Multiculturalism in Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It is pretty remarkable how recognizable it is considering it belongs to a country that prior to 2014 I often had to describe as "a medium sized country just west of Russia."

I think you're being too hard on the tri-colour though! I grew a lot of appreciation for it after my trip to St. John's. It was everywhere and people seemed to identify with it on a level I only really see in the US. I don't like big brash imperial flags and so the tri-colour is great. Peaceful but meaningful. Not to mention unique. I know lots of flags are striped, but how many have pink!?

I've never really thought about the Ukrainian flag in the way you mentioned either though. Love the peace and simplicity of the wheat and sky, just never gave it much thought before.

I'd never heard of the Newfoundland tricolour before SSP Canada. Sorry SHH but I knew the Labrador flag before I knew the tricolour.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OutOfTowner

You should watch more American TV Acajack. That way, you'll be more familiar with all of "our" issues.

Yeah, look at everything I am missing out on. Like being able to quote Black Lives Matter and All Lives Matter people chapter and verse.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'd never heard of the Newfoundland tricolour before SSP Canada. Sorry SHH but I knew the Labrador flag before I knew the tricolour.

I didn't know either, only the official Newfoundland & Labrador flag they teach in school. Signalhillhiker also introduced me to it, but when I finally visited St. John's, I finally "got it."

[SpongeG]

I am in that age group where the USSR existed while growing up, so any of the countries that were part of it are completely lost on me plus so many have been broken up into different ones or don't even exist anymore. like does Yugoslavia still exist?

Its kinda weird or hard to explain perhaps but what you learned in school growing up is kinda how you still see the world. It's not an unwillingness to change but more of a just not something you unlearn I guess. Russia to me will always be the place where they lined up for bread. China will always be Tiananmen Square. When I was a kid people would say "eat all that food on your plate there are kids starving in china". Then, later on it was kids are starving in Africa. Now I don't think people say things like that anymore.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan

I really think you'd have much different reactions if you were in the prairies. The idea that somebody wouldn't know what/where Ukraine is, is baffling. It'd be like not having heard of Italy or Ireland.

As expected, Ukraine is very much off the radar here in Quebec.

Seen by many as a kinda Russian, kinda not Russian place.

Some people might see it as one of a number of peoples struggling to maintain their identity in the face of a huge dominant neighbour.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Really? I was born there and I can't even really think of any iconic food we have Everyone knows perogies, but I think most associate that with Russia. Borscht is also pretty well known, but again, associated with Russia. Ditto with cabbage rolls. I can't really think of anything that is recognized as being distinctly Ukrainian.



No, I wouldn't expect them to speak it nor to be ignorant of it. My impression of Ukrainian culture in the Prairies is that of the French in Louisiana: Everyone knows it was an important part of their history, but it's passed and now largely non-influential on day to day life.

most people i know associate perogies and borscht with ukrainians. I grew up in NE BC which is farmer/prairie country so there were lots of ukranians. Also back then and in small towns, we had loads of potluck dinners and international dinner nights so we got exposed to many foods.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I am in that age group where the USSR existed while growing up, so any of the countries that were part of it are completely lost on me plus so many have been broken up into different ones or don't even exist anymore. like is Yugoslavia still exist?

Its kinda weird or hard to explain perhaps but what you learned in school growing up is kinda how you still see the world. It's not an unwillingness to change but more of a just not something you unlearn I guess. Russia to me will always be the place where they lined up for bread. China will always be Tiananmen Square. When I was a kid people would say eat that all food on your plate there are kids starving in china. Then, later on it was kids are starving in Africa. Now I don't think people say things like that anymore.

I know what you're saying. Once you leave school, you don't really give these sorts of things much thought. We're all too preoccupied with work, and I guess kids for some of you and things like that. So it's easy to maintain an image of places from when you actually did think of them. It's not hard to unlearn though, you just have to always keep learning.

For example, as you said, I always thought all of Africa looked like those commercials. It wasn't until I got into rugby that I realised South Africa existed and was quite developed. China to me used to be where absolutely everything was made. It's also easier now with the internet. Don't have to take school at its word.

And no, Yugoslavia isn't a state anymore.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As expected, Ukraine is very much off the radar here in Quebec.

Seen by many as a kinda Russian, kinda not Russian place.

Some people might see it as one of a number of peoples struggling to maintain their identity in the face of a huge dominant neighbour.

It doesn't help that a significant portion of the people want to fully embrace the identity of its huge dominant neighbour.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It doesn't help that a significant portion of the people want to fully embrace the identity of its huge dominant neighbour.

That's what decades and decades of colonization or domination will do to you.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As expected, Ukraine is very much off the radar here in Quebec.

Seen by many as a kinda Russian, kinda not Russian place.

Some people might see it as one of a number of peoples struggling to maintain their identity in the face of a huge dominant neighbour.

By your description, they've heard of it.

[lio45]

For the record, the only times in my life I've heard of "perogies" is on SSP Canada, and from these posts I've managed to gather that it's some form of food, and that it's Eastern European (and at least Ukrainian, but I have no idea if they have exclusivity over it or if their neighbors have nearly identical food they call theirs).

[dleung]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That is total bullshit. Prove it.

The bolded is your post, right?

You brought up the apparent double standard, now it's "not the dominant discourse" lol.

Also not sure what is this All Lives Matter group you keep trying to disassociate from. There's only the non-caps statement, which has no more meaning than any other platitude (ie "humans need food") other than its use against BLM.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is why only homophobes wonder "where's the straight pride parade?", and why only racists say "all lives matter", or other stupid statements that assume the falsehood that everyone is on equal footing

[BretttheRiderFan]

My folks were raised in Polish and Ukrainian households in rural Saskatchewan, so perogies to me are about as ingrained in the food culture as a burger or hot dog. They also must be served with sour cream. That detail is non-negotiable. Bacon bits and onions are popular additions.

From wiki:

"Pierogi (pronounced /pɪˈroʊgi/ pi-roh-ghee[1]), also known as varenyky, are filled dumplings of Eastern European origin.[2][3] They are made by wrapping pockets of unleavened dough around a savory or sweet filling and cooking them in boiling water. These dumplings are popular in Slavic (Polish, Slovak, Ukrainian, Russian), Baltic (Latvian, Lithuanian) and other Eastern European cuisines (such as Romanian), where they are known under local names. Pierogi are especially associated with Poland, Ukraine, and Slovakia, where they are considered national dishes.[4][5][6][7]

Pierogi are often semicircular, but triangular and rectangular ones are also found. Typical fillings include potato, sauerkraut, ground meat, cheese, and fruits. The dumplings may be served with a topping, such as melted butter, sour cream, or fried onion, or combinations of those ingredients"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierogi

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As expected, Ukraine is very much off the radar here in Quebec.

Seen by many as a kinda Russian, kinda not Russian place.

Some people might see it as one of a number of peoples struggling to maintain their identity in the face of a huge dominant neighbour.

Speak for yourself, suburban Outaouais guy! I have a Russian-owned apartment building in my hood - Dmitri, owner - and it is home to many Russians and former Russians. Yuri, who has become a great friend of mine, is Dmitri's 'representative' when it comes to rent etc. Yuri is Ukranian (though veers pro Russia) and used to be a film director of some note back in the Soviet days. We regulary discuss the pros and cons of democracy/communism whilst downing shots of bootleg Cuban rum. He's an invaluable source of tips on photo taking (my god he knows photography!) and is generally acknowledged, in our little zone, as being "The World's Most Interesting Man".

Don't make sweeping generalizations!

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by dleung

The bolded is your post, right?

You brought up the apparent double standard, now it's "not the dominant discourse" lol.

Also not sure what is this All Lives Matter group you keep trying to disassociate from. There's only the non-caps statement, which has no more meaning than any other platitude (ie "humans need food") other than its use against BLM.

The reason I brought it up in the first place is why only homophobes wonder "where's the straight pride parade?", and why only racists say "all lives matter", or other stupid statements that assume the falsehood that everyone is on equal footing

Oh Dleung, you're such an asshole!

Perhaps you should get layed sometime? Even if you have to pay for it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

I am in that age group where the USSR existed while growing up, so any of the countries that were part of it are completely lost on me plus so many have been broken up into different ones or don't even exist anymore. like does Yugoslavia still exist?

I was born in 1993 so I did my elementary school education from 1997 to 2007. Surprisingly, in my school library we actually had plenty of outdated atlases from the 1970s and 1980s that still had the USSR & the old Eastern Europe in it. I remember looking at maps in the eighth grade--so in 2006 or 2007--getting confused about whether or not Czechoslovakia was a country or not, because some maps in my school had it, others didn't. That was a full 13 years after Czechoslovakia ceased to be a country.

Maybe my school was just really bad at updating resource materials but if my story is anything close to typical there'd actually be a lot of younger people who grew up well after the Fall of Communism who have an outdated map of Eastern Europe in their heads.

As an adult I'm fairly worldly so I keep track of these things but I can see it getting very confusing, especially as Eastern Europe's map didn't stop shifting in 1991. Yugoslavia's breakup didn't complete until 2008, and then just last year, the Czech Republic requested that its actual country name, Czechia, start being used in English. In the Czech language it's always been known as Czechia (Česko) and comparable terms are common in other European languages (ie. Tschechien in German, Tchéquie in French). This bizarre happening stems from the fact that the English language never actually had a word for the Czech homeland; historically we've called it "Bohemia" but that term is technically incorrect as it only refers to part of the country (much like how "Holland" is only one small part of the Netherlands), so when the country became independent in 1993 English language media called it by its full long form name, "Czech Republic" and that caught on throughout the anglosphere.

[OutOfTowner]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I was born in 1993 so I did my elementary school education from 1997 to 2007. Surprisingly, in my school library we actually had plenty of outdated atlases from the 1970s and 1980s that still had the USSR & the old Eastern Europe in it. I remember looking at maps in the eighth grade--so in 2006 or 2007--getting confused about whether or not Czechoslovakia was a country or not, because some maps in my school had it, others didn't. That was a full 13 years after Czechoslovakia ceased to be a country.

Maybe my school was just really bad at updating resource materials but if my story is anything close to typical there'd actually be a lot of younger people who grew up well after the Fall of Communism who have an outdated map of Eastern Europe in their heads.

As an adult I'm fairly worldly so I keep track of these things but I can see it getting very confusing, especially as Eastern Europe's map didn't stop shifting in 1991. Yugoslavia's breakup didn't complete until 2008, and then just last year, the Czech Republic requested that its actual country name, Czechia, start being used in English. In the Czech language it's always been known as Czechia (Česko) and comparable terms are common in other European languages (ie. Tschechien in German, Tchéquie in French). This bizarre happening stems from the fact that the English language never actually had a word for the Czech homeland; historically we've called it "Bohemia" but that term is technically incorrect as it only refers to part of the country (much like how "Holland" is only one small part of the Netherlands), so when the country became independent in 1993 English language media called it by its full long form name, "Czech Republic" and that caught on throughout the anglosphere.

Nice of you to help him out! Dood obviously lacks access to the internet.

Or he's just using it wrong.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As expected, Ukraine is very much off the radar here in Quebec.

Seen by many as a kinda Russian, kinda not Russian place.

Some people might see it as one of a number of peoples struggling to maintain their identity in the face of a huge dominant neighbour.

For people in the West during the Cold War era, the common thought was that "USSR = Russia", even though the USSR was a multinational federation of which Russia was just one of fifteen units. Sure, Russia was the largest, but it only made up about 50% of the population. Demographically, Russia's dominance in the USSR wasn't much greater than Ontario's dominance within Canada.

Many people in Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia will actually be quite offended if you think of their countries as being "Russian". Their break from the USSR was by far the most "clean", in the sense that they want absolutely nothing to do with any of their former federal partners. It's all about the European Union for them, no questions about it. The popular opinion in all three now is that the Soviets were an illegal occupier and that all the ethnic Russians who moved there in the Cold War era are akin to West Bank settlers. In keeping with this view, Latvia and Estonia actually deny citizenship to ethnic Russians (even those who were born there), on the grounds that they and their parents/grandparents never had a legal right to live there in the first place. In both countries this is something like 20% of the population, denied all democratic rights and rendered legally stateless.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by lio45

For the record, the only times in my life I've heard of "perogies" is on SSP Canada, and from these posts I've managed to gather that it's some form of food, and that it's Eastern European (and at least Ukrainian, but I have no idea if they have exclusivity over it or if their neighbors have nearly identical food they call theirs).

I'm surprised you've never encountered perogies outside of here. I'll be the first to admit that Eastern European food isn't exactly in the mainstream here, but perogies should at least have some recognition. You can find them in any frozen food aisle.

Also, forgot to ask you in another thread. Why did you think the Big Mac Bacon outside of Quebec would have ham? Just curious.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For people in the West during the Cold War era, the common thought was that "USSR = Russia", even though the USSR was a multinational federation of which Russia was just one of fifteen units. Sure, Russia was the largest, but it only made up about 50% of the population. Demographically, Russia's dominance in the USSR wasn't much greater than Ontario's dominance within Canada.

Many people in Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia will actually be quite offended if you think of their countries as being "Russian". Their break from the USSR was by far the most "clean", in the sense that they want absolutely nothing to do with any of their former federal partners. It's all about the European Union for them, no questions about it. The popular opinion in all three now is that the Soviets were an illegal occupier and that all the ethnic Russians who moved there in the Cold War era are akin to West Bank settlers. In keeping with this view, Latvia and Estonia actually deny citizenship to ethnic Russians (even those who were born there), on the grounds that they and their parents/grandparents never had a legal right to live there in the first place. In both countries this is something like 20% of the population, denied all democratic rights and rendered legally stateless.

Just to make it clear the opinions of the "regular people" on the ground for the most part differ greatly from those of their politicians and leaders. For 25 years there has been a very concerted effort in eastern Europe to ensure its people align westward and every trick in the book has been used. Its a very complicated subject and not something really anyone from eastern Europe (regardless of country) will ever discuss openly/honestly with any outsider, in fact most people will be insulted if you want to discuss their politics/history with them and at best will tell you what you want to hear or at worse tell you to f off. I just want to make it clear that what happens in the public, and what you hear here in the west, is not representative of the opinions and attitudes of the people from those parts who have a actual history and past that is not as black and white.