of Lamar is a fantastic area for redevelopment at some point. That is not a residential area, and is along the Union Pacific rail line that may at some point be utilized for passenger rail. I would not advocate Spring heights, but I believe 150' buildings would be fine in that area. Then again, I don't find buildings to be repulsive, scary, or whatever it is that causes such negative reactions in some.

[Austinite]

Originally Posted by Scottolini

I believe that north of Cesar Chavez, and south of 6th west of Lamar is a fantastic area for redevelopment at some point. That is not a residential area, and is along the Union Pacific rail line that may at some point be utilized for passenger rail. I would not advocate Spring heights, but I believe 150' buildings would be fine in that area. Then again, I don't find buildings to be repulsive, scary, or whatever it is that causes such negative reactions in some.

That's already happening and it's a good thing.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by Austinite

Kevin, I don't think anyone would be upset about being able to see the buildings. If anything, people would considerate it to be consolation for the otherwise-unwelcome development. What some people would be upset about is the encroachment of downtown development on quiet, residential neighborhoods. As I understand it, the objection isn't to development or even multi-story development; the objection is to buildings so big that they might significantly increase noise, cut-through traffic, and other things that nobody likes. I think the neighborhood is also worried about a slippery slope: Right now, only deranged idealogues and really, really dumb guys think there should be mid-rises on West Lynn or Exposition; but should something like Spring get built on 7-11's block, mid-rises in Clarksville and Tarrytown wouldn't seem quite so absurd. I think that's what this is about: It's not an objection to another Nokonah; it's a negotiating position to keep much bigger things from happening.

I really doubt that anything of major height will be built west of Lamar. I think the concerns of what might get built west of Lamar is mostly just uninformed and flat out scared people worrying about what might get built. I just don't think anything of major height would be built west of Lamar. As long as it's east of Lamar, it should be fine. And I don't see how buildings cause noise. Most of the people in these buildings will walk anyway if things are close by, and our West End does have some handy businesses that are within walking distance from buildings like Spring and The Nokonah.

If any neighborhood has lost the battle for existing noise levels near downtown, it's the Rainey Street area, but it doesn't have a thing to do with high rises. I just came back from downtown (rode my bicycle 10 miles) and rode down Rainey Street and over to the Mexican-American Cultural Center. It was noisy there, but it was because of I-35 which is just a few blocks away. Now that neighborhood already doesn't feel like an intact neighborhood, and not necessarily because of the high rises right inside it's boundary lines, but because of it's close proximity to downtown which is very visible, and the noise and nearby views of I-35.