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  #3001  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 4:07 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
One aspect of the meeting that was discouraging is the fact that one of the goals of the meeting is to determine whether there is enough interest to proceed to phase 2. You would think that most communities would be solidly behind a stadium project so why is it so different in Halifax? Certainly everyone is gunshy after the CWG debacle but a stadium will bring far more pros than cons and even if there are cost overruns it won't break the community.
One question that I have is whether the stadium project is being promoted to the same extent as the library project - I believe that there were posters at the universities advertising the library open houses. Is the same be done with the stadium project? Was there sufficient advertising in the newspapers, online, etc?

I think there is a attitude of disbelief in the HRM regarding a stadium. I have a feeling that few really expect the stadium to proceed because of all the failed attempts in the past, not because people wouldn't like to see a stadium and CFL team.

To be fair, Mayor Kelly started the new year by going on various talk shows to promote a stadium, however, after the bad publicity surrounding the concert cash advances, the stadium promotion by Mayor Kelly became almost nonexistent.
     
     
  #3002  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 4:35 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by wespidel View Post
Fenwick there is another CFL model that I believe can be build for probably under 100 million if built right and that`s the Montreal McGill Als CFL stadium that was recently renovated and expanded to 25 thousand permanent seats and they added an additional 19 skyboxes and other revenue features, an open face concourse with permanent washrooms and concession stands, etc., to make their owner more viable and I believe this type of CFL stadium could be built for 80 million.
Yes, I agree that once parking and land costs are included then the total stadium cost could easily reach $80 million. If a CFL team is obtained, and it is successful, then the cost might go even higher but at that point it would be justifiable. However, the entire $80 million dollar stadium doesn't have to be completely built next year. The first stage could be built for $30 million - $40 million and then the remaining 25,000 seats could be built through fund raising.

The way that I see this unfolding are a couple different ways:
1) It could be decided that a large stadium is unaffordable and the SMU Stadium will be expanded, but probably it won't be able to host 25,000 spectators for the CFL. This would be disappointing as far as the CFL goes, although it would be better than what currently exists in the HRM.
2) The first stage of a large stadium could be built in the HRM which might start at 12,000 - 15,000 seats but could be expanded in the future through fund raising. This is my hope since I don't expect a $80 million dollar stadium to be built strictly through funding of only the HRM and provincial government.

In order for the number 2 option to occur, people will have to stop relying on the HRM and province to go it alone with funding (the federal government doesn't seem interested in providing funding). Alternate options will have to be found. This is based on what is stated in the media by Mayor Kelly and others - that private investors will be required. In my opinion, these private investors don't have to be found for the first part of the stadium to occur. Just a stadium design is important so that sufficient space is allowed for expansion and in order to get individual and corporate sponsors.

Most people on this forum felt a year ago that financing would be a problem (since both levels of government were cutting costs). At that time a stadium wasn't even being discussed; at least now it is being discussed. Now residents in the HRM and ex-Nova Scotians throughout Canada have to work with the HRM to find a way to finance it. Let the HRM and province start with phase I (12,000 - 15,000 seats) and then let others find a way to finish it. At least give them a chance to do so. This has been done numerous times throughout the US and Canada to fund university stadiums.
     
     
  #3003  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 4:55 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Details on the FIFA 2015 bid from wiki.

I think Empire hit the nail on the head - everyone is gun shy after CWG bid disaster. But there comes a time where people have to just suck it up and move on and I think we're at the point now...all except Bruce Devanne, who will never let anything go...

I think you are seeing the pendulum swing the other way to the side of people wanting to just get on with it and get the cranes up and get building. Yes, they still want it reasonably priced; but the support I suspect is there.
     
     
  #3004  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 6:35 AM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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I think this is another example of a nice looking stadium: It is the Texas Bobcats Stadium (below): The first part of this stadium was built in 1981 (the two sidelines - brown color). The endzone section is a new proposed addition which will add 14,000 seats and cost $32 million dollars (about $2,300 per seat cost).

(source: http://bobcatfans.com/archives/2341 )


I think that the double sideline stands on the left side of the picture (dark brown) is about as inexpensive as is possible. The concessions and washrooms are built outside the stands instead of under the stands. This makes the stands very simple and provides more room under the stands for spectator circulation. It also reduces the cost of stadium exit doors and other fire safety measures that wouldn't be required with an open space under the stands. This configuration could be considered for both sidelines but have a partial roof, and possibly some media space and club suites under one and eventually both sideline stands as required.

The sideline sections are somewhat similar to the Events Nova Scotia design but extend up higher and have more rows in the lower sunken bowl. One side of the Events Nova Scotia design will be quite expensive with various levels of space under one sideline stand. A possibility would be to build it larger but simpler as is the case of the left sideline section (above) of the Texas Bobcat stadium. It might save money to have the changerooms and media space in a separate but integrated building.

This is the Events Nova Scotia design. It is a good start, if they would just be a bit more ambitious and have about 20 rows in both the lower and upper tiers (40 rows total). And eventually have similar stands on both sides. PS: Actually it would be cheaper to have a simpler design on the other side without all the interior space (as in the left-hand sidelines in the Texas Bobcats Stadium - as illustrated above). It could still look consistent with the rest of the stadium by having the actual seat layout the same.


Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 9, 2011 at 3:07 AM.
     
     
  #3005  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 2:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenwick16 View Post
I think this is another example of a nice looking stadium: It is the Texas Bobcats Stadium (below): The first part of this stadium was built in 1981 (the two sidelines - brown color). The endzone section is a new proposed addition which will add 14,000 seats and cost $32 million dollars (about $2,300 per seat cost).

(source: http://bobcatfans.com/archives/2341 )


I think that the double sideline stands on the left side of the picture (dark brown) is about as inexpensive as is possible. The concessions and washrooms are built outside the stands instead of under the stands. This makes the stands very simple and provides more room under the stands for spectator circulation. It also reduces the cost of stadium exit doors and other fire safety measures that wouldn't be required with an open space under the stands. This configuration could be considered for both sidelines but have a partial roof, and possibly some media space and club suites under one and eventually both sideline stands as required.

The sideline sections are somewhat similar to the Events Nova Scotia design but extend up higher and have more rows in the lower sunken bowl. One side of the Events Nova Scotia design will be quite expensive with various levels of space under one sideline stand. A possibility would be to build it larger but simpler as is the case of the left sideline section (above) of the Texas Bobcat stadium. It might save money to have the changerooms and media space in a separate but integrated building.

This is the Events Nova Scotia design. It is a good start, if they would just be a bit more ambitious and have about 20 rows in both the lower and upper tiers (40 rows total). And eventually have similar stands on both sides.

Bobcat's Stadium is an excellent design. I still think you could have leasable space around the perimeter of the stadium. Shops (sporting goods), restaurants some office space etc. If the stadium was a transit hub you would have build in customers. The stadium could be producing revenue from the leased space which would then catch the eye of private developers. Lansdowne Park has a rink under the stands so shops like Dartmouth Crossing should be very doable.

This view could be the outer perimeter of the stadium:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&sourc...12,102.65,,0,0
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  #3006  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 5:53 PM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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(source: http://bobcatfans.com/archives/2341 )


Me want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This design would work perfectly on the Windsor lots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Get to it lads!
     
     
  #3007  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:05 PM
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Costing via Tender Concept

Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
One aspect of the meeting that was discouraging is the fact that one of the goals of the meeting is to determine whether there is enough interest to proceed to phase 2. You would think that most communities would be solidly behind a stadium project so why is it so different in Halifax? Certainly everyone is gunshy after the CWG debacle but a stadium will bring far more pros than cons and even if there are cost overruns it won't break the community.
I think right now dollars are tight everywhere and agree the public has had it with jobs running over, and were scared to death at CWG costs.

HRM tendering process stinks for so many reasons.

Here is a proposed solution.

HRM determines the minimum requirements ( with public consultation on what the public wants and will pay for).
Invites contractors to place bids on two levels. The first level is a finalized cost of 60 million. The second is 80 million. Any and all cost over runs based on the chosen bid will place the contractor covering the extra cost and becoming a financial partner in the project if the 80 million job ends up 88 million the contractor pays the 8 million overage and becomes a 10% owner.
So the tender in a nutshell asks for what do we get for 60 or 80 million. The analysis will pick the best bang for the buck in bids. The contractor that offers us the most and fulfills the requirements will get the job. The contractor that really wants to do this will give us the most for the money.
Of course the work and specs will have to be policed to make sure the contractor is actually providing what he said but isn't that for every project?
     
     
  #3008  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:09 PM
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Comments!

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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
One thing that was interesting about the meeting was the people who weren't obvious 'pro stadium' still seemed to be receptive to a stadium being built with their tax dollars. I saw a couple of comments about keeping it around $80 million.

Other comments:

- 25,000 min seats
- partial roof
- expandable
- don't build too small
- no track
- combine transit hub
- Shannon Park popular with ferry
- don't make same mistake as Moncton
Gee that sounds like all the stuff I wrote down except did not say anything about site location.
     
     
  #3009  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:12 PM
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I'm all for building a CFL stadium if we actually had an expansion franchise and if we can do it for under $100 million. Those are huge ifs.

Right now we are building a soccer stadium for FIFA women's cup. That is what we are talking about.

Mostly, it is I am a fiscal conservative. I want to see the province balance the budget, and there is only so much public money to go around, in HRM, provincially.

I'm a flexible thinker, if the arguments are able to convince me. The fact that I am unconvinced does not indicate a failure on my part, it indicates your arguments are not compelling for everyone. I am not the only person in Halifax, or on this board, who has these concerns and doubts.
Its backwards thinking like this that is the reason were in debt imo. We need to attract people to the province, and as good as a balanced budget sounds its not going to bring boatloads of people to ns. You have to spend money to make money.
     
     
  #3010  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Empire View Post
Bobcat's Stadium is an excellent design. I still think you could have leasable space around the perimeter of the stadium. Shops (sporting goods), restaurants some office space etc. If the stadium was a transit hub you would have build in customers. The stadium could be producing revenue from the leased space which would then catch the eye of private developers. Lansdowne Park has a rink under the stands so shops like Dartmouth Crossing should be very doable.
If the stadium was built as part of shannon park, I would expect that you would have retail on the outter edges and then mixed use buildings as a treatment on the waters edge side.

So you'd have the mixed use, ferry terminal and a waterfront walkway on the waters edge, then the road and then some limited commercial or mixed use, parking and then the stadium on the other side of the road (similar to the Canada Games proposal).

One question I have Fenwick on the discussion diagram you posted from whw - is the thought on the sunken 2200 and 2900 seat area that expansion would involve building stands similar to the upper level sky box side design and then the empty end zone would also be expandable in that way? That would add roughly 7600 seats to the design (1800 with the skyboxes by three sides plus roughly 2200 seats at the end zone)?
     
     
  #3011  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:25 PM
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Meeting numbers

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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
Yeah I didn't get there until 8pm, but apparently the crowds were great at 6:30. I have a friend who is on the committee (didn't realize until I saw him there) and had a good chat with him.
I had a good look at all the messages that were posted, since I was there until it was done at 8:30. 90% were positive in various forms, but as I was saying to my friend it will be difficult to integrate it all because much of it is mutually exclusive.

Regardless, I put in my 2 cents to the committee members as a representative of the Beyeas Special Interest Group (TM), and said that this needs to happen, it needs to be built in a way that is expandable for future planning purposes up to a full Grey Cup size, should not have a track so as to preserve views for the primary uses of football and soccer, should be integrated with a transit hub, should not just be a slightly scaled up version of what Moncton built, and that this is a huge quality of life issue that is a massive part of the equation of recruiting and retaining talented workers to this city (as quality of life requires a whole range of amenities).
The early meeting numbers were disappointing as well.....I got there around 6:30 and left around 7:15. I would say no more than 50 people. Spent sometime talking with council member Fisher. He stayed focused on the qualifications being met for the FIFA bid....which is strictly by the book for the record sort of thing. That's an issue this for type of process...justifying a project based on one possible event.
My opinion is that without a vision to build for the what could be there it'll be stuck in the mud.
Apparently the Steering committee has the (barf) typical sub-committees that are dealing with the specifics of meeting outside groups (never to be named). So nobody knows what the sub-committees are doing or not unless you happen to be on one....or two or three....or none.
I think there is enough meddling of HRM staff in the mix to screw up even the easiest of tasks.
Sorry but starting feel negative on this or at least the process...where are lets get this done people!!??!!
     
     
  #3012  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 7:31 PM
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NDP Govt

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Originally Posted by wackypacky View Post
Its backwards thinking like this that is the reason were in debt imo. We need to attract people to the province, and as good as a balanced budget sounds its not going to bring boatloads of people to ns. You have to spend money to make money.
wacky,
You have to remember that we have an NDP Govt.....they wont put any monies to this. They put only 4 million of 50 million of BMO Centre rink project.
They would prefer to buy forest land for 200 million, give Irving 20 million for the shipyard upgrade without any new employment, 500 million for govt union pension funding.....all added to the NS taxpayer debt load. NDP have us one billion more in debt in their first two years of "governing" ! Do we really think they are forward think enough to support in way a Stadium project.?

All I'm hopeful for from the NDP is that they will put some cash in just because they will want some wearing orange at the ribbon cutting celebration!
     
     
  #3013  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 9:48 PM
fenwick16 fenwick16 is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
One question I have Fenwick on the discussion diagram you posted from whw - is the thought on the sunken 2200 and 2900 seat area that expansion would involve building stands similar to the upper level sky box side design and then the empty end zone would also be expandable in that way? That would add roughly 7600 seats to the design (1800 with the skyboxes by three sides plus roughly 2200 seats at the end zone)?
It looks like that is the ultimate plan. However, it probably won't be large enough for a Grey Cup with the number of rows in the lower and upper tiers (the renderings show about 25 rows from the field level to the top) - renderings. It looks like it might be expandable to about 25,000 if the field is completely enclosed with upper and lower seating tiers. In order to be expandable to 42,000 - 43,000 thousand, it would need 38 - 40 rows from field level to the very top row, all around. The stated estimate of the Events Nova Scotia stadium is $40 million including land cost and development costs. This sounds reasonable since one side has a significant amount of enclosed space.

In my opinion, adding another 10,000 seats shouldn't double the cost since the field will already be there, the land will be paid for, the night lights will be installed, sewer and drainage would be already installed, etc. If basic stands are added, then another 15,000 seats might only add $30 million to the total cost. So it makes sense to me to go higher in the number of rows and have more of the seats along one sideline so that it can be expanded to host a Grey Cup.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 8, 2011 at 10:01 PM.
     
     
  #3014  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2011, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATL Stadium View Post
I think right now dollars are tight everywhere and agree the public has had it with jobs running over, and were scared to death at CWG costs.

HRM tendering process stinks for so many reasons.

Here is a proposed solution.

HRM determines the minimum requirements ( with public consultation on what the public wants and will pay for).
Invites contractors to place bids on two levels. The first level is a finalized cost of 60 million. The second is 80 million. Any and all cost over runs based on the chosen bid will place the contractor covering the extra cost and becoming a financial partner in the project if the 80 million job ends up 88 million the contractor pays the 8 million overage and becomes a 10% owner.
So the tender in a nutshell asks for what do we get for 60 or 80 million. The analysis will pick the best bang for the buck in bids. The contractor that offers us the most and fulfills the requirements will get the job. The contractor that really wants to do this will give us the most for the money.
Of course the work and specs will have to be policed to make sure the contractor is actually providing what he said but isn't that for every project?
It's obvious that the NDP gov will be useless in this process. One thing they could do, is offer a provincial tax credit for shares in the stadium. There was a similar share offering for the Seaport Farmer's Market.
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  #3015  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 1:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Empire View Post
It's obvious that the NDP gov will be useless in this process. One thing they could do, is offer a provincial tax credit for shares in the stadium. There was a similar share offering for the Seaport Farmer's Market.
It's called a CEDIF - http://www.gov.ns.ca/econ/cedif/ and the government doesn't need to do anything, someone just has to set up the company and run it through the NS SEC for approval. People use this method for all sorts of things, like wind farms, or Just Us Coffee coops, or cranberry juice companies.

There is also the NS Equity Tax credit. http://www.gov.ns.ca/finance/en/home...t/default.aspx
     
     
  #3016  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 3:11 AM
wespidel wespidel is offline
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In Canada there are basically two types of outdoor stadiums!

Except for the Big O and BMO`s lone soccer stadium there are basically two types of outdoor stadium that have been build in Canada. One being a smaller university football 5 to 16 thousand seat basic stadium and the other of course being CFL stadiums that are currently in major cities across Canada and new ones to be built.

So my point is that Halifax unless they back out of the bid are guarantee a stadium like I indicated which I`m surprised didn`t get any reaction unless I was misunderstood.

HALIFAX WILL BE GUARANTEED A HOST CITY BID SHARED WITH MONCTON FOR THE FINAL SIXTH DIVISION, SO SEVEN BECOMES SIX.
THIS IS TRUE BUT HASN`T YET BEEN ANNOUNCED BUT JUST LIKE SOME OF YOU DOUBTED ME FORWARD, YOU WILL SEE!

This is one of the main reasons why Halifax only wants to built what they need for the bid, a 10 to 15 thousand permanent seat 30 million dollar stadium, unless a private sector potential CFL owner steps up at the last minute. My problem with this approach especially for the size of Halifax and surrounding area, is that if Winnipeg didn`t have a NHL rink in place at this particular time even with an owner, they would not have a NHL hockey franchise back in Winnipeg today and that is fact. So personally I don`t buy the argument if you don`t have a potential owner first we won`t build a CFL model stadium which seems to me to be backwards. I think if you had a CFL model stadium built you would definitely attract a CFL owner.

It`s seems to be a double standard for the stadium versus all the other big projects when it comes to the scope of the project. Dexter`s govt. and the city has no problem finding 100 million for a convention centre that most people don`t want versus a modestly priced major stadium that they do want!
     
     
  #3017  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 3:30 AM
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We all understand these things wespidel. Many of us have followed the Halifax news for decades. But unless someone can arrange a march of thousands of people in support of a stadium (unlikely) then your prediction might very well come true.

Haligonians have a chance this week with the stadium open houses to show their support. So far, I don't think that it has happened (I am not sure of the turnout tonight). Maybe there really isn't the necessary political and civic will to build anything more than the Events Nova Scotia Stadium. If so, then hoping that such a stadium is built for significant expansion in the future is the best that people can hope for.

A lot of people would like to see some sort of stadium built instead of no stadium built.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 9, 2011 at 3:45 AM.
     
     
  #3018  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 11:01 AM
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I feel that Halifax could build a two tier stadium such as the one below with 20,000 permanent seats for $40 million dollars, including land cost (excluding the large curved building in one endzone). For a few million more it could also have a modest partial roof covering the upper tier. It could have inexpensive bucket seats something like these - bucket seats instead of more expensive folding seats. The space under the upper tier would be just open space with the washrooms and concessions being outside the stands (but directly next to the stands - as below). This probably isn't what many people on this forum are dreaming of, but I think it is realistic. I would buy two season tickets each year just to support a CFL team at such a facility.

Edited (by me): Another 5,000 more seats could likely be added for a minimum of $7.5 million dollars ($1,500 per seat or less, because it is a very basic design). I think the CFL would be interested in such a facility if they could sell 25,000 season tickets for $400 - $500 each.

(source: http://www.txstate.edu/virtual-campu...t-stadium.html )
Texas Bobcats Stadium prior to expansion


Even though initially it would look like a simple stadium as above, eventually if it is a successful venue, then there would be the possibility of expanding it several times to look something like below:

(source: http://bobcatfans.com/archives/2341 )


The other option is the 10,000 seat Events Nova Scotia proposed stadium with all the amenities. I don't think that the HRM will have time to find funding for a 25,000 seat stadium with all the amenities that costs $80 million dollars or more.

Last edited by fenwick16; Jun 10, 2011 at 6:47 AM.
     
     
  #3019  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 2:27 PM
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I think the Texas Bobcats stadium is bang on, though I would propose building one bleacher to start and using temporary on the other side until we had proven demand. Then expand it.

I also am reminded when the Als went back to Montreal the McGill stadium was only 17,000, so we can start small and build up based on demand, just like Montreal.
     
     
  #3020  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2011, 4:38 PM
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@#$%. I was waiting for this.

Given all the crap with Kelly and the concert promoting, it was only a matter of time before other worthwhile projects get tarred as well.

This was the final paragraph of the CH's editorial today:

Quote:
Mr. Kelly should finally face the same accountability before council. If he doesn’t, what will really change? Mr. Kelly already has a new Great Obsession — a stadium that will be just as hard to fill and to keep afloat as those Common concerts. Woe to city taxpayers if council doesn’t now force some discipline, competence and accountability on government by obsession.
It does piss me off (and I know it pisses off others in here even more) that there is no expectation for other public projects to pay out profits, and yet this is being held to a different standard (i.e. it has to make money or we can't do it).
     
     
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