[Halifax] Gorsebrook Park (1048 Wellington) | 30 m | 10 fl | Completed

[eastcoastal]

Originally Posted by yal

Hey guys,

I am taking this as an opportunity to post my first message. I am currently on a condo hunt and visited the showroom. Project seems to be very high quality but they are asking almost DT Toronto prices. 600-something sqft 1 bedroom + den facing the park is 379k + 36k for parking. I would rather buy Roy at this point.

They're betting that the south end will be more appealing than downtown. If you're buying south end, you can still get a detached house for that price.

If you're buying downtown, I don't think there are many single-family houses left, so condos are where it's at.

For me, if I were in the market for a condo, I'd be right in the middle of downtown. I'd pick a Roy with a city view, which is cheaper and has warmer light than harbour view and comes with great views of the citadel, rather than this building further south. I'm not sure what north end condo pricing is like, but they're in neighbourhoods I'd consider more interesting than south end, with better potential for return on investment... actually, I think downtown is currently undervalued, so either would be a better investment than the south end in my book.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

The discrepancy between home prices and condo prices on the peninsula seems strangely small. 379k plus 36k is 415k, for a one-bedroom apartment. In Toronto, where even a fixer-upper of a house will cost double that or more, sure. But in Halifax, 415k can get you a very decent house on the peninsula.

If they're able to sell units at these prices, good for them, but I don't get it.

I'm not sure of the details here but I'm guessing the units are targeted at older buyers. They generally have money to spend and they value the low maintenance overhead and accessible amenities over having more square footage for the same price. These are people who wouldn't be interested in a house; in a lot of cases they're selling houses and buying condos.

It's impossible to compare apples to apples when looking at houses and condos, but I think it's easy to overlook a better location (right on Gorsebrook) and the amenities, plus the economies of scale that come from sharing the amenities between many units in a larger building. Having your own pool and/or hot tub is a big pain if you're by yourself and isn't something a lot of seniors will want to manage but the cost for a condo building is minimal.

My impression is that Urban Capital knows the market pretty well, and that they have particular demographics and tastes in mind. A lot of people would pick a view of a park over a condo on Barrington. It's just an issue of personal taste.

If downtown Toronto prices are anything like Vancouver then this building isn't even in the same ballpark. You've got to look at more than just square footage; find a similar quality new building in a similar neighbourhood.

[yal]

Oh I forgot to mention that they also have floor premium $5000 per floor starting from 3rd floor I believe. Another $7500 for a locker.

And finally, these are Preview Weekend prices.

[beyeas]

You can't get a single family home for less than $425k right now anywhere south of Quinpool (I just searched viewpoint.ca). I would partly bet that they are aiming for those who want to be in the south end, and walking distance to the hospitals and universities, but can't quite afford to by a single family detached home in the area. Seems like they are priced to be almost exactly just under the cheapest detached home in the area.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by beyeas

You can't get a single family home for less than $425k right now anywhere south of Quinpool (I just searched viewpoint.ca). I would partly bet that they are aiming for those who want to be in the south end, and walking distance to the hospitals and universities, but can't quite afford to by a single family detached home in the area. Seems like they are priced to be almost exactly just under the cheapest detached home in the area.

This seems weird though. I want a detached house south of Quinpool but can't afford it so I buy a condo instead of going one neighbourhood over?

Those are the dynamics you get in American cities where there are rich and poor school districts and you don't want your kids to get stabbed. Hopefully Halifax isn't on that level.

It's interesting comparing that map to Vancouver. In Vancouver, a lot of the demand is speculative and people are mostly buying land. The definitely-not-foreign buyers pay an enormous premium for detached houses on full-sized lots in part of the city. Townhouses on smaller lots are much, much cheaper (even though they are also much rarer) and tear-downs are the same price as good quality houses. In Halifax there doesn't seem to be much difference between a rowhouse or detached house of comparable quality even if the amount of land is a bit different. I expected little saltbox rowhouses in the South End to be a comparative steal but that's not the case.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

This seems weird though. I want a detached house south of Quinpool but can't afford it so I buy a condo instead of going one neighbourhood over?

Those are the dynamics you get in American cities where there are rich and poor school districts and you don't want your kids to get stabbed. Hopefully Halifax isn't on that level.

It's interesting comparing that map to Vancouver. In Vancouver, a lot of the demand is speculative and people are mostly buying land. The definitely-not-foreign buyers pay an enormous premium for detached houses on full-sized lots in part of the city. Townhouses on smaller lots are much, much cheaper (even though they are also much rarer) and tear-downs are the same price as good quality houses. In Halifax there doesn't seem to be much difference between a rowhouse or detached house of comparable quality even if the amount of land is a bit different. I expected little saltbox rowhouses in the South End to be a comparative steal but that's not the case.

It is weird, but also it is partly true! Not on the "don't want to get your kids stabbed" end of the scale admittedly though!

Two things... one is that I have seen numerous people willing to pay a premium just to be "South End" (hence the sliding scale used by real estate agents on parts of the west end being "new south end"). I would say that, much like there is a segment who would gravitate to areas in the north end, there is a segment who want to be in the south end even if that means sacrificing something. Clearly that doesn't hold up as generalization by any means, but I have definitely seen multiple newly hired physicians, for example, who felt that it was important to be south of quinpool. Take that for whatever it is.

The second this I have seen is in fact the issue of schools. I know personally of multiple people who moved simply to get into the Tupper or Lemarchant school districts, dependent on whether they wanted their kids in English or French Immersion, respectively. In fact, there are entire articles written on "The Tupper Effect", where people have said that they are willing to pay extra to get into homes in those school districts. I can think of two cases just in the past year where people I know moved into homes in the district, from elsewhere in Halifax, just to be in that school district even though it meant moving into an older smaller house that needs significant renovation!

I wouldn't entirely discount a "Tupper Effect" like thing going on here. It may not be to avoid your kids getting stabbed, ala other cities, but there is ample evidence for people willing to accept either higher cost or lesser house just be in the south end and associated school districts.


Reading, Writing & Affluence
LAURA FRASER STAFF REPORTER
Published June 21, 2014 - 6:30am

Shrewd homebuyers — and shrewd parents — look at property near prime school districts, something Realtors say will boost the price of a house.

Pam Cherington calls it “the Sir Charles Tupper effect,” referring to an elementary school in south-end Halifax.

The owner of Halifax’s Red Door Realty has seen clients move two or three years before their child can even start school, hoping to position them into a better education.

“That’s an anomaly all on its own, because people will line up to get into that area,” Cherington said. “And, at the end of the day, people don’t know if it’s the best but it’s perceived as the best.”

She cannot put an exact value on a good school district, but said that buyers should expect to pay a premium.

“Those houses, even if they’re not child-conducive, go for more money, because (kids) can go to Sir Charles Tupper.”

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novasco...ting-affluence

[Drybrain]

Sure, but no one is buying a one-bedroom condo unit over concerns about the school their kids will attend.

I understand that people will pay a premium for location, as well as a premium for an all-new building with new appliances, etc, that they expect will go a few years before maintenance is needed. And I understand that some people want a condo, not a house.

But these kinds of discrepancies seem pretty huge nonetheless: On Wellington we have a 600 sq. ft one-bedroom unit selling for more than 400k, after parking is included. A dozen blocks away, just north of Quinpool, you can buy a detached, three-bedroom house with double the square footage, plus a backyard, for 40k less. I don't get that at all.

Comparing condos to houses is tricky, but is it totally apples to oranges? I know that in my price range, I was strongly considering a condo, but a peninsula rowhouse was a better decision, cost-wise. My taxes are a bit higher and the maintenance and renovation costs are more significant, but it also cost a lot less per square foot than any new-build condo I could have bought. Yeah, my kitchen is crappy and dated and I have to fix a basement leak, among other things. But even if I go no-expenses spared on fixing things up, I'll still be spending a lot less money than I would've for this one-bedroom Wellington apartment, and I have a lot more living pace, some nice historic character, and probably an asset less vulnerable to shocks in the real estate market.

Obviously that's just my preference, but how many people really need to be right there in the heart of the deep South End? Perhaps Urban Capital is going for the no-fuss, no-expenses-spared, downsizing South End retiree crowd, but I wonder how big that market really is.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Sure, but no one is buying a one-bedroom condo unit over concerns about the school their kids will attend.

...


Perhaps Urban Capital is going for the no-fuss, no-expenses-spared, downsizing South End retiree crowd, but I wonder how big that market really is.

Yeah you could be right.

I know that on my block, there have been 5 or 6 homes in the past 6 years where the owners were retired and had an empty nest, and decided that having a large older house wasn't for them. Having said that, I think only 1/2 of those were moving into a condo (2 wanted to move to a new construction home on the ocean, one moved to BC, etc).

[JET]

"Comparing condos to houses is tricky, but is it totally apples to oranges? I know that in my price range, I was strongly considering a condo, but a peninsula rowhouse was a better decision, cost-wise. My taxes are a bit higher and the maintenance and renovation costs are more significant, but it also cost a lot less per square foot than any new-build condo I could have bought. Yeah, my kitchen is crappy and dated and I have to fix a basement leak, among other things. But even if I go no-expenses spared on fixing things up, I'll still be spending a lot less money than I would've for this one-bedroom Wellington apartment, and I have a lot more living pace, some nice historic character, and probably an asset less vulnerable to shocks in the real estate market.

Obviously that's just my preference, but how many people really need to be right there in the heart of the deep South End? Perhaps Urban Capital is going for the no-fuss, no-expenses-spared, downsizing South End retiree crowd, but I wonder how big that market really is.[/QUOTE]

I highly recommend hydraulic cement for a basement leak. I used it ten years ago, and it stopped a leak in mid-stream, and not a drop of water since. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjNx952uz0

[Drybrain]

Thansk for the tip! I'll look into it.

As for the Wellington, according to this hilariously poorly written Herald piece, it's apparently more than 50 percent sold already, so there you go. Someone's buying. It does say the cheapest units are in the 200k range, which seems more sensible.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Thansk for the tip! I'll look into it.

As for the Wellington, according to this hilariously poorly written Herald piece, it's apparently more than 50 percent sold already, so there you go. Someone's buying. It does say the cheapest units are in the 200k range, which seems more sensible.

That sponsored content I mean article was hilariously bad.

Can we assume the developer paid for it? At least try to hide the fact that it is advertising?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by portapetey

That sponsored content I mean article was hilariously bad.

Can we assume the developer paid for it? At least try to hide the fact that it is advertising?

Oh yeah, I'm sure Urban Capital paid for it. Home and auto sections of newspapers are full of that kind of sponsored content, though it's usually more clearly marked as such, even online. (And usually not THAT poorly written.)

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Oh yeah, I'm sure Urban Capital paid for it. Home and auto sections of newspapers are full of that kind of sponsored content, though it's usually more clearly marked as such, even online. (And usually not THAT poorly written.)

It almost read like that South Park parody about ShiPaTown I posted a while back...

[OldDartmouthMark]

With the strike at the Herald continuing on, I'm getting the impression that the people writing some of the material aren't actually journalists. Some content is still pretty good IMHO, but a lot of it appears to be quite sketchy: not well written or researched, and in some cases just reprints of information posted elsewhere. The quality of the paper has really gone downhill over the course of the strike.

[yal]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Thansk for the tip! I'll look into it.

As for the Wellington, according to this hilariously poorly written Herald piece, it's apparently more than 50 percent sold already, so there you go. Someone's buying. It does say the cheapest units are in the 200k range, which seems more sensible.

I never even mentioned the cheapest units because they are 400-something sqft studios. And 200k range is actually very close to 300k and you still need to pay 36k if you want parking. I can post the price list later.

[counterfactual]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Thansk for the tip! I'll look into it.

As for the Wellington, according to this hilariously poorly written Herald piece, it's apparently more than 50 percent sold already, so there you go. Someone's buying. It does say the cheapest units are in the 200k range, which seems more sensible.

It's like a 100% advert for the development. It doesn't even say "sponsored content". Pretty bad.

[kph06]

This looks to be a go, the houses were knocked down and there is construction fencing up. Marco look to be the builders, just as they were for Southport.

[kph06]

A crane was half assembled here last night.

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by kph06

A crane was half assembled here last night.

Went by today on the bus. It looks full assembled.

[someone123]

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