Why are Toronto's neighbourhoods so small?

[Docere]

Why does TO have so many 1 or 2 census tract neighborhoods and a Wikipedia page for practically every micro-neighborhood. For example Trinity Bellwoods, Beaonsfield Village, Seaton Village, Dovercourt Park, Regal Heights, Bloor West Village etc.

Meanwhile Vancouver only has 20 non-downtown neighborhoods and the administrative neighborhoods are generally the same as the popularly recognized ones AFAIK.

Just a large number of TO-nerds on Wikipedia and David Dunkelman's real estate guide?

[Docere]

Should rephrase to why TO has so many neighborhoods or small neighborhoods.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Docere

Should rephrase to why TO has so many neighborhoods or small neighborhoods.

Montréal is like Toronto, or Toronto is like Montréal.

for example, in Montréal

Le Sud-Ouest (borough)
population : 78,151 (2016) , 13,52 km2 , 5780/km²
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Sud-Ouest

in fact, it's 6 small neighborhoods,

-Côte-Saint-Paul
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B4te-Saint-Paul
-Saint-Henri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint-Henri,_Montreal
-Petite-Bourgogne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Burgundy
-Griffintown
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffintown
-Pointe-Saint-Charles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointe-Saint-Charles
-Ville-Émard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ville-%C3%89mard

[Docere]

^ Most of these neighborhoods have at least 10,000 in population. Most of the ones I've listed have 5000 or less.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Docere

Why does TO have so many 1 or 2 census tract neighborhoods and a Wikipedia page for practically every micro-neighborhood. For example Trinity Bellwoods, Beaonsfield Village, Seaton Village, Dovercourt Park, Regal Heights, Bloor West Village etc.

Meanwhile Vancouver only has 20 non-downtown neighborhoods and the administrative neighborhoods are generally the same as the popularly recognized ones AFAIK.

Just a large number of TO-nerds on Wikipedia and David Dunkelman's real estate guide?

I don't even know if this is true, but maybe to some extent it's because within Toronto proper (the old city) neighbourhoods were slowly "reclaimed" from their working-class postwar decay and marketed as up-and-coming in small chunks, and names like "Bloor West Village" were needed to distinguish the gentrifying bits from the larger still-unfashionable areas of which they had previously been a part?

[Tosin007]

Originally Posted by Docere

Why does TO have so many 1 or 2 census tract neighborhoods and a Wikipedia page for practically every micro-neighborhood. For example Trinity Bellwoods, Beaonsfield Village, Seaton Village, Dovercourt Park, Regal Heights, Bloor West Village etc.

Meanwhile Vancouver only has 20 non-downtown neighborhoods and the administrative neighborhoods are generally the same as the popularly recognized ones AFAIK.

Just a large number of TO-nerds on Wikipedia and David Dunkelman's real estate guide?

Density most likely. Toronto is a relatively small City for it's Population, in the US most Cities sprawl enormously/ great distances, Toronto not so much & so it's quality of life is better because it's compact & doesn't take nearly as long to get around the City.

[Architype]

Vancouver's neighborhoods are really too large to be called a neighborhood. It takes over half an hour to walk from one side of my "neighborhood" to the other (2.7 km).

[niwell]

Toronto just has really well defined neighbourhoods. Even in the suburbs.

[suburbanite]

I would agree with Niwell that, for some reason I don't know, Toronto has some of the firmest boundaries between neighbourhoods that I've encountered.

You can go from downtown banker-types at University & Queen, to complete hipster/downtown west start-up vibe one block over at Queen & Simcoe. Even in the distant sprawling suburbs, subdivions are distinctly planned and segregated before they are built. Someone from Oakvile could easily tell you the difference between Joshua Creek and the new "Preserve" neighbourhood, despite consisting of the same mcmansions between them.

We tend to completely fill out one area before moving on to the next. Compared tp a city like Atlanta where the sprawl spreads outward like tendrils reaching as far into the untouched greenspace as they can before settling down.

[Pinus]

Could the mods please edit the title of the thread so that NeighboUrhood is spelled properly.

Cheers

[speedog]

Originally Posted by Docere

^ Most of these neighborhoods have at least 10,000 in population. Most of the ones I've listed have 5000 or less.

Ummm, there's nothing unique about Toronto here. Both Edmonton and Calgary have many small neighbourhoods (communities) as well and for Calagry, most of these communities have Wikipedia pages as well. To this end, the community I reside in Calgary has less than 2,300 people in it - there are numerous communities of this size in Calgary, a number that are smaller some significantly so while there are some huge communities as well (Tuscany is nearing 20,000).

[jigglysquishy]

Regina technically has many small neighborhoods as well, but they don't register in the general psyche.

People frequently don't know the name of the neighborhood one over from them.

[speedog]

One thing that is difficult to establish is the actual number of residential communities in any one city - for many cities there just is not a definitive source. The city of Calgary where I reside recognizes 197 or 198 communities but not all of those are true residential communities but other sources would indicate around 205 communities. The city of Vancouver has around 37 communities, the city of Edmonton any where from 200 to 375, the city of Toronto around 140(?).

A lot of this is very dependant on a city's population, it's physical land area and what city defines what a community/neighbourhood. The city of Vancouver at 631,486 people in the 2016 census would obviously have a need for quite a few less communities than the city of Toronto at 2,731,579 people.

Some of Calgary's smallest communities have less than 500 people and these are communities that have been well established for over 50 years. On the flip side, Calgary's largest community is Panorama Hills which clocks in at over 25,000 people.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Could the mods please edit the title of the thread so that NeighboUrhood is spelled properly.

Cheers

Both spellings seem acceptable, even in Canada.

[Elmira Guy]

Originally Posted by Pinus

Could the mods please edit the title of the thread so that NeighboUrhood is spelled properly.

Cheers

Agreed!

[Docere]

Originally Posted by niwell

Toronto just has really well defined neighbourhoods. Even in the suburbs.

I don't know about that, it's hard to think of ones with well-defined boundaries that have stayed consistent over time.

The Annex is one.* Forest Hill (which was a municipality until 1967) is another. But it's hard to think of others as well defined as these.

Then there is Parkdale and Riverdale, which count in the sense that they've existed since the 19th century, and most can pinpoint more or less where they are on the map. But the boundaries are more fuzzy (for instance what used to be north Parkdale is often called Roncesvalles).

Go back say 50 years and you won't find Roncesvalles, Bloor West Village, Harbord Village etc.

One could say "fast growth" or "gentrification." But Vancouver has seen fast growth and gentrification as well, and the neighborhoods haven't really changed, certainly not to the extent in Toronto.

* Yes, there's the realtor creation of the "South Annex" for houses on Robert and Major etc. But the Annex boundaries of Bathurst to Avenue Rd., Bloor to Dupont have been in place for decades and I think the difference between the Annex proper and the "greater Annex" is fairly clear. I've seen documents from the 1950s showing the exact same boundaries.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Docere

...
One could say "fast growth" or "gentrification." But Vancouver has seen fast growth and gentrification as well, and the neighborhoods haven't really changed, certainly not to the extent in Toronto.

...

Vancouver has seen the emergence of some newly defined neighbourhoods in areas of new higher density condo development that didn't really exist before in the same sense; Coal Harbour, Olympic Village/SEFC, Yaletown, and Crosstown are the best examples I can think of.

[Docere]

Right, but outside the downtown peninsula it hasn't changed much - i.e. there's Mount Pleasant, Fairview, Kitsilano, Point Grey etc.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Docere

Right, but outside the downtown peninsula it hasn't changed much - i.e. there's Mount Pleasant, Fairview, Kitsilano, Point Grey etc.

Mostly correct, although there are also new areas being "carved" out of larger ones; South Main, and Cambie Village might be examples?

I think it comes along with densification and gentrification, and any major changes in land use.

[shappy]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don't even know if this is true, but maybe to some extent it's because within Toronto proper (the old city) neighbourhoods were slowly "reclaimed" from their working-class postwar decay and marketed as up-and-coming in small chunks, and names like "Bloor West Village" were needed to distinguish the gentrifying bits from the larger still-unfashionable areas of which they had previously been a part?

Yeah, the BIA movement was probably a factor.

Also immigrant/cultural groups carving out pockets of existing larger neighbourhoods.