HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #161  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2019, 3:12 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 2,431
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPLS_Const_Watch View Post
I know I'm jumping into this pretty late...

In my opinion, Detroit and Minneapolis don't compete for influence in many arenas. If you are arguing which is the 2nd city of the midwest, there are okay supporting arguments for both. But I think the biggest thing is the neither comes close to projecting a 2nd city level of influence across the entire region. Because Chicago is so far above either, and is located directly between the two, there's very little area where they actually compete. Minneapolis projects near zero influence east of Chicago, Detroit projects near zero influence west of Chicago. The only geographic area where both Minneapolis and Detroit project real influence and compete is in the western UP. I would argue that due to the geographic divide caused by Lake Michigan and Chicago's huge center of economic, cultural, and political mass, Minneapolis and Detroit function separately as 2nd cities in different parts of the Midwest and that neither can rightfully lay a claim to be 2nd city for the entire Midwest.

Separately, I would also argue that Minneapolis can lay a more solid claim to being the first city of a much larger region than Detroit can-- the dominant influence that Minneapolis projects across its borders outside of Minnesota across the Dakotas, much of Montana, Wisconsin, and Iowa (and arguably to a lesser extent, parts of the UP and Nebraska) is something entirely different from Detroit's influence outside of Michigan and the relationship that Detroit has with nearby states like Indiana and Ohio.
I would counter that Detroit is far more well known than Minneapolis outside of the Midwest. If you ask anyone who isn't from the Midwest to name two cities in the Midwest, they would probably say Chicago first, and Detroit second.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2019, 3:53 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is online now
crisis actor
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: under the coin of caesar
Posts: 9,659
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I would counter that Detroit is far more well known than Minneapolis outside of the Midwest. If you ask anyone who isn't from the Midwest to name two cities in the Midwest, they would probably say Chicago first, and Detroit second.
i would go for that, detroit is more internationally known, specifically. culturally, since world war II there's no question that detroit outstrips the twin cities in influence in my mind (and probably most people).
__________________
t h e r e is no C h a o s.... . . . only g r e a t E n e r g y
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2019, 4:01 PM
Centropolis's Avatar
Centropolis Centropolis is online now
crisis actor
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: under the coin of caesar
Posts: 9,659
also, for most of that time, because of the auto industry and the associated auto parts mfg networks detroit far outstripped the twin cities in economic influence in the midwest. as an example...today, there are zero automaker facilities in st. louis and st. louis county. however, i read that at one time only st. louis was behind detroit in auto mfg (when the corvette was made here, all the carburetors, TRW engine component plants, however many assembly plants were here...), and so the connections with detroit were huge.

i work for an environmental consultant and have auto mfg/related clients and at a recent facility that was a former parts factory in st. louis county, in one corner of an office was a 3 ft tall pile of TWA ticket stubs from the 80s for flights between STL and DTW between overturned file cabinets.
__________________
t h e r e is no C h a o s.... . . . only g r e a t E n e r g y

Last edited by Centropolis; Apr 5, 2019 at 4:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2019, 4:02 PM
COS COS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by xzmattzx View Post
Anyone ever take interest in the second cities of countries, states, provinces, or other subdivisions? Second cities are the second-biggest/secondmost important city in a certain place. Most people visit the primary city in a country or place when traveling: Paris in France, Reykjavik in Iceland, Lisbon in Portugal, St. John's in Newfoundland & Labrador in Canada, Denver in Colorado, and so on.

Ever travel to any second city? Ever visit a second city before the primary city? Do you think that the second city is a better slice of the country's/state's/province's people and culture, since most visitors go to the primary city? Do you like the second city more or less than the primary city?

Here's some examples of second cities:

Bahamas: Freeport
Iceland: Akureyri
Portugal: Porto
Greece: Thessaloniki
Colorado: Colorado Springs
Arizona: Tucson
Nevada: Reno
Newfoundland & Labrador: Corner Brook
Prince Edward Island: Sunnyside
I have a mixed opinion on the Colorado Springs reference. I can understand how an outside perspective, or just a Denver perspective, might produce the opinion that the Springs is a second city due to how different the economic drivers and political climate are. However, after living in both Denver and the Springs, I am of the opinion that the Springs is Denver's biggest suburb and not anywhere close to being able to stand alone as it's own city.

The Springs has basically no suburb network of it's own, the largest being Fountain at roughly 35k people. Outside of the DoD and the private sector companies like NG/Boeing/GD it supports, there's no other significant independent economic drivers compared to other peer cities. Even though the Springs has significant tourism, Denver still is the main tourism center in Colorado and provides tourism transfers down to the Springs. A large portion of the Springs population growth in the past 10 years has been driven by commuters to jobs in Denver's traditional south suburbs in work centers like the Tech Center and Greenwood Village.

I think the main factor preventing the Springs from being viewed as any other Denver suburb is the geographical Palmer Divide. Douglas County's aggressive development of Castle Rock and keeping ranch open space in the 15-mile stretch between Castle Rock and Monument has helped prevent a seamless sprawl connecting the south suburbs to the Springs. As the public transportation options become more effective in the next 10 years, I would bet the demographics of commuters will become undeniably linked to the point that the Springs MSA will officially fall within the Denver CSA. I have the same opinion on Ft Collins MSA.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2019, 7:21 PM
mhays mhays is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 17,416
Of course it has suburbs. Whether the're outside the city limits or not is irrelevant.

But it does seem to have a close connection to Denver. Sort of like Tacoma but a an extra 20 miles away....in some ways its own city and in other ways reliant on the bigger neighbor.
__________________
"Alot" isn't a word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2019, 5:12 AM
Sam Hill's Avatar
Sam Hill Sam Hill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by COS View Post
I have a mixed opinion on the Colorado Springs reference. I can understand how an outside perspective, or just a Denver perspective, might produce the opinion that the Springs is a second city due to how different the economic drivers and political climate are. However, after living in both Denver and the Springs, I am of the opinion that the Springs is Denver's biggest suburb and not anywhere close to being able to stand alone as it's own city.

The Springs has basically no suburb network of it's own, the largest being Fountain at roughly 35k people. Outside of the DoD and the private sector companies like NG/Boeing/GD it supports, there's no other significant independent economic drivers compared to other peer cities. Even though the Springs has significant tourism, Denver still is the main tourism center in Colorado and provides tourism transfers down to the Springs. A large portion of the Springs population growth in the past 10 years has been driven by commuters to jobs in Denver's traditional south suburbs in work centers like the Tech Center and Greenwood Village.

I think the main factor preventing the Springs from being viewed as any other Denver suburb is the geographical Palmer Divide. Douglas County's aggressive development of Castle Rock and keeping ranch open space in the 15-mile stretch between Castle Rock and Monument has helped prevent a seamless sprawl connecting the south suburbs to the Springs. As the public transportation options become more effective in the next 10 years, I would bet the demographics of commuters will become undeniably linked to the point that the Springs MSA will officially fall within the Denver CSA. I have the same opinion on Ft Collins MSA.
I've spent the last year and a half as a truck driver based in Denver. I'm local (which means I get paid by the hour and go home every night) but my runs take me as far out as 325 miles. I've gotten to know the state I grew up in like the back of my hand. I know every pass; I know every town.

Colorado is much different than how I pictured it during all the years I spent as a Denverite that only occasionally left the city for a camping trip, or to ski, or to see the great sand dunes, or whatever. Much different. There are towns that are bigger than I thought they were -- or smaller. There are places I thought were very far from each other since it takes several hours to get from one to the other, but it turns out they're only dozens of miles apart -- but on the opposite side of a mountain range. I know all the traffic patterns. I know where development is booming and where it's not. (Speaking of which, I do flatbed, so I move a lot of brick and lumber.) I know where development is contiguous, or becoming contiguous, or where there are still gaps. I know the relationships towns have with neighboring towns. I know the "suburbs" of The Springs and the "suburbs" of Ft Collins.

Anyway, I agree with every word of your post.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:25 PM
COS COS is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Colorado Springs
Posts: 68
Mhays you're right the Springs has suburbs, but nothing like other stand alone metro areas of peer cities it's size (Tucson, Raleigh, Virginia Beach). It's too dependent upon Denver and just close enough geographically to have developed into it's own significant metro area. In the peer example of Tucson, you see the geographical separation with Phoenix being just far enough that Tucson has a significant suburb network of it's own. Colorado Springs however is the 42nd largest city in the US but only the 79th largest metro area by population. These are the only suburbs in the Springs MSA above 10k people in 2012.

Security-Widefield: 32,882
Fountain: 26,882
Cimarron Hills: 16,161
Fort Carson: 13,813
Black Forest: 13,116
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:45 PM
Buckeye Native 001 Buckeye Native 001 is online now
E pluribus unum
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,536
I'm not even sure I'd consider Tucson a second city in Arizona other than it literally being the second largest city and metro in the state. Phoenix and its surrounding suburbs (Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale, Glendale, etc) are so dominant politically that everything outside of Maricopa County is an afterthought.

I say this as someone who has lived in Arizona but outside of The Valley's sphere of influence for almost a decade.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:49 PM
The Chemist's Avatar
The Chemist The Chemist is offline
恭喜发财!
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: 中国上海/Shanghai
Posts: 8,629
China has so many cities that it's basically impossible to pick a 'second city'. Rather, in China they use an unofficial city tier list.

First Tier: Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen
Second Tier: Nanjing, Tianjin, Wuhan, Chongqing, Hangzhou, Suzhou, Xi'an, etc (i.e. most cities 8.5 million + in population that aren't in the first tier, many of which are either special cities (Chongqing and Tianjin) or provincial capitals (Nanjing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Hangzhou, etc)).

And then there are smaller cities in tiers three and four.
__________________
"Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature." - Michael Faraday (1791-1867)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2019, 11:59 PM
Sam Hill's Avatar
Sam Hill Sam Hill is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Denver
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by COS View Post
Mhays you're right the Springs has suburbs, but nothing like other stand alone metro areas of peer cities it's size (Tucson, Raleigh, Virginia Beach). It's too dependent upon Denver and just close enough geographically to have developed into it's own significant metro area. In the peer example of Tucson, you see the geographical separation with Phoenix being just far enough that Tucson has a significant suburb network of it's own. Colorado Springs however is the 42nd largest city in the US but only the 79th largest metro area by population. These are the only suburbs in the Springs MSA above 10k people in 2012.

Security-Widefield: 32,882
Fountain: 26,882
Cimarron Hills: 16,161
Fort Carson: 13,813
Black Forest: 13,116
I think you missed his point. The city of Colorado Springs' municipal boundaries stretch far beyond the edge of suburbia in places - so when a new, sprawly, suburban, subdivision is developed out at the edge of suburbia, it's often technically within the city limits of Colorado Springs, even though it's "the suburbs". Other cities (like Denver) are land-locked by suburbs, and can't grow outward so they eventually end up with a smaller proportion of the metro's population.

Colorado Springs: 464,474
Miami: 463,347

Colorado Springs Metro: 723,878
Miami Metro: 6,828,241

Tucson, Raleigh and Virginia Beach are not peer cities of Colorado Springs. They're bigger, higher-profile towns.

(So I guess I don't agree with "every word" of your first post like I originally stated, but I do agree with your main point.)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 2:35 AM
xzmattzx's Avatar
xzmattzx xzmattzx is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 5,145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
I'm not even sure I'd consider Tucson a second city in Arizona other than it literally being the second largest city and metro in the state. Phoenix and its surrounding suburbs (Mesa, Tempe, Scottsdale, Glendale, etc) are so dominant politically that everything outside of Maricopa County is an afterthought.

I say this as someone who has lived in Arizona but outside of The Valley's sphere of influence for almost a decade.
Tucson is a classic second city. It's big enough to be the clear second-most influential city in the state, but is easily outweighed by the biggest city. Look at Porto in Portugal, Thessaoloniki in Greece, and Akureyri in Iceland. All are the second-most influential cities in their countries, but are far outshadowed by the largest/capital cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 3:46 AM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 24,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chemist View Post
China has so many cities that it's basically impossible to pick a 'second city'. Rather, in China they use an unofficial city tier list.

First Tier: Shanghai, Beijing, Guangzhou, Shenzhen
Second Tier: Nanjing, Tianjin, Wuhan, Chongqing, Hangzhou, Suzhou, Xi'an, etc (i.e. most cities 8.5 million + in population that aren't in the first tier, many of which are either special cities (Chongqing and Tianjin) or provincial capitals (Nanjing, Wuhan, Xi'an, Hangzhou, etc)).

And then there are smaller cities in tiers three and four.
Chongqing second tier? Is that because there's little political power there? All the corporate glitz in Shenzhen and Shanghai?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2019, 6:19 AM
Pedestrian's Avatar
Pedestrian Pedestrian is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 11,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by COS View Post
Mhays you're right the Springs has suburbs, but nothing like other stand alone metro areas of peer cities it's size (Tucson, Raleigh, Virginia Beach). It's too dependent upon Denver and just close enough geographically to have developed into it's own significant metro area. In the peer example of Tucson, you see the geographical separation with Phoenix being just far enough that Tucson has a significant suburb network of it's own.
I live (half the year) in a suburb of Tucson and Phoenix might as well be on Mars. It's a 2hr (with traffic) drive away through a lot of desert.

Politically and socially the two are very different also. Tucson is like a big college town, being dominated by the U. of AZ, which makes it politically blue-ish while Phoenix is crimson.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 5:42 PM
Razor Razor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,071
Ottawa is definitely Ontario's second city next to the Toronto juggernaut.
Having stated that, Ottawa may be unique in comparison to other second cities in that it is the federal capital, so having that status may put a little more weight on that second city designation in comparison to other second cities.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Jun 16, 2019, 7:20 PM
Urban Zombie's Avatar
Urban Zombie Urban Zombie is offline
Crisp and Squishy
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Camp Crystal Lake
Posts: 7,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Chongqing second tier? Is that because there's little political power there? All the corporate glitz in Shenzhen and Shanghai?
Chongqing, which is basically a human equivalent of an anthill, is definitely 2nd tier; despite it being a city-state of its own, the nearby Chengdu has more political clout.

----------

As for the US, New York is without a doubt the second city to Jacksonville, FL.
__________________
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

算了吧,杰克,这里是唐人街
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 6:54 AM
Shawn Shawn is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tokyo
Posts: 5,107
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I'm an older millennial and I've always thought of Montreal as secondary to Toronto. In truth, Canada never really registered as a place that had big cities when I was growing up, so I was never that curious about Toronto or Montreal (youthful ignorance). But I always assumed Toronto was the most important place in Canada next to Windsor.
I’m a xennial (cringe) and for us Montreal was always “the city” in Canada. But probably a lot of that has to do with being from Boston.

Osaka is Japan’s second city in spirit (and first city in stomach, as they say), but Yokohama actually has about 1.1 million more residents than Osaka does at this point. Yokohama is huge - nearly 4 million people in the same land area as New Orleans or San Jose.
__________________
“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”
Harlan Ellison
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 4:06 PM
Razor Razor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I’m a xennial (cringe) and for us Montreal was always “the city” in Canada. But probably a lot of that has to do with being from Boston.
I'm old enough to remember when Montreal was "thee" premiere city in Canada (even Anglo Canada), with Toronto being a close second. .The successful Expo 67 (slightly before my time), having a MLB before Toronto, the 76 Olympics and the great Habs dynasties of the 70's had everything to do with that..Then, of course the flip flop in the mid 70's happened. Toronto is now well ahead both in Canada (overall) and at the world stage.

I guess we can see this potentially happen in Australia.

on a micro level, it would be like Cincinnati taking over Columbus or Cleveland maybe?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 7:20 PM
2000_Watts 2000_Watts is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
No, it's definitely a part of metro Detroit. Without Detroit, Windsor wouldn't be there. Much like Detroit's suburbs. But it is definitely NOT part of the Detroit MSA.

LOL People kill me with trying to tell people of a particular city how they should identify THEMSELVES...

If people WHO LIVE IN DETROIT claim Windsor, ON as part of Detroit, then it's part of Detroit REGARDLESS of what someone online says from hundreds of miles away.


That's like the same NON-Chicagoans who are set to convince the world that Chicago is some sort of wanna-be NYC that somehow got lost in the Midwest, rather than the Midwest juggernaut that it is only because parts of the Loop may resemble Manhattan. NO ONE actually from Chicago thinks about New York because as far as Chicago is concerned, Chicago is the center of the universe that is Chicagoland.

Also like the people trying to tell people in Dallas or Houston that they're not in the south despite the fact that EVERY SINGLE NATIVE I've of both of those metropolitan regions IDENTIFY THEMSELVES as Southerners.


In other words, quit trying to tell people with which region they should identify...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 7:31 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston
Posts: 24,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn View Post
I’m a xennial (cringe) and for us Montreal was always “the city” in Canada. But probably a lot of that has to do with being from Boston.
Same for us in New York. As a kid, Montreal always seem edge out Toronto as Canada's premier city. There was a lot more focus on it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Jun 17, 2019, 7:38 PM
Steely Dan's Avatar
Steely Dan Steely Dan is online now
devout Pizzatarian
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Lincoln Square, Chicago
Posts: 21,073
yes, montreal was perceived as canada's alpha city even long after it was in fact so.

one of the things that probably aided that perception lag was montreal's much more exotic french allure.

to many americans, toronto was like any other great lakes city, just without the obligatory big black ghetto full of violence and despair, whereas montreal was seen as a truly foreign city right on our nation's doorstep.
__________________
He has to go.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jun 17, 2019 at 7:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:45 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.