North Shore Rapid Transit | Park Royal-Metrotown via 2nd Narrows | BRT/RRT

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Also remember that Brentwood has a rail connection to all of the Tri-Cities and SoF (albeit, with some annoying transfers from Expo to Millennium).

I do know it is part of the plans for the Broadway Extension to bring the Production Way leg all the way back through Brentwood (terminus at Arbutus). However until that happens there isn't a great connection. If you're coming from SoF you've got to connect at Columbia, then Production-Way (or Lougheed) then again at Brentwood. 3 connections versus 1 when you can just take the Expo to Waterfront and get on the Seabus or 1 when you can take the Expo to Metrotown and then connect there.

I think it would be annoying to the point of uselessness. I get the need to bring transit across the IWB, but in theory we need to plan a new bridge for that, whereas the Metrotown to PNE leg we don't need a new bridge.

Phasing will likely have cost drawbacks as you're doubling up on many costs, and when the total pricetag for this project will likely approach $10B+ (especially with a new road bridge included), doing it as one megaproject could have cost savings in the billions versus chopping it up into phases.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If we've got a separate SkyBridge across the Narrows though, we do reduce gridlock because most of the drivers can take the train during the construction phase...

[chowhou]

If cost is a concern, then a line anchored on one end by Metrotown and on the other end by Phibbs Exchange makes perfect sense. North Shore transit will continue to funnel in and out via the R2, the Lynn Valley busses, the Cap University busses, and the Deep Cove busses (not to mention the continuing densification of the Lower Lynn and Maplewood areas); and obviously the Metrotown side will be firmly anchored. Brentwood, BCIT, and the whole employment corridor along Willingdon will be well served, and if a Hastings Line is desired before continuing across the North Shore, then you have the integration ready there too.

[madog222]

Where would an OMC go? South of Dollerton east of the Seymour River or Still Creek look like the only real possibilities to me.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

In theory, Metrotown-Phibbs should be "affordable" enough to be one phase; Phibbs-Park Royal and Metrotown-UBC can come later when there's more budget.

Originally Posted by chowhou

If cost is a concern, then a line anchored on one end by Metrotown and on the other end by Phibbs Exchange makes perfect sense.

IDK about affordable... Metrotown to Phibbs would be ~10 kilometres, will have 8 -10 stations, needs to cross the inlet, and will have to deal with serious grade challenges along Willingdon...

If Broadway costs just under $3 billion, Metrotown to Phibbs will likely be double that, especially after factoring in 10 or 15 years or inflation.

[madog222]

Metrotown-Phibbs would have 5 or 6 stations, not 8-10.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by madog222

Where would an OMC go? South of Dollerton east of the Seymour River or Still Creek look like the only real possibilities to me.

I would rather see the Still Creek Costco or Car Dealerships replaced by an OMC than the scarce port lands that exist on the North Shore.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by madog222

Metrotown-Phibbs would have 5 or 6 stations, not 8-10.

How about a compromise of 7 stations?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I agree that leaving what might be the busiest segment of the line to phase two would be disappointing. But the bridge is the ultimate bottleneck for any bus line between the NS and south of the inlet. If BRT on Willingdon and Marine works well, building rail across the inlet would vastly improve not only the BRT line but also any bus line crossing the IWMB. Also remember that Brentwood has a rail connection to all of the Tri-Cities and SoF (albeit, with some annoying transfers from Expo to Millennium).

No, it’s not.
It’s the same situation with most of the bridges, it’s getting to and from the bridge that’s the problem.



Also, Phibbs only takes 2/5ths or so of bus traffic to and from the North Shore.
The rest is on the First Narrows or Lonsdale.

People from West of Lonsdale are not generally using the First Narrows or SeaBus to go to Metrotown, as it’s faster to use buses to Phibbs even now, and Lonsdale, Lynn Valley, West Van Upper Levels, and Squamish FN/Park Royal are going to be where the most development are in NS in the future.
Most of these are west of Lonsdale.



Also, by that standard, any other connection to SkyTrain has connections to the entire region connected by it. Even Langley does.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

IDK about affordable... Metrotown to Phibbs would be ~10 kilometres, will have 8 -10 stations, needs to cross the inlet, and will have to deal with serious grade challenges along Willingdon...

If Broadway costs just under $3 billion, Metrotown to Phibbs will likely be double that, especially after factoring in 10 or 15 years or inflation.

IMO if it's designed with cost in mind, minimal tunnelling is needed to get from Phibbs to Metrotown. Going north-south, the Skytrain can cross the Inlet in the vicinity of Ingleton while avoiding the water main and tunnel at an angle towards Gilmore. This tunnel only needs to go as far as Willingdon Heights park where the topography and local geography is conducive to a tunnel portal on the east side of Gilmore. After leaving the tunnel, the line can transition onto a viaduct along the west side of Gilmore until crossing the Millennium Line at Gilmore Station. From there the viaduct can veer southeast along Still Creek towards Willingdon where it can continue south along Willingdon south of Highway 1. The Skytrain viaduct can then continue along Willingdon/the edge of BCIT until crossing Deer Lake Parkway where the topography is well suited for another tunnel portal between Price and Grassmere. Then the tunnel can continue uphill until hitting Metrotown, preferably aligned along McKay instead of Willingdon for a better exchange with Metrotown Station. For future expansion, the line should probably continue along Mackay until hitting Imperial and terminating at Imperial and Willingdon, to make construction of a future Imperial/49th/41st line convenient (Central Park can be used as a staging ground for tunnel boring).

One highlight of this alignment I realised is that a great opportunity for an OMC exists in the Burnaby Transit Centre just off Gilmore. A short tunnel over and you have a huge tract of flat land already occupied by CMBC which could be converted to an OMC. Given the fact that Vancouver is already building a massive transit centre in Marpole which will probably absorb some of the busses from this centre (Hamilton has already absorbed a ton of busses from Burnaby), it shouldn't be too painful for the Skytrain to take over this land.

Originally Posted by mcj

How about a compromise of 7 stations?

Phibbs, (Future option for Cambridge), Hastings, (Future option for Parker/Napier/William), Gilmore, Canada Way/Gourd, (Future option for Deer Lake Pkwy), Grange, Metrotown, Ocean View/Imperial/Willingdon?

That's 7 clear choices at the moment with expansion room for 3.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by mcj

How about a compromise of 7 stations?

So to me the obvious first five stations would be: Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Hastings, and Phibbs. After that I can really only see two more possible, a 2nd Hastings station and a Metrotown North station. I don't see either of those as needed. Hastings will be served by it's own BRT line and a single station would probably make for easier constriction (no need to parallel the street) and the Kootenay Loop can be relocated east to Gilmore or wherever the Hastings station will be. A Metrotown North station might make sense say around Bond if Burnaby wants to redesignate the SFH to high density.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

IDK about affordable... Metrotown to Phibbs would be ~10 kilometres, will have 8 -10 stations, needs to cross the inlet, and will have to deal with serious grade challenges along Willingdon...

If Broadway costs just under $3 billion, Metrotown to Phibbs will likely be double that, especially after factoring in 10 or 15 years or inflation.

Originally Posted by mcj

How about a compromise of 7 stations?

The 222 (which the SkyTrain will likely replace) has six: Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Hastings/Willingdon, Kootenay, Phibbs. If BCIT needs two, seven makes sense. That's three elevated stations and four underground at $0.55 billion, and 12 km of grade-separated track at $1,920 bil; even with a SkyBridge/general overhead/inflation/real estate/etc, I'd be surprised if the line makes it to $5-6 billion.

Keep in mind that a large part of the cost creep has been rising property values in the West Side; Broadway was only $1.98 billion in 2014. The only two expensive neighbourhoods along the route are Brentwood and Metrotown (possibly the Heights, but that one's growing much slower), so property acquisition should be lower.

[chowhou]

Here's a semi-fantasy map I quickly drew up that I think makes sense. Yellow squares being stations to be built immediately, black yellow outline squares being future stations, red being above ground alignment, green being below ground alignment, red loop being the OMC. The crossing of the Millennium Line in the Still Creek Area also has space for the opportunity to have the viaducts connect if that is more convenient for maintenance or sharing rolling stock

[Migrant_Coconut]

Makes sense. TransLink's been hinting that they want to cover Brentwood and Burnaby Heights as well though, so you might need more tunneling around Lougheed and a different depot.

BCIT has a fairly underutilized parking lot at the south end of the campus by Deer Lake Parkway - think they'd be open to talks?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The 222 (which the SkyTrain will likely replace) has six: Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Hastings/Willingdon, Kootenay, Phibbs. If BCIT needs two, seven makes sense. That's three elevated stations and four underground at $0.55 billion, and 12 km of grade-separated track at $1,920 bil; even with a SkyBridge/general overhead/inflation/real estate/etc, I'd be surprised if the line makes it to $5-6 billion.

Keep in mind that a large part of the cost creep has been rising property values in the West Side; Broadway was only $1.98 billion in 2014. The only two expensive neighbourhoods along the route are Brentwood and Metrotown (possibly the Heights, but that one's growing much slower), so property acquisition should be lower.

Again, the traffic congestion is getting to Phibbs, not across the bridge.


This will do absolutely nothing to solve the wider congestion in NS unless you can go on Marine, which has to be tunneled all the way from Phibbs to Mission 1 due to elevation changes.
It's the same reason they extended Expo from Scott Road to King George (about 4.3 km, so it's comparable) rather than stopping at Scott Road.

This is about the same length as the Broadway Subway, which would be $3B+ today for a much smaller population that would likely prefer to use Upper Levels if the traffic was slightly better (as I pointed out before).


North Shore Connects isn't even focusing on SkyTrain right now, and is focused on road/arterial improvements and improving the Upper Levels to eventually add bus lanes.

SkyTrain is a 'maybe later' dream they make studies on, but are focused on bus improvements first.


They barely even mention SkyTrain outside that 1 Phase 2 study people keep bringing up.
https://northshoreconnects.ca/burrar...ar-priorities/

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Here's a semi-fantasy map I quickly drew up that I think makes sense. Yellow squares being stations to be built immediately, black yellow outline squares being future stations, red being above ground alignment, green being below ground alignment, red loop being the OMC. The crossing of the Millennium Line in the Still Creek Area also has space for the opportunity to have the viaducts connect if that is more convenient for maintenance or sharing rolling stock

Why are go to Gilmore instead of Brentwood?

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Makes sense. TransLink's been hinting that they want to cover Brentwood and Burnaby Heights as well though, so you might need more tunneling around Lougheed and a different depot.

BCIT has a fairly underutilized parking lot at the south end of the campus by Deer Lake Parkway - think they'd be open to talks?

A Gilmore exchange isn't the best, but it provides decent coverage for the Brentwood Area. I thought about having an exchange at Brentwood Station, but the location of the underground station would make exchanges awkward like at Commercial-Broadway. You have to walk a few hundred feet and change from above ground to below ground. A Gilmore exchange would be a little more compact and convenient and only have one level of difference. Once the Gilmore Place and Buchanan West plans are done, the area should rival Brentwood in gravity. This alignment should be much cheaper too.

I looked at south BCIT and I think the topography is a little crappy for an OMC. It might be viable though.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why are go to Gilmore instead of Brentwood?

It should be much cheaper for almost all of the benefit by avoiding a lot of tunnelling and it will provide access to the Burnaby Transit Centre as an OMC.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

- snip -

"To Phibbs" and "across the bridge" are the same thing. Future alignments notwithstanding (the Phibbs guideway can continue until Heywood, it's pretty flat there), once the SkyTrain's across and there's traffic-free rapid transit over the inlet, then the R2's anchored on its east terminus and bus lanes down Marine/3rd/Main and a RapidBus to Lynn make sense, and all three routes combined help stem a large part of the traffic problem. Then there "just" has to be an extension to Lonsdale and Park Royal, and then the problem's solved almost entirely.

Again, Broadway's main cost creep is from real estate prices in the downtown core and West Side; it was less than $2 billion ten years ago. Suburban Burnaby - aside from Brentwood and Metrotown - has much cheaper land.

NSC is focusing on bus lanes because right now all the RT funding will go to UBCx; once that's done, it's their turn.
Once upon a time, the Arbutus extension and RAV were pipe dreams that only existed in studies. Every single part of Transport 2050 points toward a SkyTrain to Phibbs and Lonsdale via Second Narrows, even the alternative plan that proposed as few SkyTrains as possible; suggesting that it won't happen is borderline doublethink.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by madog222

Metrotown-Phibbs would have 5 or 6 stations, not 8-10.

I guess it depends on the route. In my head I had Metrotown, BCIT, Brentwood, Willingdon/Hastings, something between Gilmore and Boundary, the PNE, and Phibbs, with additional stations or infill provisions at Deer Lake and and Parker. However, if you skip Brentwood as chowhou suggests, or skip the PNE by crossing the inlet sooner your number would be more accurate. I guess it depends on a) how much of Hastings is served (if a separate Hastings line is soon to follow this line you can get away with just one or two interchange stations on Hastings, and b) how much future density Burnaby wants to serve on Willingdon. If we're talking downtown-level 800m spacings you could see stations on Willingdon at Central, Bond, Deer Lake, Canada Way, Lougheed, Parker, and Hastings. And with two large Town Centres and a university campus in between, I'd love the all of the Willingdon line to be built with more future density in mind, not less.

Originally Posted by chowhou

IMO if it's designed with cost in mind, minimal tunnelling is needed to get from Phibbs to Metrotown. Going north-south, the Skytrain can cross the Inlet in the vicinity of Ingleton while avoiding the water main and tunnel at an angle towards Gilmore. This tunnel only needs to go as far as Willingdon Heights park where the topography and local geography is conducive to a tunnel portal on the east side of Gilmore. After leaving the tunnel, the line can transition onto a viaduct along the west side of Gilmore until crossing the Millennium Line at Gilmore Station. From there the viaduct can veer southeast along Still Creek towards Willingdon where it can continue south along Willingdon south of Highway 1. The Skytrain viaduct can then continue along Willingdon/the edge of BCIT until crossing Deer Lake Parkway where the topography is well suited for another tunnel portal between Price and Grassmere. Then the tunnel can continue uphill until hitting Metrotown, preferably aligned along McKay instead of Willingdon for a better exchange with Metrotown Station. For future expansion, the line should probably continue along Mackay until hitting Imperial and terminating at Imperial and Willingdon, to make construction of a future Imperial/49th/41st line convenient (Central Park can be used as a staging ground for tunnel boring).

One highlight of this alignment I realised is that a great opportunity for an OMC exists in the Burnaby Transit Centre just off Gilmore. A short tunnel over and you have a huge tract of flat land already occupied by CMBC which could be converted to an OMC. Given the fact that Vancouver is already building a massive transit centre in Marpole which will probably absorb some of the busses from this centre (Hamilton has already absorbed a ton of busses from Burnaby), it shouldn't be too painful for the Skytrain to take over this land.



Phibbs, (Future option for Cambridge), Hastings, (Future option for Parker/Napier/William), Gilmore, Canada Way/Gourd, (Future option for Deer Lake Pkwy), Grange, Metrotown, Ocean View/Imperial/Willingdon?

That's 7 clear choices at the moment with expansion room for 3.

I understand your reasons for skipping Brentwood but I really hate it

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I understand your reasons for skipping Brentwood but I really hate it

I know it intuitively makes sense to go straight through Brentwood Town Centre and connect at the town centre's central Skytrain Station, but I don't think that the purpose of this line is specifically to get people to and from The Amazing Brentwood. The purpose is more-so to have a solid north-south connection between the North Shore and transit exchanges in Burnaby (as well as connecting transit exchanges within Burnaby) in order to provide regional transit connectivity. People going to or coming from the Tri-Cities connecting northbound or southbound from the Millennium line will not be seriously affected, people coming from or going to New West/SoF/South Burnaby and connecting at Metrotown northbound towards the North Shore will not be affected, the only people that will be affected are people that are going to or from Brentwood Town Centre specifically (not Holdom or Gilmore), which I think will be a small minority of the overall ridership.

If my proposed alignment can get the shovels in the ground a decade earlier, I think it's well worth it.