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  #4581  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2008, 4:47 PM
ScottG ScottG is offline
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Originally Posted by neworleans View Post
I saw the eastside cannery tonight, and i wish i could have gotten pictures because the building is all light up and it changes colors, from orange to yellow to green to blue and to a couple other colors.

i was just going to post that! - itsamazing - ive ALWAYS said that a tower should have lights on it - i thought planet hollywood would do it - it really catches attention and turns the hotel into a sign -

i really would not have thought the 'cannary' would do such a move - its on boulder highway - not really an exciteing spot for a 'freemont' light show - and the cannary is wel the theme is blue collar factory warehouse (LITERALLY)


buts its awsome - the silo tower hotel at night turns into fremont lights! - the entire tower is covered with thick horizontal bands of lights (not neon maybeits LED) - and for now they are maybe testing them becuase it just changes colors - while some bands were off the mark - - but it really catches the eye. they could really have alot of potential with it - depend on the sophistication of lights they installed - they could have an LCD screen visible from miles away! talk about exposure!


i never understood why no hotel has done this yet - think of planet hollywood

what better way to transform the tower into something new - by covering up eerything but the windows with LED - the podium is covered with them. this would just reinforce the whole 'timesquare' feel - AND the tower would be the central peice of the strip now -constantly changeing in color OR even better become a whole sign - either promoting PH or just splashing imagery along the building - i think that would be amazing - that would be visible throught the vally!
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  #4582  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2008, 5:44 PM
laguna laguna is offline
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Condo/Hotels are NO More

The condo/hotel boom in Las Vegas is a trend of the past and will not be a component of any future developments, following is my reasoning:

1. Unhappy buyers and lawsuits at MGM Signature.

2. Trump had a weak opening with layoffs and buyers not closing on units.

3. Fountainbleu not offering condo/hotel units even though they mentioned
them on their website, seems to indicate a change of mind on the concept.

4. Sales stopped on units at Cosmopolitan.

5. Financing virtually unavailable on condo/hotel units.

6. Lawsuits and problems at other condo/hotel projects (ie. Trump Chicago).

7. No real track record of successful condo/hotel concept. It is unproven and a big risk for hotel companies, with class action suits, unhappy owners to deal with.

This is all just speculation and I may be totally wrong. Just my 2 cents.
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  #4583  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2008, 9:01 PM
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Jerry of San Fran Jerry of San Fran is offline
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Las Vegas - City Center A view of the City Center underconstruction as seen from the Excalibar Hotel taken from my room on the 19th floor in July 2008.

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  #4584  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2008, 7:26 PM
Jake2006 Jake2006 is offline
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Laguna;

Just wondering what your source was for the unhappy buyers and lawsuits at the Signature. I wanted to read the article.
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  #4585  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2008, 10:48 PM
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  #4586  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 12:04 AM
laguna laguna is offline
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Unhappy MGM Signature buyers.

There have been several articles on it, here is one.

Las Vegas Sun
August 4, 2008


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Seeing no profits, condo owners sue
At issue: What hotel unit buyers were promised
By Liz Benston

Fri, Jan 4, 2008 (midnight)

Nevada's biggest Strip developer is embroiled in a dispute with mom-and-pop investors that offers a cautionary, buyer-beware tale involving the sale of high-rise residential units.

At issue: whether the developer insinuated that ownership of the Strip-front units would bring big profits.

In 2002, MGM Mirage partnered with Turnberry Associates, a major developer of condominium towers, to build a condo-hotel -- an animal new to Las Vegas but familiar to high-rise dwellers in other resort locales.

Some owners reside in the units part time and hope to make money by offering them for rent to outsiders, through a management company, the rest of the time.

The project, eventually called Signature, stirred potential investors and real estate watchers. Owning a piece of the Strip, with the backing of MGM Mirage, seemed like a sure thing.

Sales of the Signature units have generated more than $200 million in profit for 50 percent partner MGM Mirage.

But they have been a money-losing proposition for buyers with hefty mortgage payments.

With maintenance fees topping $1,000 a month plus mortgage payments on units, many of which sold for between $600,000 and $800,000, some buyers are paying thousands of dollars a month for their units without sufficient rental income to offset their costs.

Although rooms in Strip casinos continue to command rates in the hundreds of dollars a night, Signature rooms have generally rented for less than $200 a night -- not enough to cover monthly expenses on the units.

More than 40 Signature owners, of about 1,640, have sued the developers for fraud, saying they were lured to buy the units by promises of net profits generated by rental income. In some cases, they said, sales agents told buyers they could expect to charge room rates comparable to those of luxury Strip resorts and that the value of their units would likely increase as future towers were built and sold.

“Had they told us upfront that they couldn't guarantee a nickel of income, not one investor would have looked at this as a good idea,” said Rory Agnello, a real estate broker and Las Vegas resident who bought two studios in the first of Signature's three condo towers in 2004. “Instead, they took the Campbell's soup approach, saying ‘Trust us, this will make money.' In truth, these things have been disastrous.”

A Turnberry Associates attorney notes that, high in the sales contract, buyers are warned not to rely on oral representations.

Agnello says his studios have rented for an average of $175 a night -- much less than the $400 a night he expected based on “comparable” luxury rooms on the Strip.

Owners receive 60 percent of the nightly rent, which is actually closer to half when fees and taxes are factored in, he said.

Agnello says his studios sometimes fetch as little as $99 a night through the front office, which is good for hotel occupancy and filling the casino but attracts bargain hunters, some of whom have “destroyed” the well-appointed rooms, going so far as to steal bedding.

“They care about occupancy. They want people spending money at MGM Grand,” Agnello said of MGM Mirage and Turnberry.

Steve Morris, the developers' attorney, said owners should have carefully read their sales contracts.

“This was a straightforward condo purchase drafted and reviewed in accordance with state law. There are no promises made anywhere in the contract.”

Disclaimers in sales contracts make it difficult for buyers to win a lawsuit, even in the case of overzealous marketing reps intent on closing deals, said Jared Beck, a Miami attorney who specializes in condo disputes.

“It's definitely fraud to tell somebody a material fact that's not true in order to get them to sign a purchase agreement,” Beck said. “However, if you orally make a promise of something that may or may not happen in the future, that's when things get muddy.”

As a rule, room rates aren't guaranteed because they vary with supply and demand, he said.

Tara Young, a Las Vegas real estate attorney who isn't involved in the case, said developers with disclaimers in their contracts can still get in trouble with regulators if they emphasize condos as a moneymaking investment opportunity.

State and federal securities rules require developers to register condos as an investment vehicle if they are primarily marketed that way. That process is onerous and involves issuing a voluminous prospectus similar to that required of public stock offerings. Developers can get around this requirement by prohibiting their sales agents from emphasizing rental income as an incentive to buy condominiums. Those who violate these rules can be required to pay restitution to buyers, including what they paid for the units plus interest, Young said.

While Young declined to discuss specifics of the case, she said it could, regardless of the outcome, lead developers to be more careful about how they pitch their products.

Attorneys say the suit is unusual among numerous condo disputes because it involves not failed projects or abandoned sales contracts but representations made prior to signing contracts.

Morris denies the units were sold as investments. The investment rules for condos are well-known and are included as a disclaimer in the contract, he said.

Young said developers might not have been as careful about the securities requirements a few years ago during the condo boom, when speculators were able to make money merely by flipping their units a few months after purchase.

“During the condominium boom people were less concerned about the technicalities because everyone was making money,” she said. “Now that projections aren't coming in as people planned some are going to be looking at legal ways to get out of their contracts.”

Joel Greene, a Miami broker who has been marketing condo-hotel units for more than five years, blames the rash of condo disputes on buyer greed, enabled by aggressive marketing.

“Instead of riding out a long-term investment that will probably be OK, some buyers are looking for their attorneys to bail them out,” he said.

Condo rentals “are intended to offset the costs of maintaining a second home” rather than to make a profit, he said. “If you're looking for cash flow, call your stockbroker.”

Greene says many brokers, in their zeal to close a sale, haven't been as forthcoming.

At Signature, units in subsequent towers sold for $100,000 more than similarly sized units in the first tower sold for just months earlier.

But nightly rental rates didn't rise along with prices, squeezing more recent buyers hardest.

“This problem has nothing to do with the housing market, Agnello said. “It has to do with a bad marketing program. They sold units at the wrong prices to the wrong people.”

Liz Benston can be reached at 259-4077 or at benston@lasvegassun.com.

Discussion: 1 comment so far…
By mojiade
1/18/08 at 6:30 p.m.
Suggest removal I would like to join this class action lawsuit as I am one of the disgruntled MGM owners.Any leads would be much appreciated
Moji
3014420436
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  #4587  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 1:49 AM
Aaron Auxier Aaron Auxier is offline
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Fantastic shot of Vdara mdiederi!
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  #4588  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 1:59 AM
Jake2006 Jake2006 is offline
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Thanks laguna. Sure sounds like a mess. I have to say though that I've been coming to Vegas for 40 years and rarely have paid $400/Night. Except for a few of the mid strip higher end properties, I don't know of any that command that type of rate throughout the year. Even Wynn and Bellagio have rates lower than that at various times. And the Signature is not really even on the strip. I'm not sure how they expected to command that type of rate.

If I read the article correctly, out of 1640 units sold, only 40 are involved in law suits. I would like to know if the other 1600 owners are unhappy with their purchase. People buy condo hotel units for different reasons. While some buy to flip and make a quick profit, others buy for the convenience of having a second home in a desirable area of the county.

I think condo hotels have their place but I don't think people should buy with the idea of making a lot of short time profit. If they are looking to flip the investment (especially in this type of economy), I think they are taking (or took) an unacceptable risk. In the long run, however, I think they are here to stay.
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  #4589  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 3:34 AM
ScottG ScottG is offline
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remember the MOON resort?

check this out! www.moonworldresorts.com

looks like they are serious (or just crazy)

also heres a 10 min presentation on the thing -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75DpUH_4Ww

bigger than disney world - and totaly a product of the 90s - but i didnt see any evidence of this actually being meant for vegas?
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  #4590  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 6:47 AM
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Moon!

A couple of Veer.



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  #4591  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
remember the MOON resort?

check this out! www.moonworldresorts.com

looks like they are serious (or just crazy)

also heres a 10 min presentation on the thing -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g75DpUH_4Ww

bigger than disney world - and totaly a product of the 90s - but i didnt see any evidence of this actually being meant for vegas?

That's an old video of a long dead proposal
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  #4592  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 12:55 PM
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Why would it be so horrible for Echelon to break up the project into phases? Out here in LA, the LA Live complex technically got started a decade ago with the completion of the Staple Center. That's regarded as being the first phase and with it's success paved the way for the Nokia Theater opening last year and this year will bring much more including ESPN's West coast broadcasting center with the Ritz Carlton rounding it out in 2010. I think if Echelon went ahead with phases and continued with what they can handle during this tough time, it would be beneficial for everyone. Seems better than letting a bunch of steel stick out of the ground for the next year.
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  #4593  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 2:46 PM
RandalR RandalR is offline
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Originally Posted by DowntownGymRat View Post
I think if Echelon went ahead with phases and continued with what they can handle during this tough time, it would be beneficial for everyone. Seems better than letting a bunch of steel stick out of the ground for the next year.
I suspect Boyd does not actually have enough money to keep going - their stated reason for stopping construction is just for public consumption. Another few months of work and they would be bankrupt.

Otherwise, it would make sense to do as you suggest and build the project in phases, but stopping allows them to tell their shareholders a plausible story that they are conserving cash until times are better. Then in a year or so they can announce that construction will not resume and the lot is for sale, and they won't take the same hit to their share price that they would take if they admitted that today.
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  #4594  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 3:46 PM
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Originally Posted by RandalR View Post
I suspect Boyd does not actually have enough money to keep going - their stated reason for stopping construction is just for public consumption. Another few months of work and they would be bankrupt.
I think it's more like the banks are going bankrupt. Boyd made a billion dollars profit last year, they have plenty of cash to service the loan. But the banks wanted to change the terms on the already approved loan for Boyd's part of the project, and the banks couldn't come up with any money for the joint venture parts of Echelon. The reason is because the banks don't have any money after losing it all in the subprime mortgage quagmire. It's a national problem, not a Las Vegas problem.

Anyway, MGM just announced that they have secured half of the remaining financing for CityCenter...two months late (they still need more though). Maybe the Echelon delay freed up some bank money.
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  #4595  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 4:07 PM
Jake2006 Jake2006 is offline
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  #4596  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 5:38 PM
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Investors were so elated that MGM secured $1.65 billion for CityCenter that the 69 percent decrease in quarterly profit was a little more than an expected footnote.

I think CityCenter will be great for MGM, despite all current hazy outlooks.

In the latest quarterly figures, Bellagio and Mandalay Bay actually held increased earnings from a year ago, indicating that the high-end market is much more resilient. Figures from Wynn were also in similar capacity.

With projects like Echelon and The Plaza delayed or on hold, a large focus will be placed on CityCenter being the next big thing and I don't think it could disappoint tourists. It's huge, high-end, over-the-top, and a density that's never been done on the strip. I'm glad its one project that's actually getting built to its full standard, because the $11 billion design would never pass in today's climate.
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  #4597  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2008, 8:42 PM
DrT DrT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laguna View Post
The condo/hotel boom in Las Vegas is a trend of the past and will not be a component of any future developments, following is my reasoning:

1. Unhappy buyers and lawsuits at MGM Signature.

2. Trump had a weak opening with layoffs and buyers not closing on units.

3. Fountainbleu not offering condo/hotel units even though they mentioned
them on their website, seems to indicate a change of mind on the concept.

4. Sales stopped on units at Cosmopolitan.

5. Financing virtually unavailable on condo/hotel units.

6. Lawsuits and problems at other condo/hotel projects (ie. Trump Chicago).

7. No real track record of successful condo/hotel concept. It is unproven and a big risk for hotel companies, with class action suits, unhappy owners to deal with.

This is all just speculation and I may be totally wrong. Just my 2 cents.
Excellent point.
The new formula should be, as the old, condos AND hotels, not condo-hotels.
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  #4598  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2008, 8:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake2006 View Post
Thanks laguna. Sure sounds like a mess. I have to say though that I've been coming to Vegas for 40 years and rarely have paid $400/Night. Except for a few of the mid strip higher end properties, I don't know of any that command that type of rate throughout the year. Even Wynn and Bellagio have rates lower than that at various times. And the Signature is not really even on the strip. I'm not sure how they expected to command that type of rate.

If I read the article correctly, out of 1640 units sold, only 40 are involved in law suits. I would like to know if the other 1600 owners are unhappy with their purchase. People buy condo hotel units for different reasons. While some buy to flip and make a quick profit, others buy for the convenience of having a second home in a desirable area of the county.

I think condo hotels have their place but I don't think people should buy with the idea of making a lot of short time profit. If they are looking to flip the investment (especially in this type of economy), I think they are taking (or took) an unacceptable risk. In the long run, however, I think they are here to stay.
I am very happy with my Signature suite!
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  #4599  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2008, 12:21 AM
Jake2006 Jake2006 is offline
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Originally Posted by bluejudad View Post
I am very happy with my Signature suite!
Good to hear that. You hear so many negative comments and news you begin to wonder if everyone is unhappy. Of course, if some were deliberately misled then they should have the right to redress. By the way, in the MGM conference call yesterday they said all of the 1700 Signature units have been sold and that 54% of all units at City Center have been sold including 17 in Dubai.
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  #4600  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2008, 1:53 PM
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Some people are still betting on the future of Vegas. In the past couple months a company called Sapir TIC LLC bought the 58-acre former W site next door to the Hard Rock from Africa Israel Investments and Edge Resorts for $12.8 million per acre.

http://www.globest.com/news/1213_121.../172836-1.html
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