MEMPHIS | Development News

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by Chris Warren

IF Memphis were to be Granted an MLS Team it may lead to plans of a new Football Stadium or Real Deal Renovation of the Liberty Bowl if the Tigers will share it with them .

The problem with that is that the soccer seating capacity would be too small for the UM to share a facility with. They are reducing stadium capacities to around 20,000 per. The UM needs at least 40,000 or more. Last year they drew in over 30,000 a game.

That being said, the city could work with the MLS and owners to build a open-air stadium that could hold up to 50,000 for football and cover the upper deck with sheilders (not tarps) to make the stadium look more intimate and smaller for soccer crowds. Below is a rendering of the new Atlanta Falcons stadium concept for football and it's new MLS soccer team.

Soccer


Football

[Chris Warren]

New $62M student recreation and fitness center coming to University of Memphis

Memphis Business Journal

The University of Memphis is moving forward on construction of its new $62 million student recreation and fitness center.

The 192,500-square-foot facility will be located along Southern Avenue north of the existing Student Recreation and Fitness Center, and is expected to be open in 2018. Construction will be done in three phases. It will be funded by a $307 student fee increase that will take effect in the 2014-15 school year. In addition to the recreation center, a $24 million parking garage and $18 million land bridge connecting the facility with the northern part of the campus are also in the planning stages.

The facility will feature a main four-court divisible gym, six racquetball courts, a multi-purpose fitness center with a climbing wall, a natatorium with a recreational pool and lane pool. It will also have an outdoor leisure pool, lockers, classrooms and training rooms, a two-court gym, a quarter-mile indoor track, a wellness and nutrition area, juice bar, offices and large group exercise areas. The outdoor part of the facility will have three full-size turf fields, basketball courts and tennis courts.

“The Student Recreation and Fitness Center has become a vital part of students’ lives and health on our campus, and vividly demonstrates the mind-body connection,” Rosie Phillips Bingham, vice president for student affairs, said. “Our students like that sense of connection; they like using the rec center and they wanted a center that was up-to-date and provides more room for the growing numbers of students who use the facility. I believe they will be very pleased with the new, modern recreation center.”

[Trevor Birchett]

Hate to interrupt the MLS conversation...but we've got some breaking news on 100 North Main...

Hotel commits to 100 N. Main as developer faces questions
Memphis Business Journal
June 23, 2014
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...per-faces.html

Yitzchok "Isaac" Thomas, managing principal of One Hundred North Main LLC, told me today that InterContinental Hotels Group has committed to opening a 171-room Hotel Indigo in the 38-story, 792,873-square-foot building at 100 N. Main in Downtown.

Thomas, who bought the building in August 2013, is moving forward with plans to renovate the building for the hotel and 266 high-end apartment units. He's already moved the building's tenants out with hopes to begin renovations this year, with a target opening date in late 2015 or early 2016. And in a couple of weeks, he said, he'll have another announcement about a "major milestone" of the project.

[Chris Warren]

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

The problem with that is that the soccer seating capacity would be too small for the UM to share a facility with. They are reducing stadium capacities to around 20,000 per. The UM needs at least 40,000 or more. Last year they drew in over 30,000 a game.

That being said, the city could work with the MLS and owners to build a open-air stadium that could hold up to 50,000 for football and cover the upper deck with sheilders (not tarps) to make the stadium look more intimate and smaller for soccer crowds. Below is a rendering of the new Atlanta Falcons stadium concept for football and it's new MLS soccer team.

Soccer


Football

Yeah I had put that up tried to changed after I realized that no NFL Team currently shares a Stadium with a MLS Team

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Chris Warren

IF Memphis were to be Granted an MLS Team it may lead to plans of a new Football Stadium or Real Deal Renovation of the Liberty Bowl if the Tigers will share it with them .

That's the trickiest part of all of it. The LBMS's field dimensions aren't big enough for a soccer field. As much as I wish they would build one, the UofM is continually looking past an on campus stadium. I enjoy games at the LBMS and think that is a fine venue, especially with the recent upgrades, but I think it would help the UofM out tremendously if they had an on campus stadium. As it is now, there's no reason for alumni to actually come back to campus. The only way I see it working out without the City being on the hook for money is if the UofM build an on campus football stadium that allowed an MLS team to play there. This won't ever be an issue from both sides of that equation.

From a City standpoint, they would have a hard time convincing anyone that a new smaller stadium specific for an MLS team is a good idea. They would either have to build a stadium large enough for the Liberty Bowl and SHC (50,000 or a little more) with enough suites or build a smaller stadium (18-20,000) just for the MLS team and then focus on operating two stadiums.

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

That is true, but they are expected to get one of the last remaining spots. St Louis, Queens, and OKC are all said to be in the running. Memphis was mentioned as a potential candidate on a blog recently.

Memphis' chances will improve if the MLS decides to expand further to 30-32 teams which is possible with the high demand for expansion teams across America.

Do you have a link to this blog? I seriously have never heard anything about Memphis or OKC getting expansion teams. The Queens team is NYC FC that will be playing in Yankee Stadium. I don't know if they're still planning on the construction of a new soccer stadium near Citi Field or not.

STL has failed with two bids to get expansion teams. I don't know if they'll continue.

[MEMFLY]

Originally Posted by Trevor Birchett

Hate to interrupt the MLS conversation...but we've got some breaking news on 100 North Main...

Hotel commits to 100 N. Main as developer faces questions
Memphis Business Journal
June 23, 2014
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...per-faces.html

Just when I thought this thing was dead, it looks like MBJ finally got through to him to get an interview.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by Chris Warren

I Wonder will team be able to play at the Liberty Bowl for temporary

No. The design is too narrow and the field isn't wide enough. If Memphis were to ever get a team they would have to agree on the building of a new stadium first to have ready in time for the team's inaugural season. This is what Atlanta is doing. They won't start play until the new Falcons stadium is built, set to open in summer 2017.

Most MLS stadiums cost around $60-100 million on average. A few have gone up to as much as $200 million in NY for Red Bull Arena which is an open-air stadium of 25,000 seats.

Memphis doesn't need anything big. A simple 19,500-seat stadium would be perfect for a smaller market like Memphis. Real Salt Lake City's stadium only seats 20,213. Below is an image of the Real SL Stadium.





Here's another stadium small enough for the size of Memphis. Pizza Hut Park in Firsco, TX seats 21,500. They held the D2 national championship football game there last year.





Pizza Hut Park was built in 2005 for only $80 million. ($96 million in 2014 dollars) And that's in Dallas, Texas market, meaning a stadium of 19,500 could be built for much less in Memphis. Plus, it would add more restaurants and shops in downtown and create a second and more modern entertainment district to compliment Beale Street. It would be perfect as part of a redevelopment of the South Main district just south of the FedEx Forum where there would be plenty of room for parking and growth for future development, say a new convention center. It would also create new jobs and demand in downtown.

Think BIG, Memphis!

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

That's the trickiest part of all of it. The LBMS's field dimensions aren't big enough for a soccer field. As much as I wish they would build one, the UofM is continually looking past an on campus stadium. I enjoy games at the LBMS and think that is a fine venue, especially with the recent upgrades, but I think it would help the UofM out tremendously if they had an on campus stadium. As it is now, there's no reason for alumni to actually come back to campus. The only way I see it working out without the City being on the hook for money is if the UofM build an on campus football stadium that allowed an MLS team to play there. This won't ever be an issue from both sides of that equation.

From a City standpoint, they would have a hard time convincing anyone that a new smaller stadium specific for an MLS team is a good idea. They would either have to build a stadium large enough for the Liberty Bowl and SHC (50,000 or a little more) with enough suites or build a smaller stadium (18-20,000) just for the MLS team and then focus on operating two stadiums.



Do you have a link to this blog? I seriously have never heard anything about Memphis or OKC getting expansion teams. The Queens team is NYC FC that will be playing in Yankee Stadium. I don't know if they're still planning on the construction of a new soccer stadium near Citi Field or not.

STL has failed with two bids to get expansion teams. I don't know if they'll continue.

The blog mentioning Memphis. http://onthefire.com/2013/01/09/mls-...ake-it-happen/

Here's a blog article about a STL group trying to land a MLS franchise as of earlier this year. http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dai...usl_glavin.php

Memphis needs to start up a support group of its own and get the ball rolling. No pun intended.

P.S. if STL doesn't get a team, that opens the door for Memphis even more because there wouldn't be a nearby team outside of KC and Dallas. There's definitely a market for Memphis and MLS.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Trevor Birchett

Hotel commits to 100 N. Main as developer faces questions
Memphis Business Journal
June 23, 2014
http://www.bizjournals.com/memphis/n...per-faces.html

That's pretty good. What's that like 1/3 of the building? I'm gonna be careful not too get overly excited about this, but it is promising that this news is out right now, especially after the tax and fraud situation...unless the hotel agreed to come on board and he wanted to save this info as damage control/repair after the tax and fraud info came out. Either way, it's good to know.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

The blog mentioning Memphis. http://onthefire.com/2013/01/09/mls-...ake-it-happen/

Memphis needs to start up a support group of its own and get the ball rolling. No pun intended.

P.S. if STL doesn't get a team, that opens the door for Memphis even more because there wouldn't be a nearby team outside of KC and Dallas. There's definitely a market for Memphis and MLS.

A blog is all that would say. That's financially unfeasible, especially asking cities to build MLS ready stadiums playing in a relegation league. It seems to me like he just got a list of the top 50 cities by population in the US and added most of the ones without a team to that list. There's no rhyme or reason why he has Memphis on there, especially since he cites his train of thought for creating that list with cities that already have NASL and USL clubs.

Once again you have to look at the population numbers. STL has a CSA of 2.9 with an MSA of 2.7 compared to Memphis' 1.3. That's a huge difference. A league isn't going to sacrifice roughly 1.5 million is population support to save a "regional" audience.

[DoomJ]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

A blog is all that would say. That's financially unfeasible, especially asking cities to build MLS ready stadiums playing in a relegation league. It seems to me like he just got a list of the top 50 cities by population in the US and added most of the ones without a team to that list. There's no rhyme or reason why he has Memphis on there, especially since he cites his train of thought for creating that list with cities that already have NASL and USL clubs.

Once again you have to look at the population numbers. STL has a CSA of 2.9 with an MSA of 2.7 compared to Memphis' 1.3. That's a huge difference. A league isn't going to sacrifice roughly 1.5 million is population support to save a "regional" audience.

There was a market saturation study published a couple years ago (I tried to find it but have not been successful yet) that rated a number of metropolitan areas on population, income, major sports (NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS) franchises, and whether or not they could feasibly support their current franchises, and if so, whether they could feasibly handle an additional (or more) franchise and from what league.

I seem to remember St. Louis and Nashville classified as "oversaturated." This same study suggested Memphis could feasibly support the Grizzlies, and additionally, an MLS franchise. MLS was the only additional major sports franchise Memphis could feasibly support.

That being said, I can't find the study, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. Another thing to keep in mind regarding MLS and St. Louis, St. Louis is a traditional center of soccer in the United States. Everyone talks about "that time" when the United States was more of a power house in soccer in the early days, when they beat England 1-0 and came in 3rd at the World Cup. That national team was a largely St. Louis squad.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by DoomJ

There was a market saturation study published a couple years ago (I tried to find it but have not been successful yet) that rated a number of metropolitan areas on population, income, major sports (NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS) franchises, and whether or not they could feasibly support their current franchises, and if so, whether they could feasibly handle an additional (or more) franchise and from what league.

I seem to remember St. Louis and Nashville classified as "oversaturated." This same study suggested Memphis could feasibly support the Grizzlies, and additionally, an MLS franchise. MLS was the only additional major sports franchise Memphis could feasibly support.

That being said, I can't find the study, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. Another thing to keep in mind regarding MLS and St. Louis, St. Louis is a traditional center of soccer in the United States. Everyone talks about "that time" when the United States was more of a power house in soccer in the early days, when they beat England 1-0 and came in 3rd at the World Cup. That national team was a largely St. Louis squad.

You are correct! I remember seeing that posted on the MemphisTigers.Org forum a while back. It was a rough draft and somewhat blury, but you could read what it said for Memphis. Also, Memphis is ranked the 15th largest US city yet cities smaller have multiple sports franchises.

You have to remember another thing. Most of the visitors to Graceland and to Memphis come from overseas. That's where soccer is the #1 sport and having a team in Memphis would almost guarantee visitors attending the games while in town because of the love of the sport. The former NBA commissioner David Stern once said that the huge tourism of Graceland played a big role in the NBA's decision to move the team from Vancouver to Memphis. I'm just saying.

[MEMFLY]

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

You are correct! I remember seeing that posted on the MemphisTigers.Org forum a while back. It was a rough draft and somewhat blury, but you could read what it said for Memphis. Also, Memphis is ranked the 15th largest US city yet cities smaller have multiple sports franchises.

You have to remember another thing. Most of the visitors to Graceland and to Memphis come from overseas. That's where soccer is the #1 sport and having a team in Memphis would almost guarantee visitors attending the games while in town because of the love of the sport. The former NBA commissioner David Stern once said that the huge tourism of Graceland played a big role in the NBA's decision to move the team from Vancouver to Memphis. I'm just saying.

Needless to say someone (Other than the city) needs to pony up the money, and it would be quite a feet and most likely more expensive to build a stadium in say, south main compared to somewhere out here in Desoto County next to where I-69 is coming through.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by DoomJ

There was a market saturation study published a couple years ago (I tried to find it but have not been successful yet) that rated a number of metropolitan areas on population, income, major sports (NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, MLS) franchises, and whether or not they could feasibly support their current franchises, and if so, whether they could feasibly handle an additional (or more) franchise and from what league.

I seem to remember St. Louis and Nashville classified as "oversaturated." This same study suggested Memphis could feasibly support the Grizzlies, and additionally, an MLS franchise. MLS was the only additional major sports franchise Memphis could feasibly support.

That being said, I can't find the study, but I'll keep my eyes peeled. Another thing to keep in mind regarding MLS and St. Louis, St. Louis is a traditional center of soccer in the United States. Everyone talks about "that time" when the United States was more of a power house in soccer in the early days, when they beat England 1-0 and came in 3rd at the World Cup. That national team was a largely St. Louis squad.

I've seen the one you're talking about, but I haven't been able to find it. Here's one that I found that suggests that Memphis can't support the Grizzlies, but can support an MLS franchise. From a numbers run down there are many metro area's that support their various franchises well, but according to this study, they can't. One thing that plays into the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL markets are the huge tv contracts for the league which support smaller markets.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/10/31/co...m-a-good-home/

For comparison, this study says that ATL can support an NHL franchise, while Winnipeg can't. I don't know if very many of you follow the NHL or not, but that in itself could tell how accurate this is.

[DoomJ]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

I've seen the one you're talking about, but I haven't been able to find it. Here's one that I found that suggests that Memphis can't support the Grizzlies, but can support an MLS franchise. From a numbers run down there are many metro area's that support their various franchises well, but according to this study, they can't. One thing that plays into the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL markets are the huge tv contracts for the league which support smaller markets.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/10/31/co...m-a-good-home/

For comparison, this study says that ATL can support an NHL franchise, while Winnipeg can't. I don't know if very many of you follow the NHL or not, but that in itself could tell how accurate this is.

Ah- that's the one I was talking about- it's not suggesting we can't support the Grizzlies, its asking if we can support a NEW professional franchise in the market given what we already have- which is why there is a "No" under the NBA and a "Yes" under the MLS.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

I've seen the one you're talking about, but I haven't been able to find it. Here's one that I found that suggests that Memphis can't support the Grizzlies, but can support an MLS franchise. From a numbers run down there are many metro area's that support their various franchises well, but according to this study, they can't. One thing that plays into the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL markets are the huge tv contracts for the league which support smaller markets.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/10/31/co...m-a-good-home/

For comparison, this study says that ATL can support an NHL franchise, while Winnipeg can't. I don't know if very many of you follow the NHL or not, but that in itself could tell how accurate this is.

Atlanta did have an NHL team but it moved due to the lack of support. The Hawks have the worst support of any team in the NBA. The Braves attendance has been down the past few years despite being a playoff team. The Falcons are the only pro team in ATL that has steady fan support win or lose.

But my argument would be this. Memphis has and supports the NBA Grizzlies with passion. But does not have competition with another pro sports team in the city to challenge for fan support and city dollars. Memphis Redbirds are minor league baseball and the UM basketball does not count. Those ticket prices are not of a pro sports team. MLS has the lowest ticket prices of any major league sport which is why Memphis, despite a limited budget already, could still support both the Grizzlies and a MLS team.

Despite always being a football town, Memphis will never get an NFL franchise. That boat has unfortunately sailed and ain't coming back, thanks to Nashville. If they do, it'll be decades from now. And that would mean Nashville either loses its team or the NFL goes bunkers and expands to 40 teams.

MLB wouldn't be able to make it in Memphis because of high ticket prices. Plus the city would have to commit to a near billion dollar baseball specific stadium. Besides, Memphis ain't a true baseball town.

The NHL won't go to Memphis because, well, it's the whitest sport there is and Memphis ain't a white town. You have to know where your dollar is coming from.

That leaves the MLS. A major sports league that is blowing up to new heights. If Memphis doesn't get a MLS franchise, then they will never see another pro sports team call the bluff city their home. And that's really sad considering how large Memphis really is.

The big city that couldn't.

[DoomJ]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

I've seen the one you're talking about, but I haven't been able to find it. Here's one that I found that suggests that Memphis can't support the Grizzlies, but can support an MLS franchise. From a numbers run down there are many metro area's that support their various franchises well, but according to this study, they can't. One thing that plays into the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL markets are the huge tv contracts for the league which support smaller markets.

http://wagesofwins.com/2011/10/31/co...m-a-good-home/

For comparison, this study says that ATL can support an NHL franchise, while Winnipeg can't. I don't know if very many of you follow the NHL or not, but that in itself could tell how accurate this is.

Oh, and as far as that last point, this is a strictly by-the-numbers chart. Obviously it can't account for culture. NHL, on paper, can work in Atlanta, and on paper, is too much for Winnipeg. But, Atlanta is a hockey vacuum, while hockey is the official religion of Winnipeg- which is why it works there.

Also makes sense when looking at major league baseball in Milwaukee. On paper, a horrible idea. But, the team has a long history with the place and is well-ingrained in the local culture, so it works.

[arkitekte]

Originally Posted by DoomJ

Ah- that's the one I was talking about- it's not suggesting we can't support the Grizzlies, its asking if we can support a NEW professional franchise in the market given what we already have- which is why there is a "No" under the NBA and a "Yes" under the MLS.

I gotcha. I might have been confusing this one with another one that I found two or so years ago (maybe it was posted on UP) that was taking into account if a city could support a team regardless of the current situation. I want to think that only 10 or cities could on paper support all their teams.

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

Atlanta did have an NHL team but it moved due to the lack of support. The Hawks have the worst support of any team in the NBA. The Braves attendance has been down the past few years despite being a playoff team. The Falcons are the only pro team in ATL that has steady fan support win or lose.

But my argument would be this. Memphis has and supports the NBA Grizzlies with passion. But does not have competition with another pro sports team in the city to challenge for fan support and city dollars. Memphis Redbirds are minor league baseball and the UM basketball does not count. Those ticket prices are not of a pro sports team. MLS has the lowest ticket prices of any major league sport which is why Memphis, despite a limited budget already, could still support both the Grizzlies and a MLS team.

Despite always being a football town, Memphis will never get an NFL franchise. That boat has unfortunately sailed and ain't coming back, thanks to Nashville. If they do, it'll be decades from now. And that would mean Nashville either loses its team or the NFL goes bunkers and expands to 40 teams.

MLB wouldn't be able to make it in Memphis because of high ticket prices. Plus the city would have to commit to a near billion dollar baseball specific stadium. Besides, Memphis ain't a true baseball town.

The NHL won't go to Memphis because, well, it's the whitest sport there is and Memphis ain't a white town. You have to know where your dollar is coming from.

That leaves the MLS. A major sports league that is blowing up to new heights. If Memphis doesn't get a MLS franchise, then they will never see another pro sports team call the bluff city their home. And that's really sad considering how large Memphis really is.

The big city that couldn't.

Atlanta has actually lost two NHL franchises. The Flames who are of course in Calgary now was the first.

I agree with all of this, but I have a hard time understanding how from a cultural and traditional standpoint you think Memphis could and would support an MLS team. The novelty of it would carry the franchise for a few seasons (if the corporate sponsorship is there), but long term, unless they were competing every year it wouldn't happen. Hell look at the Grizzlies, we all know that Memphis is a basketball town and they had pathetic attendance for stretches until the ZBO and Big Spain emergence.

Originally Posted by DoomJ

Oh, and as far as that last point, this is a strictly by-the-numbers chart. Obviously it can't account for culture. NHL, on paper, can work in Atlanta, and on paper, is too much for Winnipeg. But, Atlanta is a hockey vacuum, while hockey is the official religion of Winnipeg- which is why it works there.

Also makes sense when looking at major league baseball in Milwaukee. On paper, a horrible idea. But, the team has a long history with the place and is well-ingrained in the local culture, so it works.

That's exactly why I don't think the MLS would work here...just my opinion though.

[DoomJ]

Originally Posted by arkitekte

That's exactly why I don't think the MLS would work here...just my opinion though.

Oh I don't disagree- I was just suggesting that, on paper, we could be a better choice than some larger markets, but yeah, I'm not certain what our "culture" on this sport would be. It would certainly appeal to the younger, millennial crowd we're trying to cultivate, maintain and retain, but that might not be near enough, no doubt.

[Huntsvillenative]

The very same thing was said when the talks began about the Grizzlies moving to Memphis. Sure, it'll work for a few years then be an afterthought. But that has never been the case. The Grizzlies won over the community and is now becoming a potential contender.

This is what I meant about the mindset of Memphians. They do not look at the cup filled to the top. They only see it half empty. It's always been that way dating back more than a century. Being known as a big time city helps you grow economically. But Memphis doesn't because people would rather stay stuck in the past. That is why so many smaller markets are starting to surpass Memphis that never should.