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  #61  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2008, 9:38 PM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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DIE and newflyer;

your bantering has only proven that both cities have advantages and disadvantages. Based on what I have read from both of you, I think that both cities have niche markets that they could fill. Edmonton = Asia and Winnipeg = Europe + Russia, as Russia has shown great interest in Churchill as a shipping port into NA.

You guys are trying to out-top eachother, but all it ends up being is a dick-measuring contest, and we have enough of that crap around here.

Dave, you are very passionate about this for Edmonton. However, this is the Manitoba section, and support is growing in Winnipeg for this. Winnipeg will be competition for Edmonton, that is a fact. However, only time will tell how both cities fair in the end. I suggest that you start a thread about Edmonton's inland port in the Alberta and post everything there that you did here. I really am not seeing any buzz for this concept in the Alberta section,or hearing much about it in the media, but that is my opinion only. I think you would be a great person to kickstart the enthusiasm for this topic in the Alberta section



In the end, this is great news for Winnipeg and will likely provide a big economic boost to the province. Giver
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  #62  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2008, 9:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newflyer View Post
While I did show Winnipeg's capacity to handle massive levels of goods and link them to the continent .. I wouldn't be fair if I didn't do the same for Edmonton and Regina, since they think they are in the running.



Edmonton CNR .. there is no CPR Yard in Edmonton to my knowledge



Regina CPR Yards .... no CNR Yards

Even if you combined the two cities they only offer a tiny fraction of Winnipeg's transportation capacity.
I can't even imagine either of those two cities imagining they are even in the running to become a major Inland Port.

Although Edmonton will make a good regional container port for Prince Rupert one day.
The fact that you are showing the current CPR yard in Regina and touting it as the port leads me to believe that you don't actually know what the plans are for Regina.

Those yards are in the process of being moved out to the airport. Which is the very reason why Regina is being selected as the city for the inland port. It offers rail, highway and air all in close proximity to one another. Something that can't be said for other cities.

If this was such a pipe dream for the City then why would Canada's largest grocer be investing some $200 million into the plan. Why would they not be directing that investment to Winnipeg if it was the superior location. Again at the end of the day, Regina has started the process and is actually seeing dirt being moved, Winnipeg's plan is nothing but paper.
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  #63  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2008, 9:56 PM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Well, it's more than paper now with government commitments to overhauling infrastructure needs, on the provincial and municipal levels anyhow.

CCF, I'm curious. You've mentioned what you believe are advantages that Regina has over Winnipeg, but I'd like to know what advantages do you see Regina having over Edmonton for top-dog inland port, if there are any at all that is?

Last edited by Greco Roman; Sep 21, 2008 at 10:42 PM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Sep 21, 2008, 10:31 PM
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it seems that the only real logical argument for edmonton is the prince rupert port...capacity at prince rupert however is only a fraction of vancouver...certainly not enough to justify an kind of super hub in edmonton.

sure, they have some air route advantages, but really how much cargo is carried by air?...in comparasin to ship it is also a fraction.

since edmoton is so remote, it would seem illogical to drag cargo from vancouver all the way up to edmonton and then back down to the world....

in my mind edmonton's big advantage is a provincial government that can spend whatever it wants on whatever it wants....any obstacle can be overcome by money.
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  #65  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 2:32 AM
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Now Playing....Winnport Reruns

Flashback 20 years to Winnport ( I remember guys back then that had rose coloured glasses on like N.F. does now ). Churchill is never going to play into Winnipeg's plans... it has no shipping container port and no plans for one.
Todays proposal - Centreport.
Let me know what the proposal name is in 20 years from now.
This Inland port movie just keeps rerunning itself.

On another note great job to both DIE and NF for all the great information both of you have presented.
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  #66  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 2:52 AM
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  #67  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 7:44 PM
DAVEinEDMONTON DAVEinEDMONTON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
it seems that the only real logical argument for edmonton is the prince rupert port...capacity at prince rupert however is only a fraction of vancouver...certainly not enough to justify an kind of super hub in edmonton.
From the Port of Prince Rupert website...

A Vision for the Future

Containerization Opportunities

Containerization has quickly evolved into the primary mode of shipping cargo globally, and Prince Rupert, in partnership with CN Rail and Maher Terminals, is taking advantage of this business opportunity. The 500,000-TEU (20-foot equivalent units) Prince Rupert Container Terminal is one of the most efficient facilities on the continent. The terminal also opened a new Asia-North America high-speed gateway, the first transpacific trade corridor to be created in a hundred years.

The surging Asian trade is projected to increase container volumes by 300 per cent into North America by 2020. To meet this demand, plans are underway to rapidly expand capacity. Phase 2 expansion of the Prince Rupert Container Terminal will quadruple the terminal's capacity to two million TEUs. A second container terminal, now in its design stages, has Prince Rupert on course to handle up to 5 million TEUs by 2020.

From the Port of Vancouver website...plans are underway to increase to 4 million TEUs by 2012...

The Port of Prince Rupert could end up being bigger as far as TEU container shipment capacity is concerned.
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  #68  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 7:44 PM
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dp
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  #69  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 8:10 PM
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So there, you and Viking have just solved the problem right there - it looks like Prince Rupert will rival Vancouver's terminal so Edmonton can have PR and Winnipeg will take Van. Everything works in straight lines.

....That will be $80.73 in mediation fees please.
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  #70  
Old Posted Sep 22, 2008, 9:17 PM
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Good discussion, and I have nothing to contribute in terms of where Saskatoon fits into the scheme of things except that our rail facilities handle mostly agricultural products and potash, primarily destined for Asian markets (e.g. Port of Prince Rupert will see increased commodity flows from Saskatchewan producers due to congestion at Vancouver)

And I can't see either of Saskatchewan's big cities serving any primary role in terms of international distribution, domestically is a different story as many of you already hinted. The provincial government is seeking strategic partnerships to secure select manufacturing and distribution centres (e.g. Loblaws investment into Regina, although that is merely a re-location and upsizing from their current Saskatoon DC...so we're not much farther ahead than before, that could easily change though...as trueviking pointed out, money talks).

CNR yards - Served by CNR transcontinental main line


CPR yards - Served by CPR secondary main line


Location relative to YXE


Also a reference that came up in a past thread about inland port development...and the Saskatchewan Agrivision Corporation INC disbanded as an organization back in July, take that for what its worth. I have the 204kb pdf file format of the Interim Progress Report available if anyone is interested, as the Agrivision website is no longer active.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskatchewan Agrivision Corporation INC
An Interim Progress Report has been released on the "Prairie-to-Ports Gateway and Inland Port" project.
Here is a link to the Interim Progress Report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saskatchewan Agrivision Corporation INC

Individual cities do not have capacity to be an inland port because a single
location has limited infrastructure and not enough volume of traffic. For example,
despite its location and size, the City of Winnipeg has been unsuccessful in
several attempts to establish an integrated road, rail and air “Inland Port” at one
location.

[...]



The Saskatchewan-based Inland Port, roughly identified by the yellow circle in
the above chart, has a very similar geographic size and configuration as the
successful Kansas City SmartPort, which is 185 miles [300 km] in diameter and
captures the assets of major highway, rail and air corridors.

It is important to remember that the Vancouver Port is composed of 41 terminal
locations across a broad geographic region. It also is not a single location. The
major cities of Moose Jaw, Regina and Saskatoon, when considered as a single
entity, provide most of the required assets and services of a “port”, albeit with a
more diffusely dispersed hinterland than the theoretical ideal.

[...]

The Progress Report of the current Prairie Gateway project, anticipated to be complete
by June 30, 2008, will include reports on a variety of important issues including:
1. A development plan for creating Federal “tax free zones” in the Inland Port region
to attract distribution centres, assembly facilities and other “port” services.
2. A ten-year export volume forecast for the major crops in Canada.
3. Promotion and public relations activities and presentations by Doug Campbell
and Agrivision in key transportation conferences, seminars, workshops and other
speaking opportunities to promote the Prairie Gateway and gather information
from other players in the North American and Global transportation supply
chains.
4. Compilation of key “drivers” for major investor / decision makers to endorse the

Prairie Gateway project.
Source - Page 7/8
Source

Last edited by Ruckus; Sep 22, 2008 at 9:48 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2008, 2:11 AM
DAVEinEDMONTON DAVEinEDMONTON is offline
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An interesting editorial from the WFP...

Wed 16 Jan 2008.

PUBLICATION: WINNIPEG FREE PRESS
PAGE: A10

The idea of relocating the CPR yard and mainline, which have divided the city for more than a century, is not new, but it is an idea whose time has come, yet again. At this point, though, Winnipeg will have to scramble to catch up to the relocation fever sweeping the West to get some of the money the federal government is offering for such projects.

The Harper government's Asia-Pacific Gateway and Corridor Initiative is trying to get the provinces, the business sector and transportation corporations to think big about Canada's role in North America's trade with the world. It envisions the movement of Asian goods swiftly, entering at beefed up West Coast ports and then on rail and road "corridors" that connect at urban hubs, or "gateways." The $1 billion the federal government has set aside for this mammoth transportation upgrade is being claimed quickly by cities with big to-do lists.

To move the kind of cargo Ottawa estimates will be coming in by 2020 -- from 1.8 million to seven million containers through the B.C. ports, increasing in trade value from $35 billion to $75 billion -- rail yards must expand to accommodate the trains and their containers, and the trucks that will piggyback the goods along. Edmonton got $75 million in federal funds early last year to relocate the CPR intermodal out of that city. Regina will move its intermodal from its core to a western edge with the help of $27 million from Ottawa.
Winnipeg has dipped into the Asia-Pacific gateway fund, too. Twinning Inkster Boulevard will cost about $70 million, with Ottawa kicking in $33.25. This is intended to make CPR's intermodal at Inkster and McPhillips more efficient, and has obvious links to the airport, the Perimeter and Route 90. It does present to CP, however, the unavoidable question of how it will shoe-horn increased railcar and truck exchanges in yards designed at the end of the 19th century.

Winnipeg MP Pat Martin has tossed the relocation issue into the public forum again. He wants the city to be a national transportation hub, but also regards moving the yards as a catalyst to erasing a physical divide that has always separated Winnipeg's north and south sides, economically and culturally. He envisions social housing, parks and recreation lands to beautify what is a defining swath of cold steel through the heart of the city.

Such ideas piggy back on the prevailing economic agenda of the federal government, but are not supported by the same business case.

Mr. Martin's case is built upon the social benefits that are important but premature. The dream of building utopia on old rail yards cannot occur until new ones are available. What is true is that there has not been a more propitious time in Canadian history to move inner city intermodals. Until the CPR yard moves, a grand vision is nothing more than a grand vision.
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  #72  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 4:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON View Post
From the Port of Prince Rupert website...

A Vision for the Future

Containerization Opportunities

Containerization has quickly evolved into the primary mode of shipping cargo globally, and Prince Rupert, in partnership with CN Rail and Maher Terminals, is taking advantage of this business opportunity. The 500,000-TEU (20-foot equivalent units) Prince Rupert Container Terminal is one of the most efficient facilities on the continent. The terminal also opened a new Asia-North America high-speed gateway, the first transpacific trade corridor to be created in a hundred years.

The surging Asian trade is projected to increase container volumes by 300 per cent into North America by 2020. To meet this demand, plans are underway to rapidly expand capacity. Phase 2 expansion of the Prince Rupert Container Terminal will quadruple the terminal's capacity to two million TEUs. A second container terminal, now in its design stages, has Prince Rupert on course to handle up to 5 million TEUs by 2020.

From the Port of Vancouver website...plans are underway to increase to 4 million TEUs by 2012...

The Port of Prince Rupert could end up being bigger as far as TEU container shipment capacity is concerned.
Based on the influx of shipping coming out of Prince Rupert would it not make sense that it would be Port Alberta in Edmonton that get's developed. As True Viking said if the capacity was there it would be the only reason that Edmonton would get developed, based on what DIE provided from the prince Rupert web site it appears that the capacity is there.
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  #73  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 4:47 AM
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Inland port a huge step for Winnipeg's future, expert says

Updated: September 23 at 05:53 PM CDT | Winnipeg Free Press

A thriving inland port would be a boon to the Winnipeg economy but it’s going to take more than the presence of air, train and trucking facilities to make it a reality, an expert in economic integration warns.

Dr. Stephen Blank, co-chair of the North American Transportation Competitiveness Research Council, told a University of Manitoba audience today that successful inland ports have, above all else, innovative, client-focused business plans.

“People spend a lot of time polishing the physical assets. (They have) an ‘if you build it, they will come’ attitude. You need entrepreneurial imagination. We can build it but how do we persuade people to use it? The most important element of business is the consumer. Who’s going to use your stuff?,” he said.

He said businesses of all sizes need to be convinced that they should move their freight through Winnipeg, especially if one or more value-added processes can be performed on it.

Once that’s accomplished and the inland port is established, a variety of other business clusters will follow, such as servicing vehicles, freight forwarding and financing.
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  #74  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2008, 5:09 AM
DAVEinEDMONTON DAVEinEDMONTON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post

since Edmonton is so remote, it would seem illogical to drag cargo from Vancouver all the way up to Edmonton and then back down to the world....
This seems like a very logical arguement if you consider that CPR was the only railroad servicing Vancouver through Calgary and east onward to Winnipeg...however...CN has its northern line that comes down from Prince Rupert to a point just west of Jasper and it has its southern line that goes up from Vancouver to a point just west of Jasper. Both lines connect west of Jasper and continue on to Edmonton and points further east. So it seems that cargo is going to Edmonton from both Ports anyways if you ship with CN. Seems almost logical that CN develop the inland Port in Edmonton and CP develop the inland Port in Winnipeg to match the existing railway lines.
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  #75  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trueviking View Post
it seems that the only real logical argument for edmonton is the prince rupert port...capacity at prince rupert however is only a fraction of vancouver...certainly not enough to justify an kind of super hub in edmonton.

sure, they have some air route advantages, but really how much cargo is carried by air?...in comparasin to ship it is also a fraction.

since edmoton is so remote, it would seem illogical to drag cargo from vancouver all the way up to edmonton and then back down to the world....

in my mind edmonton's big advantage is a provincial government that can spend whatever it wants on whatever it wants....any obstacle can be overcome by money.


All the money in the world won't move Edmonton closer to large US markets.



Winnipeg's biggest advantage is its location. Its centred on Canada's east-west corridor... and it is on one of the busiest north-south corridors on the continient.

I definatly see Edmonton having a bright future servicing Prince Rupert ... while Winnipeg will continue to act the dominant transportation hub in central Canada. The Inland Port Status gives Winnipeg much greater links to and from Asia/Europe and the States.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 25, 2008 at 4:35 AM.
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  #76  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:44 AM
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I'm all for promoting Churchill as a potential major port but closer to Asia I just don't see this, I know its closer to Europe but where is the data that says its closer to Asia, and when you say Asia are you talking like some distant tip of the continent close to Alaska or which major port city do you say its closer to in Asia?
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  #77  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAVEinEDMONTON View Post
An interesting editorial from the WFP...

Wed 16 Jan 2008.

PUBLICATION: WINNIPEG FREE PRESS
PAGE: A10

The idea of relocating the CPR yard and mainline, which have divided the city for more than a century, is not new, but it is an idea whose time has come, yet again. At this point, though, Winnipeg will have to scramble to catch up to the relocation fever sweeping the West to get some of the money the federal government is offering for such projects.

The Harper government's Asia-Pacific Gateway and Corridor Initiative is trying to get the provinces, the business sector and transportation corporations to think big about Canada's role in North America's trade with the world. It envisions the movement of Asian goods swiftly, entering at beefed up West Coast ports and then on rail and road "corridors" that connect at urban hubs, or "gateways." The $1 billion the federal government has set aside for this mammoth transportation upgrade is being claimed quickly by cities with big to-do lists.

To move the kind of cargo Ottawa estimates will be coming in by 2020 -- from 1.8 million to seven million containers through the B.C. ports, increasing in trade value from $35 billion to $75 billion -- rail yards must expand to accommodate the trains and their containers, and the trucks that will piggyback the goods along. Edmonton got $75 million in federal funds early last year to relocate the CPR intermodal out of that city. Regina will move its intermodal from its core to a western edge with the help of $27 million from Ottawa.
Winnipeg has dipped into the Asia-Pacific gateway fund, too. Twinning Inkster Boulevard will cost about $70 million, with Ottawa kicking in $33.25. This is intended to make CPR's intermodal at Inkster and McPhillips more efficient, and has obvious links to the airport, the Perimeter and Route 90. It does present to CP, however, the unavoidable question of how it will shoe-horn increased railcar and truck exchanges in yards designed at the end of the 19th century.

Winnipeg MP Pat Martin has tossed the relocation issue into the public forum again. He wants the city to be a national transportation hub, but also regards moving the yards as a catalyst to erasing a physical divide that has always separated Winnipeg's north and south sides, economically and culturally. He envisions social housing, parks and recreation lands to beautify what is a defining swath of cold steel through the heart of the city.

Such ideas piggy back on the prevailing economic agenda of the federal government, but are not supported by the same business case.

Mr. Martin's case is built upon the social benefits that are important but premature. The dream of building utopia on old rail yards cannot occur until new ones are available. What is true is that there has not been a more propitious time in Canadian history to move inner city intermodals. Until the CPR yard moves, a grand vision is nothing more than a grand vision.
The fact is Winnipeg already has to very large intermodal terminals, and plan on building a third at the airport.

There has also been government commitments of over $100 million to Winnipeg's infrastructure linkage. With that said we shouldn't confuse the Asia Corridor with the proposed In-land port. There is signifcant amount of government investment happening to improve Canada's access to the global markets.

Its not all going to go to one city. It will be spread across the nation, I am sure. Not to worry though ... there will be alot of federal investment to go around.

Here is to increasing both Edmonton's and Winnipeg's acess to the world.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 25, 2008 at 4:24 AM.
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  #78  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 2:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCF View Post
The fact that you are showing the current CPR yard in Regina and touting it as the port leads me to believe that you don't actually know what the plans are for Regina.

Those yards are in the process of being moved out to the airport. Which is the very reason why Regina is being selected as the city for the inland port. It offers rail, highway and air all in close proximity to one another. Something that can't be said for other cities.

If this was such a pipe dream for the City then why would Canada's largest grocer be investing some $200 million into the plan. Why would they not be directing that investment to Winnipeg if it was the superior location. Again at the end of the day, Regina has started the process and is actually seeing dirt being moved, Winnipeg's plan is nothing but paper.


I am not really sure how a grocery store warehouse relates to an inland port status.... but seeing you think so please note Sobey's to looking at building its second large warehouse in the Winnipeg area (Headingly) ... and Safeway has a very large distribution centre in Winnipeg as well.. which includes the bakery services for the prarie region .... that should lock in massive trade contracts with those Russians.

Sorry ... but gocery store warehouses means very little in the context of global trade. Congrats on your soon to be fresher food products.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 25, 2008 at 3:30 AM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 3:36 AM
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Anyways ... we can argue this all day long, but this thread is not intended for "competting" cities to come on here and agrue against Winnipeg's soon to be constructed inland port.


The fact is this is a Winnipeg thread ... intended to discuss the advancement of Centre Port Canada.


Dave in Edmonton .. please feel free to make your own thread in the Alberta Forum.. and I promise not to take your thread off topic. This thread is not intended to be a pissing match.


If you which to discuss Centre Port Canada here.. please feel free.

Same for any other cities who which to discuss the issue in terms of there own city. Regina formers please feel free to make your own thread and discuss the attributes of grocery store warehouses. I am fine with that as well.

This is the Centre Port Canada (WPG) ... only.
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Last edited by newflyer; Sep 25, 2008 at 4:30 AM.
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  #80  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2008, 4:20 AM
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Here is a very good read for all those who are interested.

Mayor's Trade Council Releases Report

http://www.tourism.winnipeg.mb.ca/work/846/208
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