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  #441  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2010, 11:17 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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So... we'd all be better off paying more attention to Talton? A deranged former ambulance driver with zero business experience with a special knack for snarky writing, a clear grudge against Christianity, and the ability to quickly and unjustifiably pull the race card? That bozo?

The guy is a bitter blowhard, a one-trick-pony (Phoenix bashing). He needs to remove the enormous chip from his shoulder and quit being a failure at life. The sooner he and others stop relying on government to solve their problems and instead figure it out for themselves, the better off we'll all be. Just because Talton couldn't hack it here, doesn't mean we all can't.
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  #442  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2010, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
So... we'd all be better off paying more attention to Talton? A deranged former ambulance driver with zero business experience with a special knack for snarky writing, a clear grudge against Christianity, and the ability to quickly and unjustifiably pull the race card? That bozo?

The guy is a bitter blowhard, a one-trick-pony (Phoenix bashing). He needs to remove the enormous chip from his shoulder and quit being a failure at life. The sooner he and others stop relying on government to solve their problems and instead figure it out for themselves, the better off we'll all be. Just because Talton couldn't hack it here, doesn't mean we all can't.
As much as it pains me to say this, his contribution to Phoenix Noir was the only good part of such a disappointment of a book. Now, if only he had finished that short story.
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  #443  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2010, 11:43 PM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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So was throwing tea in Boston Harbor.
Whose law? The Brits? You'd be hard-pressed to find a reasonable individual to support taxation without representation, which is precisely what sparked the "Tea Party" among the colonists.

How the Tea Party compares to illegal immigration, I have no idea. There are legal channels to obtain citizenship and all of the benefits (including representation) that come with it in this nation. We are not a land of lawlessness and chaos, which I would presume is one of the many reasons our country proves so attractive to outsiders.

When someone wishes to move to another country, do you expect the person to adapt to the country or the country to adapt to the person?

As much as Democrats would like to court illegals, shower them with entitlements, and hand them citizenship to instantly provide them 12 million more voters, I don't believe this sort of manipulation to be healthy for our future.
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  #444  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Whose law? The Brits?
Well the Americans were British citizens at that time, so yes the were subject to the British crowns laws.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
You'd be hard-pressed to find a reasonable individual to support taxation without representation, which is precisely what sparked the "Tea Party" among the colonists.
That may be true now, but wasn't then. Which is why taxing colonist without representing them was so widespread throughout all Imperial Nations.

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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
How the Tea Party compares to illegal immigration, I have no idea.
Because both our current immigration laws and the laws the British crown placed on the Colonist at the time were immoral and deserve to be over thrown or ignored and subverted in any way possible.

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There are legal channels to obtain citizenship and all of the benefits (including representation) that come with it in this nation.
Do you have any clue how hard it is to become a US Citizen these days? Its not like the 1920's when we let a flood of people in through Ellis Island, there are huge restrictions on becoming a US Citizen, even for well educated, hard working folks. When you're living in squalor in a 3rd world country and a land of opportunity is just a short jaunt a way, do you really expect people to stay in the squalor because of some idiotic law?

I've had many friends desperately try to become US citizens and they've had to return to their home countries because getting citizenship here is so difficult.

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When someone wishes to move to another country, do you expect the person to adapt to the country or the country to adapt to the person?
I really don't care either way. Statements like this are generally just thinly veiled racism or xenophobia. Whats it matter if someone moves here and doesn't become Americanized? Isn't what makes America great how different we all are?

I drove by the Sikh Temple in Coronado the other day, I saw about 10 guys in Turbans playing Cricket. Should I have shouted "put on ball caps and play baseball like an American you brownies!"? They were having fun and I got to watch a few minutes of cricket, it was pretty cool if you ask me.

Most immigrants by the 2nd and 3rd generation become pretty homogenized with the rest of society and anyone who knew anything about history would already be aware of that.

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As much as Democrats would like to court illegals, shower them with entitlements, and hand them citizenship to instantly provide them 12 million more voters, I don't believe this sort of manipulation to be healthy for our future.
I don't know what this has to do with anything. I'm not a Democrat, I'm an American, part of being an American is welcoming in as many immigrants as possible.

Our National immigration policy ought to be: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

If you can't get on board with that, I'm not sure how you can call yourself an American. Lets streamline the immigration process and let in more of everyone, not just Hispanics. More Indians, South Americans, Europeans, whoever. If they're willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles, often times leave their families, just for a thin shot at improving their lives, they sound like the sort of people I want in my country.

We've got plenty of room and plenty of opportunity for everyone, we ought to re open the golden door.
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  #445  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:27 AM
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I do not normally get involved when people start "bashing" each other on the forums, but I have to chime in here. Just because you do not agree or like one's comments, does not mean you have to start attacking them and calling them out personally. That is low blows.

It is one thing to disagree, but come on, let's play nice.
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  #446  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:34 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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I do not normally get involved when people start "bashing" each other on the forums, but I have to chime in here. Just because you do not agree or like one's comments, does not mean you have to start attacking them and calling them out personally. That is low blows.

It is one thing to disagree, but come on, let's play nice.
why would we play nice?
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  #447  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:51 AM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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Because both our current immigration laws and the laws the British crown placed on the Colonist at the time were immoral and deserve to be over thrown or ignored and subverted in any way possible.
Incorrect.

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Do you have any clue how hard it is to become a US Citizen these days? Its not like the 1920's when we let a flood of people in through Ellis Island, there are huge restrictions on becoming a US Citizen, even for well educated, hard working folks. When you're living in squalor in a 3rd world country and a land of opportunity is just a short jaunt a way, do you really expect people to stay in the squalor because of some idiotic law?
Yes. Maybe they should improve their own countries. We have enough trouble without them bringing their problems here.

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I've had many friends desperately try to become US citizens and they've had to return to their home countries because getting citizenship here is so difficult.
Have you looked at the unemployment numbers. We don't need any more bodies in this country.


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I really don't care either way. Statements like this are generally just thinly veiled racism or xenophobia.
OK, that's just BS. I can now see why you feel the way you do.

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Whats it matter if someone moves here and doesn't become Americanized? Isn't what makes America great how different we all are?
No, you obviously don't understand the own melting pot reference you alluded to. People coming here should ENRICH the US, not be their own little clicks and pockets. This country isn't Canada, Mexico, India, the UK, Korea, or whatever hole you are fleeing, its the USA, so don't try to make it what you left.

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part of being an American is welcoming in as many immigrants as possible.
Only when we needed BODIES. We haven't needed unskilled labor in many decades.

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Our National immigration policy ought to be: "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
See above.

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If you can't get on board with that, I'm not sure how you can call yourself an American.
I'm sure how I can call myself American. Not sure about how you sleep at night though.

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Lets streamline the immigration process and let in more of everyone, not just Hispanics. More Indians, South Americans, Europeans, whoever. If they're willing to travel hundreds or thousands of miles, often times leave their families, just for a thin shot at improving their lives, they sound like the sort of people I want in my country.
Lets set up an exchange. For each hardworking, honest, law abiding, educated citizen we let in, the country of origination has to take a liberal in return.

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We've got plenty of room and plenty of opportunity for everyone, we ought to re open the golden door.
On this we greatly disagree.
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  #448  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:52 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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Hoover,

We live in a complicated world, much different than the one when an idealistic inscription was placed on the Statue of Liberty. I agree that the process to become a citizen is absurdly lengthy, can be burdensome, and certainly needs to be improved. Until that happens, current laws should be respected.

Pulling the racism/xenophobia card is ridiculously unfair and inaccurate. You are aware that many illegals have blue eyes and blonde hair, correct? I don't give a rat's behind if they are green with purple polk-a-dots.

I've been blessed to travel around the world quite a bit and I've seen the way others live first-hand. I'm the first to admit that it's only by the grace of God that I was so fortunate to be born in the United States and yes, if I was born into a 3rd world country, I too would be looking for a better quality of life elsewhere. Life is not always fair, unfortunately. Becoming an American is a privilege, not a right.

Yes, I expect newcomers to learn American history, learn our language, and respect our culture and I see nothing outlandish about that expectation. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ABANDONING THEIR OWN CULTURE.

Calling our illegal immigration laws immoral is interesting to say the least. Obviously, not everyone in our society sees morality the same way. Some goofball on these boards the other day said he didn't feel obligated to continue to pay his mortgage because "we don't live in that moral world any more." I now know that some think morals can suddenly change based on circumstance. Pathetic.

Never called you a Democrat. Merely pointed out why the Dems take the stance they take. If you think it's not political, I don't know what to tell you.
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  #449  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:55 AM
DowntownDweller DowntownDweller is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Some goofball on these boards the other day said he didn't feel obligated to continue to pay his mortgage because "we don't live in that moral world any more." I now know that some think morals can suddenly change based on circumstance. Pathetic. .
I lambasted Sean for that irresponsible outlook. Should be criminal in my opinion. Nobody has personal responsibility any more.
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  #450  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 12:58 AM
PHX NATIVE 929 PHX NATIVE 929 is offline
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"Because both our current immigration laws and the laws the British crown placed on the Colonist at the time were immoral and deserve to be over thrown or ignored and subverted in any way possible."

Those that believe it justifiable to blow up abortion clinics would give a healthy round of applause to the quote above.
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  #451  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 1:00 AM
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I hope you didnt think I was calling you a racist or xenophobe, but I think you can agree that a huge percentage of the anti immigration/"Minute Men" crowd definitely fit that bill.

The world is a complicated place, but to me immigration isn't a terribly complicated issue. I've driven all across this country, from San Diego to Sandusky, we've got lots of room for lots and lots more immigrants. Just drive around in Phoenix and look at all of our empty lots, I wish we had more immigrants in our city, creating interesting ehtnic neighborhoods, opening tasty unique restaurants, working their butts off at jobs Im too lazy to do.

If you or I were living in squalor in Mexico, we'd probably break US law and sneak in too. I don't think that makes the immigrants bad people, its the law thats the issue, not the people. We need to figure out a way to 1. allow more people in, and 2. set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work and return home.

But it seems silly to me to say "Well our current laws are broken and silly, lets spend a lot more money, time, resources and effort trying to enforce them."
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  #452  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 2:54 AM
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Hoover, do you really think it is about race, or do you think it is about class?

We don't want a bunch of poor people in our country that we have to support, nor do we want a bunch of criminals. That's not to say all illegals are true criminals (aside from the fact that it is illegal), but if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity.

Every country has immigration laws, and most of them are aimed to limit the number of immigrants to those that are better off. All other things equal, I'd pick a more wealthy immigrant to give citizenship to over a poorer immigrant. Just as you probably enjoy and favor your brother that can pick up the check at dinner when it's his turn or split a case of beer with you, over your brother that's always asking you for money or is the mooch of the family.

I don't get why people always have to pull the race or xenophobe card... to me that's hypocracy. You don't support racial profiling, yet you "profile" anyone that may be in support of the immigration laws as a racist?

Here's another "idealistic inscription" (or saying): United We Stand, Divided We Fall. This partisan bullshit in the country right now is so bad, those on the Left and those on the Right are causing everything to crumble.
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  #453  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 3:24 AM
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Hoover, do you really think it is about race, or do you think it is about class?
When I hear "Minute Men" types using anti Hispanic racial slurs, its pretty hard for me not to assume its a racial thing. Anyone paying attention to the immigration issue has heard a huge amount of racism, I cant imagine how people deny this.

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We don't want a bunch of poor people in our country that we have to support, nor do we want a bunch of criminals.
Most illegals try to stay out of trouble w/ the law b/c they don't want to get deported, so most of them aren't criminals. Further, it seems odd to me that someone would risk so much to leave their family, come to the US, go through all the hoops of becoming a citizen, just to be a crook. Im sure it happens, but I don't think in significant enough numbers to worry about.

I can understand the concern about immigrants being a leach on Social Services, an issue that didn't exist as much in the Golden era of Immigration as US Social Services were far more limited. I don't have the answer for that, but the first idea that comes to mind if perhaps some sort of system in which once you get your citizenship you sign an agreement waiving your access to Welfare and the like for 5 years or something.

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Every country has immigration laws, and most of them are aimed to limit the number of immigrants to those that are better off. All other things equal, I'd pick a more wealthy immigrant to give citizenship to over a poorer immigrant.
Sure I'll take the rich guy, but give me the poor hard working guy too. Its not like we're letting in scores of rich, well educated immigrants either, every year we deny access to Doctors, Engineers, Scientists, etc. for a variety of reasons.

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I don't get why people always have to pull the race or xenophobe card... to me that's hypocracy. You don't support racial profiling, yet you "profile" anyone that may be in support of the immigration laws as a racist?
Im not profiling anyone. Its pretty easy to call a racist a racist when they use terms like "beaner", "spic", "wetback," etc.
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  #454  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 3:43 AM
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When I hear "Minute Men" types using anti Hispanic racial slurs, its pretty hard for me not to assume its a racial thing. Anyone paying attention to the immigration issue has heard a huge amount of racism, I cant imagine how people deny this.
I'm sure you're right, but there are people out there that aren't "minute men" that support this law and I guarantee you aren't racist. This is supported by 70% of Arizonans... you honestly think a "huge amount" of that 70% of the entire state of Arizona are racists?

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Most illegals try to stay out of trouble w/ the law b/c they don't want to get deported, so most of them aren't criminals. Further, it seems odd to me that someone would risk so much to leave their family, come to the US, go through all the hoops of becoming a citizen, just to be a crook. Im sure it happens, but I don't think in significant enough numbers to worry about.
Again, I'm sure you're right and I agree, however, that's why I said "if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity." Some of the "hard workers" are also criminals... but the main problem and the main criminals are those into human smuggling and coyotes and kidnappings. Not to mention idenity theft, which may be the biggest threat and problem posed by illegals to the majority of us (especially our hispanic/latino citizens).

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I can understand the concern about immigrants being a leach on Social Services, an issue that didn't exist as much in the Golden era of Immigration as US Social Services were far more limited. I don't have the answer for that, but the first idea that comes to mind if perhaps some sort of system in which once you get your citizenship you sign an agreement waiving your access to Welfare and the like for 5 years or something.
This is another part of the equation... your idea seems like a good one.
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  #455  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 4:13 AM
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I'm sure you're right, but there are people out there that aren't "minute men" that support this law and I guarantee you aren't racist. This is supported by 70% of Arizonans... you honestly think a "huge amount" of that 70% of the entire state of Arizona are racists?
The last poll I saw had support at around 50%. I think this law, like many controversial laws has had a lot of misinformation and confusion surrounding it. I don't think most people are racist, but I do think most are so exasperated at the immigration problem they probably think "Well something big has to be done" and this seems like something big.

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Again, I'm sure you're right and I agree, however, that's why I said "if you have to lump together the good with the bad to keep out the bad, it's an unfortunate necessity." Some of the "hard workers" are also criminals... but the main problem and the main criminals are those into human smuggling and coyotes and kidnappings. Not to mention idenity theft, which may be the biggest threat and problem posed by illegals to the majority of us (especially our hispanic/latino citizens).
Yah we'll certainly end up with some stinkers. I mean from my understanding organized crime, street gangs, etc. were a major problem with uneducated, poor immigrants in the early part of the 20th century, but on the whole I think we'd all take the good we got from the immigrants with the bad if we had to do it again.

Plus Im a pasty white red headed guy, Im not too worried about a Mexican stealing my identity

EDIT: VVV I haven't seen any numbers that bear that out. In fact most prominent Hispanics, Hispanic groups, and Hispanic community leaders are calling for boycotts of AZ and canceling events here.

If you want to deny a racist undertone to anti immigration fervor, go for it. You're not helping your cause, you're making yourself look silly. Since the days of "No Irish need apply" and before xenophobia has always in part been a racial issue.

Last edited by HooverDam; May 1, 2010 at 2:58 PM.
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  #456  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 2:49 PM
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You are aware that there are a lot of hispanics which support this, do you not? Are they racist too?
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  #457  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 5:15 PM
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Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929 View Post
Whose law? The Brits? You'd be hard-pressed to find a reasonable individual to support taxation without representation, which is precisely what sparked the "Tea Party" among the colonists.

How the Tea Party compares to illegal immigration, I have no idea. There are legal channels to obtain citizenship and all of the benefits (including representation) that come with it in this nation. We are not a land of lawlessness and chaos, which I would presume is one of the many reasons our country proves so attractive to outsiders.

When someone wishes to move to another country, do you expect the person to adapt to the country or the country to adapt to the person?

As much as Democrats would like to court illegals, shower them with entitlements, and hand them citizenship to instantly provide them 12 million more voters, I don't believe this sort of manipulation to be healthy for our future.
Well said. The analogy used Boston Tea Party to Illegal Immigration is ridiculous.

70% of Arizonans support. 51% of the US favor, while only 39% disapprove.
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  #458  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 8:02 PM
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Well said. The analogy used Boston Tea Party to Illegal Immigration is ridiculous.

70% of Arizonans support. 51% of the US favor, while only 39% disapprove.
So if a lot of people support something it becomes a good idea? Those polling numbers aren't really that meaningful because like I said a lot of people currently don't understand the law. There have been numerous articles stating most people are waiting to come down on one side of the fence or the other and get more info before making up their minds.

But I'm glad you backed up your argument with points and didn't just say something was ridiculous out of hand...oh wait, you didn't do that at all.
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  #459  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 8:28 PM
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It shouldn't surprise me one bit that 70% of Arizonans are in favor of the new law. McCain won the state by the same margin. People here elect an endlessly worse series of buffoons to the Statehouse every time. We are 50th in virtually every measure of social progress and most of Arizona is fine with that.

So spare me those stupid statistics of popular opinion. I know what it counts for here and what it's ultimately worth.

Nothing.

"What's right is not always popular, what's popular is not always right."
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  #460  
Old Posted May 1, 2010, 10:25 PM
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Those polling numbers aren't really that meaningful because like I said a lot of people currently don't understand the law.
And I'd be willing to bet the vast majority (75%+) of those that don't understand the law are on the opposition side.

Here's a quote from a major league baseball player I saw on ESPN.com:

"It's a bad thing," said Baltimore shortstop Cesar Izturis, born in Venezuela. "Now they're going to go after everybody, not just the people behind the wall. Now they're going to come out on the street. What if you're walking on the street with your family and kids? They're going to go after you."

This guys is a complete moron and has the mind set that I've seen expressed over and over from the opposition. He thinks, although there is no way in hell that this will happen, that "they are going to go after you" if you're simply walking down the street with your kids. And what the hell does he mean by "going after everybody, not just the people behind the wall"??? I'm assuming he means the border fence/wall, in which case we obviously don't go after people behind the wall.

As if our entire police force is going to suddenly drop everything they normally do and suddenly become like the Nazi SS and go after the illegals (Jews).

Remember that game "telephone" where you get into a circle with a bunch of friends and the person at the beginning says something into their neighbor's ear, then that person says what they heard into their neighbor's ear and it goes around the circle until it gets to the end and the end person ususally says something completely ludicrious, no where near what it started out as? That's like what's going on through the opposition. No one is doing their own research, they're just listening to what their neighbor is saying about it and by now most people are just thinking and saying nonsense. It went from "this law is basically the federal law already in place" to "If a police officer even sees a Latino walking down the street they're going to run after them, beat them with their billy club and throw them in jail.

I'm against this law and hope it goes away simply because I want all those morons out there to just shut the hell up.
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