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  #101  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 12:18 AM
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dleung dleung is offline
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
Remember that at one point, people from the North Shore travelling to Vancouver was seen as a local issue, not worthy of government expense, and a private toll bridge was built...
That sensible paradigm was from before big oil conspired to ensure market dependence on gasoline by lobbying government to take on those responsibilities, thereby subsidizing sprawl and private automobile use, and resulting the hideous built form we see today all over North America.

Last edited by dleung; Nov 8, 2016 at 12:35 AM.
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  #102  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by dleung View Post
That sensible paradigm was from before big oil conspired to ensure market dependence on gasoline by lobbying government to take on those responsibilities, thereby subsidizing sprawl and private automobile use, and resulting the hideous built form we see today all over North America.
Muahahaha

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  #103  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 2:36 AM
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Tin foil hats?

No where in the world ever built bridges to open up new areas beside existing communities before big scary oil came along...
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  #104  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 4:49 AM
Bdawe Bdawe is offline
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Well, we were on the subject of a bridge built by private investors rather than public coffers, it's a simplified argument, but yes, in the 1920s and 1930s the oil and auto industries mounted a sustained public relations campaign to convince the public of the virtue of building toll-free controlled access roads, improved and paved streets and roadways.

That's not to say that the public did not do these things ever - the New Westminster Bridge, originally a road & rail structure, was built by the Federal Government, but was for the purposes of furthering trade, and the bridge was tolled to recover costs, and was not built with mass car commuting in mind, but they were much rarer, and much more infrastructure was furnished by private enterprise.
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  #105  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Bdawe View Post
Well, we were on the subject of a bridge built by private investors rather than public coffers, it's a simplified argument, but yes, in the 1920s and 1930s the oil and auto industries mounted a sustained public relations campaign to convince the public of the virtue of building toll-free controlled access roads, improved and paved streets and roadways.

That's not to say that the public did not do these things ever - the New Westminster Bridge, originally a road & rail structure, was built by the Federal Government, but was for the purposes of furthering trade, and the bridge was tolled to recover costs, and was not built with mass car commuting in mind, but they were much rarer, and much more infrastructure was furnished by private enterprise.
The Sunshine Coast fixed link is being built to open up the region and its deep water ports to economic growth. As it is the 150km's of gently sloping coastline with two deep water ports is economically choked off even though it is within a stones throw away from downtown Vancouver.

If you think people will be commuting over a tolled bridge for 60 min (assuming their living right in Langdale, move to Sechelt and add another 20-30 min) just to get to the Lions Gate bridge then I would have to say that is crazy talk.

What will however happen is that the passenger ferry between Gibson's and Downtown Vancouver will become even more viable and handle even more passengers that it will feed straight into the mainlands transit system.

Without a reliable fast 24/7/365 connection the region will continue to be economically stagnant, lower Sunshine Coast will remain stagnant, and Powell River will continue its sad decline. The entire region will continue to be subsidized by the rest of the province today, tomorrow and ever day after, and the deep water port will remain unused.

Think of the fixed link as the railway to the coast. It will be built to open up the region to economic activity and benefit the province for generations to come. Not for the people currently living there (who will still benefit) and certainly not to make the area a bedroom community (considering that will be impossible unless you utilize the passenger ferry from Gibsons, and even then a 45 min (with a old slow inefficient ship today) crossing is no fun).
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  #106  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:55 AM
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When you put it that way, a connection makes sense. Still, the principle of the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way.

$2-3 billion for slightly wider highways? Absolutely.
$4 billion to replace a tunnel? Go for it.
$3 billion for a connection to a few resort towns? Write the check.
$2 billion on a subway extension that will have as much revenue and usage as all of them combined? Uh... maybe we should have a vote.

They're all pretty necessary, yes, but Victoria seems to be going out of its way to avoid funding anything related to Metro Vancouver. They don't even have "fiscal responsibility" as an excuse like they do in the States...
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  #107  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
When you put it that way, a connection makes sense. Still, the principle of the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way.

$2-3 billion for slightly wider highways? Absolutely.
$4 billion to replace a tunnel? Go for it.
$3 billion for a connection to a few resort towns? Write the check.
$2 billion on a subway extension that will have as much revenue and usage as all of them combined? Uh... maybe we should have a vote.

They're all pretty necessary, yes, but Victoria seems to be going out of its way to avoid funding anything related to Metro Vancouver. They don't even have "fiscal responsibility" as an excuse like they do in the States...

May 9th can't get here fast enough...
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  #108  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:50 AM
WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is offline
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I think the bigger issue is the fact we live in a Province with $237 billion GDP per year and we gripe over $3 billion (1.26%) in infrastructure spending spread over 25 years. That's kind of like someone making $237,000 per year losing sleep over buying a $3,000 house.
That is a horribly flawed example bordering on stupidity, unless you are trying to pull the wool over SSPers' eyes.

GDP is not revenue.

Last year the government took in $48B of revenue. The Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure has a budget of under $1B. Of course that is operating expenses and not capital costs.

Furthermore, the province is in debt to the tune of $43B (taxpayer supported) to further increase to $45B in 2019 due to the range of capital projects underway.

Total debt including that of BC Hydro will be close to $72B in 2019.

To use your example more clearly, you make $48k/year, you're in debt $72k, and you're thinking about spending $2-$3k on a depreciating asset of questionable ROI.
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  #109  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 7:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
When you put it that way, a connection makes sense. Still, the principle of the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way.

$2-3 billion for slightly wider highways? Absolutely.
$4 billion to replace a tunnel? Go for it.
$3 billion for a connection to a few resort towns? Write the check.
$2 billion on a subway extension that will have as much revenue and usage as all of them combined? Uh... maybe we should have a vote.

They're all pretty necessary, yes, but Victoria seems to be going out of its way to avoid funding anything related to Metro Vancouver. They don't even have "fiscal responsibility" as an excuse like they do in the States...
While what you say is true and I definitely agree the Broadway extension should have been built a long time ago, I have to disagree with your reasoning. This connection and other projects like the George Massey bridge are meant to be payed with through tolls, paying for itself within a period of time. The Broadway Extension would/will not pay for itself, in fact it will be revenue negative, so they're two very different scenarios.

I think as long as they can estimate it can be paid for with a toll that is less than a ferry ticket, then there is no reason it shouldn't be built as it would be faster and cheaper, with more reliability and bring numerous economic benefits as outlined above and would be cost neutral for the province.
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  #110  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 7:49 AM
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A fixed link to the Sunshine coast is another one of those pipe-dreams right up there with commuter rail south of the Fraser, and my favourite... The BNSF railway moving from the White Rock beach. They can talk about, argue about it, form committees, and throw good money at all sorts of studies but in the end none of these will ever happen in our lifetimes, if ever. However, it makes for interesting conversation on forums like this...
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  #111  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 8:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Anorak View Post
While what you say is true and I definitely agree the Broadway extension should have been built a long time ago, I have to disagree with your reasoning. This connection and other projects like the George Massey bridge are meant to be payed with through tolls, paying for itself within a period of time. The Broadway Extension would/will not pay for itself, in fact it will be revenue negative, so they're two very different scenarios.

I think as long as they can estimate it can be paid for with a toll that is less than a ferry ticket, then there is no reason it shouldn't be built as it would be faster and cheaper, with more reliability and bring numerous economic benefits as outlined above and would be cost neutral for the province.
How so? The 99 B-Line is the busiest bus route in Upper North America and gets about 55k riders daily. Estimated ridership for the Broadway extension is 320k daily, almost six times the B-Line and 30k more than our Expo Line (one of the few metro lines in the Western world to operate at a surplus).

It's also four times the existing George Massey traffic, and ten times the total population of the Sunshine Coast. Unless they charge $30 tolls each way and build condos all over Delta and Gibsons, it's probably the Skytrain that'll pay for itself first.
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  #112  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:38 PM
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I agree, in fact, the broadway extension, and associated capacity/frequency upgrades and ridership increases on the M-Line will probably mean that the M-Line as a whole has an operating profit.
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  #113  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:51 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
I agree, in fact, the broadway extension, and associated capacity/frequency upgrades and ridership increases on the M-Line will probably mean that the M-Line as a whole has an operating profit.
I think he meant covering the capital cost. There's no doubt that the M-Line Broadway Extension will operate at a profit, but paying back the capital cost is another thing. Of course, projects like the Port Mann Bridge don't pay their capital costs either.

Looks like it will be 15 years before the PM Bridge even breaks EVEN with operating costs.

Saying all that, I think the Broadway Extension actually has a good chance of paying back its capital costs as well, but we'll see.
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  #114  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:53 PM
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I think if the Broadway line were to be built a long time ago, Broadway would be very densely populated by now, and probably near capacity with the ridership. Very high density condos and office space would have been built along Broadway and a few streets past both north and south. Remember that Vancouver is unique in the sense that skytrain lines are spurring intense residential as well as commercial development, only because of very high demand.

And regarding the bridge to the Sunshine Coast, I rather the government allocate funds every year to save up for an eventual construction of a bridge to Vancouver Island. A road/rail link between Victoria and Vancouver should be a priority over others. Imagine one day we can take a high-speed rail to Victoria and back. That would've been awesome.
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  #115  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 7:28 PM
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.....A road/rail link between Victoria and Vancouver should be a priority over others. Imagine one day we can take a high-speed rail to Victoria and back. That would've been awesome.
... something like Eurostar?
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  #116  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 11:40 PM
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Alex Mackinnon Alex Mackinnon is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
I think if the Broadway line were to be built a long time ago, Broadway would be very densely populated by now, and probably near capacity with the ridership. Very high density condos and office space would have been built along Broadway and a few streets past both north and south. Remember that Vancouver is unique in the sense that skytrain lines are spurring intense residential as well as commercial development, only because of very high demand.

And regarding the bridge to the Sunshine Coast, I rather the government allocate funds every year to save up for an eventual construction of a bridge to Vancouver Island. A road/rail link between Victoria and Vancouver should be a priority over others. Imagine one day we can take a high-speed rail to Victoria and back. That would've been awesome.
That one isn't going to happen mostly due to how technically hard it would be. No BC government is going to start a project that's probably not possible with today's technology.

Part of the arguement for the Sunshine Coast link is that it's the first part of a bridge to Campbell River, which is technically feasible with today's tech.
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  #117  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
When you put it that way, a connection makes sense. Still, the principle of the whole thing still rubs me the wrong way.

$2-3 billion for slightly wider highways? Absolutely.
$4 billion to replace a tunnel? Go for it.
$3 billion for a connection to a few resort towns? Write the check.
$2 billion on a subway extension that will have as much revenue and usage as all of them combined? Uh... maybe we should have a vote.

They're all pretty necessary, yes, but Victoria seems to be going out of its way to avoid funding anything related to Metro Vancouver. They don't even have "fiscal responsibility" as an excuse like they do in the States...
I get what you are saying, but it is pretty obvious that this is just a feasibility study. The earliest I could see even the first phase of such a project moving forward is 15 years out. By then the Broadway subway will be up and running.

I would actually support the first bridge being built now to the Sunshine Coast. That would be well below the 3 billion dollar mark you have referenced (I am guessing well below 1 billion) but it would do wonders for opening up the Sunshine Coast and would even help Powell River. There is a huge difference between taking two ferries and a single ferry to a destination.

Agreed the subway needs to be funded. Sadly, the city of Vancouver has given a huge middle finger to the province many times (the no LNG proposal a recent example) so they have themselves to blame as well.
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  #118  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2016, 1:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
A road/rail link between Victoria and Vancouver should be a priority over others. Imagine one day we can take a high-speed rail to Victoria and back. That would've been awesome.
It would be cool, but Greater Victoria has a population of 350 000. There is no point investing that much money into building infrastructure for a town that size.

The only way I see the island getting it's own bridge/rail is if Victoria gets a population of over a million or Vancouver Island becomes it's own province. That's pretty much why PEI has the confederation bridge. If they were part of New Brunswick that bridge wouldn't be there.
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  #119  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2016, 6:19 PM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
... something like Eurostar?
Yeah, something like that, on a smaller scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
That one isn't going to happen mostly due to how technically hard it would be. No BC government is going to start a project that's probably not possible with today's technology.

Part of the arguement for the Sunshine Coast link is that it's the first part of a bridge to Campbell River, which is technically feasible with today's tech.
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Originally Posted by BobLoblawsLawBlog View Post
It would be cool, but Greater Victoria has a population of 350 000. There is no point investing that much money into building infrastructure for a town that size.

The only way I see the island getting it's own bridge/rail is if Victoria gets a population of over a million or Vancouver Island becomes it's own province. That's pretty much why PEI has the confederation bridge. If they were part of New Brunswick that bridge wouldn't be there.
It's a dream, even if it's only a pipe dream. Sometime in the future, Victoria would reach its one million mark.
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  #120  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2016, 8:16 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Yeah, something like that, on a smaller scale.
Except that it would be on a much, much larger scale. More akin to the Seikan tunnel... with difficult soil, a long approach under land, and taking a LOT longer than expected. They essentially had to dig Seikan by hand. There's a great segment on it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puuZ0OJMXAA

Quote:
It's a dream, even if it's only a pipe dream. Sometime in the future, Victoria would reach its one million mark.
The Nanaimo region will hit 1M sooner than Victoria, which really is who this bridge would serve better.
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