Phoenix CityScape Thread

[PHX602]

I'd love to go but I have to work the graveyard tonight. Is anyone going to bring their camera? If you can, try to post up the photos before 9:30pm.

[combusean]

Hmm ... it seems that if there were a meeting to go to, tonight's would be the one--if you don't like what RED will propose for the design, by the next Parks board meeting it will be too late.

[HX_Guy]

You guys ready for it?
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It was a pretty long meeting tonight and obviously the unveiling of the master plan for the whole project, not just Patriot's Park. I put together the drawing of one of the slides showing a side profile since I wasn't able to catch a picture from the presentation.

The plan pretty much surprised everyone and there were plenty of people there to voice their dislike for it.

Personally I expected something else which is why I'm not crazy about this one, but really I'll take it. I kind of had my own vision of how it would turn out and you know how when you expect something and it doesn't turn out that way, you're kind of let down a bit.

The project definitely has a sort of Westgate look to it with a long corridor design. From the plan, it looks very similar to Arizona Center but I asked Mike Ebert a couple questions and he said that there would be retail both "inside" as well as along all the streets, including Jefferson which was my main concern because it looks very closed in at the corner of 1st St and Jefferson. Mike agreed that the big mistake of Arizona Center was turning it inward with blank walls to the streets.

The plan really isn't all that different from the original plans...



Also I asked Mike about the height planned and it sounds like they are sticking to their original plans. He said "over 400', around 425' "


The next meeting is Feb. 22nd and the assumption is that a vote will be taken on the project by the city council...hopefully they say yes and things can finally move forward.

[vertex]

Exciting stuff. Is it me, or does it look as though Central Ave. is closed off to traffic? There is this diagonal 'feature' cutting across the block and the street; I'm just wondering if it blocks traffic. And where exactly is the redesigned park?

[HX_Guy]

There is a planned pedestrian bridge planned above Central Ave, much like in the original plan. They are working on getting Central Ave down to two lanes from the four that it is now...which probably makes sense since it will be down to two (or three?) north of Washington where the light rail tracks are...no?

I do like that they added traffic lanes between the hotel and residential towers, though they will probably be used mostly by people traveling to CityScape or living there...much like the lanes inside Kierland Commons. Still, it will be good to have people driving and walking through the middle so it's not so isolated to the outside.

[jvbahn]

I think I like the original design better....haha. Well, I suppose if we added up all the public space that will be used to create yet another sitting area in the middle of an open-air shopping mall, then we'd get the same square footage as Patriots Square Park. But, then again, this is better than just leaving empty surface lots and the Park in its current condition. I just hope that private, creative and innovative individuals create the entertainment districts and art districs on Jackson or Roosevelt. Then at least I could find something unique in Phoenix, unlike CityScape, which will be Borders, PF Changs, and all the other things you find at any given mall on the outside of Phoenix. This is an attempt to make downtown palatable to the suburbians so they feel safe on their jaunts to the arena or ballpark, not any real attempt at organic urbanism unique to Arizona. We should just knock everything down and let Will Bruder go wild, then I might pay more attention.

[HooverDam]

Hm, well I'm not sure how I feel about that. First for the things I like:

- I like the different footprints of the 4 towers, it should give each of them a unique shape and look (even though they each won't have a unique height).

- I like the open pathway that lines up w/ 1st street and Central Ave, it will allow for some connectivity between the buildings to the north, and the buildings to the south- with out having to go around the project.

-I love that they plan on bringing a bookstore to the project (though it'll probably be a Barnes and Noble, its still very needed).

-I like that it looks like there will be a small east-west road between the hotel/residential building and the residential/retail building.

- What appears to be a patch of grass in between the AJs, the retail and the restaurant is a nice touch. Its a small bit of grass, but every bit of green we can get downtown is appreciated.

Things I dislike:

-It does look very turned in on itself; for instance: on the two eastern most buildings there is street level retail lining the small east-west street, but seemingly none along Washington and Jefferson.

-All of the buildings seem very close to the 'outer' streets (Washington, Jefferson, 1st ave and 2nd st), I worry there won't be enough room for outdoor patios and paseo's and entries into the retail.

-The 1st ave/Jefferson corner looks extremely closed off. I hope there are some openings that allow people to cut through, and that the retail all has doors facing the streets.

Things I have questions about:
-What is the height on the free standing restaurant and the retail, bookstore, and AJs going to have? If they are all just a story or two, it seems like it would be a huge waste of space. I'd hope they are at least 5 stories or so with apartments/condos above them.

-Which part is going to go up first? I know its being done in phases, I worry that if this thing ends up only getting half built it will really be a mess and not work at all.

Overall, the whole thing does seem a bit suburban. I wish all the buildings were closer together and the retail and open space was around the outside, not the inside. I think one small thing that could really help it a lot is if they switched where the AJs and whatever's just to the west of it, with the open grass area. That way you'd have the largest open area facing Jefferson and the whole thing wouldn't feel like a walled off mall. Or if they'd just back everything off the streets a bit and add height, I'd be happy.

[HX_Guy]

I think it would be very hard, if not impossible, to have everything face outward toward the streets and nothing in the center and still make this work for the developer. They need as much perimeter area as possible, and the design they came up with just about doubles it vs having boxes in the middle with entrances from the main streets.

Really if this turns into something like Keirland Commons I personally would really like it. If you've been there and walked around, it feels a lot more urban then many many parts of downtown. We even had a few friends from Italy come visit here and we took them to Kierland, and they were amazed and impressed saying "This feels like we are in another city, somewhere in Europe"...mainly because you can actually walk around, in and out of stores, restaurants, etc.

My biggest concern, and really I hope RED is serious when they say that there will be retail facing the streets, not just toward the inside. It looks like the entrance to AJs is off the NW corner of Central and Jefferson, which is good if that is the plan. If the entrance is from inside the area by the grassy green area, that would be horrible as the rest of the place would be blank walls.

Next to AJs will be the parking garage entrance, so no street front retail there...but then the corner of 1st and Jefferson is critical. There needs to be something right there opening it's doors to the street. The parking garage again on 1st will not allow entrance to the bookstore probably, so that will only be accessed from the corner of Washington and 1st or from inside the project.

[PHX_PD]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Also I asked Mike about the height planned and it sounds like they are sticking to their original plans. He said "over 400', around 425' "

425', thats it? I was under the impression it would be closer to 500'. Overall I like the project... it just would have been nice to finally get a new tallest.

[JI5]

Chins up. we're getting a 4-in-1 high rise deal here. Yeah, its corporate but - folks living downtown should, at a MINIMUM, have access to the same stores that people in the suburbs have access to. The kind of urbanism most of us are looking for cannot simply be built or created. Its organic. It needs time to evolve, and time to age. In the mean time, lets work on getting an attractive downtown together! This is certainly a good step. For now, lets think SAN DIEGO.

[BA744PHX]

I personally think it looks nice. The only question I have is how many stores are going to be put into this project? Judging on the size of both AJ's and P.F. Changs it doesnt look like much can get in there.

Also what are those purple things in the center of the shopping area?

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

I personally think it looks nice. The only question I have is how many stores are going to be put into this project? Judging on the size of both AJ's and P.F. Changs it doesnt look like much can get in there.

Also what are those purple things in the center of the shopping area?

Hard to tell what the 'purple' thing is, its probably either a tree, or perhaps a small water feature.

I agree it doesn't look like many stores will be able to fit in the project, but you also have to consider that there is retail going in along the east-west street between Jefferson and Washington.

I was thinking about what type of retail will be going into CityScape,and one thing I hope they can land is an Apple store. The Valley already has two, but one downtown could serve the central and west valley. Plus it brings a certain cache to a location (kind of brings in the same crowd as AJs and PF Changs), even if it was a smaller Apple store, it would be nice to have just because their store design is always clean, unique and nice.

Also, as important as it is for the Jefferson & 1st ave corner not to just be a blank wall, I think the Jefferson & 2nd street corner is just as important. That corner faces towards USAC, so it has the potential to be a big hub of walkable activity. Since thats where the hotel is going into, I hope that a nice ground level restaurant can be put at Jefferson & 2nd st.

If the feature (the black line) cutting across Central Ave is a pedestrian walkway, does that mean that the area between "office" tower and the "PF Changs/Multi use tower" is elevated as well? Looking at it now, it looks like there is a bit of a drop shadow there, and that that will be a 2nd floor terrace connecting the two buildings, allowing cars to pass on the east-west street below.

Wow, I didn't mean to make such a long post- ah well

[CANUC]

Wow, this amazingly un-inspiring. It just reminds me to much of the Arizona and Collier Center’s. I can’t believe they haven’t taken note of how those two projects have had similar issues yet they seem to be going down a similar path. I hate to say this because we gave him such a hard time but Combusean had some valid points. The city is giving RED an entire city block and the only thing they could come up with was and AJ’s and a book store!? I myself have said that people who choose to live downtown should have access to the same things available in the suburbs but I don’t understand why RED would claim to need that extra block in order to make this project pencil out yet the only thing they place on that block is a grocery store and ancillary retail. I mean they couldn’t have included that in the two blocks they already had?

I’m sorry but all I see is a developer who promised far more than they are willing to give. They only truly seem committed to one to two towers at the most. The second block between 1st and 2nd street seems like an afterthought now. I really am loosing confidence in anything significant happening. I mean consider the scenario. RED develops one block and slaps some paint on the block given to them by city by putting a few retail components. They then leave the third block undeveloped and then they sell it to re-coup some of the 25 million they paid originally. They then turn around and sell the former Patriots square block to yet another land holder and we never see anything more than a stubby 400’ tower not much different than the Collier Center. I feel like someone who just lost a winning lottery ticket. Sorry to sound so negative but I guess my own expectations should have been lower…that’s a sad commentary.

Please, please, please let people with vision create the Jackson entertainment district, please.

[HX_Guy]

Looking at the picture again, I'm trying to figure out how this would be built in phases. From what was approved by the city council before, I remember they have to build 500 residential and so many st ft of retail and so many st ft of office.

Now unless they change their plans altogether, it looks like the office building would be on the middle block and all the residential would be on the left block. I guess they could turn the multi-use tower into the residential, or maybe it already is since "multi-use" can mean anything?

Also, I tried to picture if they could do this project without using the block that Patriot's Park sits on now and really I don't think they can.
The block with the residential/retain and hotel/residential is pretty full with those. The hotel needs it's lobby...no room for a book store or an AJs really, it would seem pretty out of place. The restaurant from the Patriot's block could probably be put there, unless they have plans for another restaurant.
The AJs obviously wouldn't go in the office tower, maybe the multi-use one though? Again though there are things probably already planned for the ground floor there.
Then you have the bookstore, again unless you make it on a second story above other retail or lobby space, doesn't seem to have much room...plus all the other retail proposed for Patriot's block.

Seems hard to pencil out unless it's in this configuration.

[nbrindley]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

I am pretty confused by this layout with respect to the towers. It looks like half of the condo owners are just going to be staring at the other building. I remember when the original plan was shown (included for reference) someone asked about that. It seems as though the office towers are oriented to maximize the views for occupants, while the residential towers are not. Any thoughts?

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by nbrindley

It seems as though the office towers are oriented to maximize the views for occupants, while the residential towers are not. Any thoughts?

I think you are right, but I think that just comes with a downtown as it increases its density. Really is 44 Monroe going to have a ton of great views? A lot of its occupants will just be staring at another building across the street.

[vertex]

Does CityScape have a twin?

We all know that the architect (Callison) is known more for suburban malls, such as the Scottsdale Fashion Square expansion.

However, they seem to have a growing portfolio of urban mixed-use projects. I was lucky enough to have visited one of these very recently; the funny thing is, I didn't know that the place was designed by Callison until I visited the project team page found on the Phoenix Rising website.





The project is the Greenbelt center, in the Makati section of Manila. This place has much in common with Cityscape, including the fact that it is built around an existing urban park!

http://www.callison.com/portfolio/po...&ProjType_ID=1

I was impressed with the place. It is the most popular shopping area in this part of the city, which is saying a lot, given the amount of competing retail nearby. It fits very well into an area that already features several office buildings on one side of the site, and several department stores on the other. The project has two skyscrapers (1 condo and 1 office), with 3 other condo towers under construction.

Here are 2 of my own pics, taken from my hotel room. They aren't great, since I was trying to photograph the skyline, but they give you an idea.

Here is the CBD, with the Greenbelt in the bottom-left corner. The buildings U/C are the 3 condo towers that are part of the overall project.



Here is a pic of the Ayala museum, which is incorporated into the development. A part of the park can be seen in the image as well.



Here are a few other pics (not mine), found at the SSC website. These give you a better idea of what the area is like around the project.

This is the view from the 2nd floor, looking past the courtyard; this helps to put the center in context with the rest of the CBD.



A shot of the complex, including the new condo's under construction. Callison's website states that the retail area is about 300,000 s/f. I'm not sure if CityScape is slated to have more square footage or less .



Anyway, I know that CityScape is nowhere near complete, in terms of design. But I just feel a lot better about it now, since I now realize that I've seen firsthand a project designed by the same architect, with similar characteristics.

More images and comments from my recent trip can be found here.

[loftlovr]

The pictures were comforting!

[HX_Guy]

I got a reply back to my email request for the site plan that was presented. Here is the PDF and also screen shots.

http://www.nitnelav.com/patriotsplan.pdf










It looks like varying heights of 30 stories, two towers at 37 stories and one at 44 (or 41, it's hard to make out). The buildings on Patriot's Square block will vary from 2-6 stories it seems.

Now the 44 story tower makes me wonder about the height. When I asked Mike about the height, it was immediately after I asked if they are still doing two residential towers, which he said one will be mixed with a hotel...then I asked about the height, which he said around 425'.
Was he possibly referring to the height of the residential/hotel towers? At 37 stories, that seems about right for 425'.

The 44 story should easily be at least 450 on the low end, if not much taller seeing how Chase is 40 stories and 487'.

In the email, they also stated "Our plans are to have retail facing out to Washington & Jefferson, as well as towards the internal public areas. Part of it will depend on the tenants and space needs."

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

In the email, they also stated "Our plans are to have retail facing out to Washington & Jefferson, as well as towards the internal public areas. Part of it will depend on the tenants and space needs."

Thanks, these better quality drawings clear up a lot. Though I wish every retail outlet in the center would have doors and windows facing both internally and towards the streets- that seems like a minimum for making this project more urban and inviting from the outside.