Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I'm of the mind that a 25,000-28,000 seat bowl doesn't need more than 1 tier. Empire Field is testament to that. West Harbour has 2 tiers, but I do love that design. I love for Halifax to get something like that too, but you're right that it's just not in the cards.

Is your reasoning for 3 tiers in your design due to optimizing distance from field? It is a compelling reason, but would make it more expensive.

Yes it would be more expensive (2 tiers would be somewhat cheaper per seat). I like having a 3rd tier because it is a way to add more seats without needing a more expensive roof to cover the addition rows (since they all overhang the 2nd tier). I thought that if the stadium were built with two tiers but had extra height (15 feet should be sufficient) then the 3rd tier could be added when required. On the other hand, if additional rows are added to the 2nd tier then either 1) the roof will have to be more expensive to cover all the sideline seats or 2) some of the field level seats will not be covered.

With the Empire Stadium, there is no room for expansion (so it couldn't hold a Grey Cup) and I don't see much room for handicapped seating and luxury seating. It was meant just as a temporary facility so there was not any consideration of leaving room for expansion. The Empire Stadium roof would be the least expensive style to build since it is supported by columns within the seating area (like the Halifax Forum) - but would this be acceptable in Halifax? (it is present in Fenway Park). The Percival Molson Stadium is another good model since it seems to be so popular - but no roof (but Montreal has the Big O if they plan to host the Grey Cup). In my opinion, if the seats are not covered then a CFL team in Halifax has less chance of succeeding (on a rainy day there will be less of a walk up crowd). Most of the newly proposed stadiums for the CFL have most of the seats covered.

The Hamilton West Harbour is a fantastic looking design with a retractable roof, so I am sure the roof structure will be costly. Have you heard any cost estimates? I think that it looks like at least a $300 million dollar stadium.

I have big dreams of Canada hosting the FIFA World Men's Cup in 20 - 30 years and would like Halifax to host some first round games (maybe even some second round games). To do so, the Halifax Stadium should be expansion-ready to over 40,000 seats. The same logic holds for the Grey Cup Game.

PS: There is the chance that a Halifax based CFL team would be so successful that it would need room for expansion. It has happened many times in the USA, it would be good to see the same phenomenon start happening in Canada. With all the exciting new stadium designs on the books for the CFL, it might very well grow in popularity in the coming years. I hope that Halifax will get a team before the franchise fee becomes too expensive to afford.

[fenwick16]

This is one of the Hamilton Proposals. I think this is an amazing stadium proposal. When I saw it, I wondered how much money such a roof would cost without the retractable roof section. This would look great in Halifax (even without the retractable roof section). The corner buildings could be residential and it could be built somewhere close to downtown Halifax (maybe north of the Forum or next to the Via Station).

PS: One big advantage to having a stadium close to downtown is that it will make use of thousands of parking spots presently available in the downtown area. The Rogers Centre (Skydome) does not have its own parking (if it does then it is very minimal). People park their cars in lots that are presently available and then walk to the Rogers Centre.

(source: http://hamiltonbay.blogspot.com/p/vi...or-future.html )

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

IMO, Empire Fields looks awesome on TV.

Probably isn't a popular opinion, but I don't see a problem with roof supports in the seating area just like Empire Field. Yeah it is far from ideal, but 500 seats with an obstructed view is worth keeping 25,000 seats completely dry.

Based on what I have read about Saputo Stadium, Columbus Crew Stadium and Empire Field, I think a decent stadium could be built with a $30 million budget. Basically a permanent version of Empire Field.

I share your sentiment - I would rather be dry and have some obstruction to viewing the field by roof columns. However, based on tinkering with 3D models, essentially any seat in the back of the columns will have some obstructed views (about 50% of the sideline seats).

I think a 2 tier stadium could be built for $70 - $80 million that will provide handicapped seating and a roof covering most of the seats. I keep thinking of the InfoCision Stadium in Akron. Instead of have an expensive media tower, that money could be spent on a roof (without columns). This might be a good route to take - it is basically a stadium out of the box (with some slight modifications). Here is a link to InfoCision Stadium - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InfoCis...93_Summa_Field . Looking at the media tower, it looks like it might have easily cost $10 million of the $61 million cost of this stadium. I think that this would be more than the cost of a roof over the sideline seats. (Another option is an Empire type Stadium and add a few million, or less, to have column free roofing but accept that expansion will be difficult). Personally, I think that if the city is going to build a stadium (especially if they have federal government funding for a sports event like the 2015 FIFA Women's Cup) then they should go with an InfoCision Stadium type stadium.

(source: http://www.section247sportsblog.com/...dium-akron-oh/ )

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Not to worry, I'm actually very interested in what you're doing. It's a bit of a hobby for me too, but I just doodle on scrap paper. I have no idea how to navigate SketchUp, but did down load it a while ago.

An increase in gradient from lower to upper bowls is done so that fans higher up are closer to the field than they would be if the grade was kept the same, right? I do like that feature, but sometimes find that lower bowls have too slight of a gradient, while upper bowls are too steep. Skydome in Toronto is a good example of that.

I just wanted to highly recommend becoming proficient at the SketchUp program. The feature that I like the most is being able to use the viewing feature (it is shaped like an eye). Once a model is drawn then you can position the camera (or eye) at various locations at various heights and see if a particular model will result in obstructed views. For example, I tinkered with having roof columns midway down the seating rows to see if having them in wide aisles would result in fewer obstructed seats. I found that it couldn't be done (unless aisles became increasing wide, angled upwards past the columns, but this resulted in too few seats). After one row behind the columns almost all the seats had an obstruction for some viewing angle when using a 6 foot wide aisle going up the stadium seats.

There are many SketchUp tutorials on YouTube, made by both professionals and people who use it as a hobby. If you get stuck on how to use a feature then you can just go to YouTube and find an illustrated example.

I had experience using 3D CAD software (but it was mostly self taught) so that helped in learning to use SketchUp. But initially it was very frustrating. Now that I have use it quite extensively, I have become hooked on it. SketchUp models can actually look very realistic (far better than mine) when used by someone with artistic skills. An artist can do miracles with a pencil whereas most people have a hard time even drawing a simple sketch (this might be one reason why I like SketchUp so much).

[fenwick16]

This was an article in the Chronicle Herald today about the lack of a stadium. I am sure the naysayers will be out in force again (or is it just one naysayer with multiple usernames?)

Here is the website link for anyone who would like to leave a comment. http://thechronicleherald.ca/Sports/1195915.html

Lack of stadium talk a Halifax mystery

CHRIS COCHRANE
Mon, Aug 9 - 6:57 AM

Sometimes you don’t notice the toys missing from your playpen until you see what the kids have next door.

That is the case with the stadium issue in Halifax. Since the misguided Commonwealth Games project went so wrong, there has been a collective passive acceptance that we don’t and won’t have a stadium in this market.

For many, the stadium would have been the crown jewel of the sport infrastructure legacy. And it would still fill that role if built in the future. Yet no one high up in the government or business worlds has publicly appeared bold enough to pick up the stadium cause.

I am not talking about a stadium as grandiose as the ultra-expensive structure proposed for the Commonwealth Games, but a more modest, functional model that could still bring great benefits.

There are signs, especially at the grassroots level, that momentum is again building for the stadium concept.

There’s an online petition floating around that has been drawing interest. People are again asking why Halifax is the only major Canadian city without a stadium. And leaders in various sports, who experience what other cities have to offer in terms of stadiums when they are away during competition, are again questioning why nothing is happening here.

What is behind this new enthusiasm?

Attribute much of the credit to Moncton, the smaller city that so often seems to have the blueprint for doing it right when it comes to providing sport services.

The recent world junior track and field championships, which brought a new stadium to Moncton, was, in hindsight, a more appropriate prey to hunt than the mega expensive 2014 Commonwealth Games.

The Moncton stadium seats 10,000 people and has the ability to add another 10,000 in temporary seats. Not only has it been responsible for Moncton hosting a major international event this summer — attracting 1,400 athletes from 170 countries and international publicity for the giant meet — but it is also responsible for a CFL regular season game going to the New Brunswick city this fall.

Perhaps the most impressive aspect of Moncton’s new stadium is that the price most often tossed around is in the range of just over $20 million. If that is accurate, it is a bargain.

When you consider the many benefits a stadium could bring to any major Maritime market, it appears Moncton got a great deal. There is the potential CFL franchise, perhaps a semi-pro soccer team, maybe a football Vanier Cup game, increased national and international exposure for the host city, major international track events and other non-sporting attractions such as concerts and trade shows.

Maybe the reluctance in official circles to lead a stadium push for Halifax is a hangover from the Commonwealth Games. Perhaps no one wants to push the piece of infrastructure that was so associated with that costly project.

But is the cost of a stadium really so prohibitive?

The price tag on a new Halifax library floats somewhere in the $55-million vicinity. The four-pad arena off Hammonds Plains Road is said to be about $40 million. The figures I hear for a Halifax convention centre are in the range of $120 million to $140 million.

Yet a stadium, much like what Moncton built for reportedly just over $20 million, is often dismissed locally as being too expensive and frivolous?

When the potential benefits are weighed against the cost, the stadium looks like a reasonable investment. It is baffling, considering Moncton has already shown the way, why a Halifax stadium project isn’t at least receiving the deserved public debate.

Guess that is just another of the many mysteries of Halifax.

( ccochrane@herald.ca)

Chris Cochrane is a sports columnist with The Chronicle Herald.

[brettinhalifax]

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[brettinhalifax]

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[halifaxboyns]

What about a roof that is supported by ties where the columns are behind the roof? I'm not sure where I saw that - but there are no columns where seats would be.

I am trying to think of where that was, but for the life of me I can't remember. I know the Denver Airport has a roof supported by lines, but I think there are columns.

Can anyone think of the stadium I'm thinking of? I know it's not the Olympic Stadium in Montreal...darn my lack of ability to think without two coffees in the morning! Curse you tim hortons *shakes fist*!

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

What about a roof that is supported by ties where the columns are behind the roof? I'm not sure where I saw that - but there are no columns where seats would be.

I am trying to think of where that was, but for the life of me I can't remember. I know the Denver Airport has a roof supported by lines, but I think there are columns.

Can anyone think of the stadium I'm thinking of? I know it's not the Olympic Stadium in Montreal...darn my lack of ability to think without two coffees in the morning! Curse you tim hortons *shakes fist*!

There are a few, including the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, Millennium Dome ( http://hueckme.com/membrane/Lightweight.html ) and I think that Saddle Dome in Calgary uses cables to support concrete slabs.

[brettinhalifax]

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[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

I'm not against a sunken bowl. It is just that in Halifax where there is generally 1 inch of topsoil covering bedrock, excavating 60 feet down will be really expensive.

If a 25,000 seat aluminum grandstand above ground bowl = $30 million, then a 25,000 seat concrete sunken bowl = $100 million plus.

If it had to go 60 feet down then it would be expensive, but that would provide about 40-45 rows all around and would be about a 45,000 - 50,000 seat stadium. On the other hand, going 21 feet would be enough for 15,000 seats, and for 25,000 seats, all sunken, then probably about 35 feet deep (or less) would be required. Whether it is sunken or not will depend on the site selected. If the land is already partly sunken or hilly and requires excavation anyway then having a sunken stadium seems like a good way to go. However many of the economical stadiums actually are partly sunken (InfoCision Stadium, Yale Bowl, and many others). I am not sure of the appeal of aluminum stands (this will seem like a temporary stadium). If Halifax is going to spend $30 million then it would be possible to build a concrete sunken bowl that seats at least 15,000 or more which would be ready for future expansion. The complete InfoCision Stadium was only $61 million.

If an Empire Fields Stadium is built in Halifax, and if in 10 to 15 years, all those conditions are met, then just tear down the stadium and build a new one. It was "only" a $30 million stadium. After 10 - 15 years of CFL football (and soccer tournament/freindlies, and concerts, and Vanier Cups) Halifax will have gotten the best possible bang-for-your-buck from any stadium construction project in Canada.

If instead of a $120 million dollar stadium, a $60 - $70 million permanent stadium is planned (but maybe start with $30 million going to the first sunken bowl portion) then $30 million is a significant amount of money. This would be like throwing away almost half the cost of a permanent stadium.

This probably isn't a popular opinion, but I do think a $120 million stadium is "outlandish" for Halifax. Outlandish isn't my first choice of word, I would call it an unwise investment. Instead of a lot of words, here's my thinking in a decision matrix.

I agree $120 million is more than an economical stadium should cost.

A $120 million stadium is either a good decision or a terrible decision.
A $30 million stadium is either a great decision or a bad decision.

So IMO, a $30 million stadium is the better choice.

I think that you have simplified this a bit too much. If a $60 - $70 million permanent stadium is built then it might entice more people to go to events and will have more chance of succeeding. This is the case with the major stadiums; many people just go to be at the stadium (as strange as this might sound, the stadium is as much or more of an attraction than the event)

In addition, I think there's a possibility of getting a $20-$30-$40 million stadium actually gets built. But I don't think that there is any possibility of a $100-$150 million stadium getting built.

At one time (a year ago) I believed this also - just build something quick and simple. But I don't think anything is going to be built unless Halifax gets selected for some sports event and in order to get selected, Halifax might have to meet some minimum requirements for a stadium. However, I like to think that $60 - $70 million will be sufficient.

[JayM]

Halifax should take a page out of the Empire Field Temporary Stadium.

[brettinhalifax]

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[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

IMO a $30 million stadium would be sufficient for a CFL team, soccer tournaments and concerts. And HRM has a Corolla budget, not an Escalade budget.

What exactly do you plan to get for $30M? Moncton spent $20M (according to the article) and theirs only seats 10k. We've been told time and time again that the CFL is really only interested if you have something like 20-25k permanent seats.

I'm starting to think Halifax and Saint Mary's should take a page from Montreal and McGill. If they removed that running track around Huskies Stadium, they would have the room to build a decent sized grand stand on the site of the current dilapidated grand stand, while maintaining a proper distance for the sidelines. I also don't see why there couldn't be a decent sized grand stand on the opposite side as well, possibly build partially onto the roof of whatever that building is on the eastern side of the field (I really don't know the SMU campus buildings at all).

I mean, look at Molson Stadium at McGill. There are buildings right up along the side of the field on one end, and it looks like part of the stands are built over top of other surrounding buildings. It can be done.

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=rkj...07&lvl=2&sty=b

Not only that, but Molson Stadium isn't covered. Is it really that urgent that ours is? Couldn't it be built in a way that a roof structure could be added at a later date?

[hfx_chris]

I was curious, so I decided to try just that... so I took the stands from Molson Stadium in Montreal (before the renovations, mind you), and laid them over top of Husies Stadium at SMU. I moved the stands a bit closer to the field, eliminating the running oval, which my understanding is it's in rough shape anyway. Surely a new, better oval could be built at Gorsebrook Field.

Anyway, I don't see why this couldn't work. Or at least, something similar.




(Obviously that tower in the lower-left is in the way )

[Keith P.]

Within reason, in some ways the cost doesn't matter. HRM just blew $40 million on a totally unremarkable 4-pad minor hockey rink development. If that can be justified for that kind of money, then I'm sure a reasonable argument can be made for something in the $60M range.

It's a shame that the local universities really don't have much of a sports culture (Dal/MSVU) or are landlocked on a tiny campus (SMU). Now, I qualify that -- it would create a huge stink, but there is a large block of land across the street from SMU, the Gorsebrook lands, that are terribly underutilized and would make a fine site for a stadium for the Huskies and for the area overall. I dunno if new SMU Chancellor Bob Kelly is a football fan, but he heads up Bank of New York/Mellon, so I know financing would not be a problem...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

And you could still choose to renovate/rebuild/expand a $30 million stadium in 10 years.

I am not sure how well aluminum stands will stand up

Second, because the two most successful franchises in the CFL are in Montreal and Regina, I believe that you don't need a nice stadium to be successful in the CFL. Both teams play in old, cramped stadiums. Nobody goes to see the stadium, they go to see the game and experience the atmosphere. To further the point, the Argos play in the nicest stadium in Canada but are arguably the least successful franchise.

I know that with major league baseball, the franchises that moved into new stadiums (such as Jacobs Field and Camden Yards) saw big jumps in attendance. I think that you will see a similar trend in Winnipeg, Regina and Hamilton when they move into their new stadiums. I have gone on stadium tours in Green Bay and Indianapolis and enjoyed myself even without a game being played - the stadium does add to the atmosphere (I have been to a baseball game at Camden Yards, and the stadium definitely added to the atmosphere). The comments about Montreal and Toronto indicate that an intimate stadium is required- as with Percival Molson Stadium in Montreal.

It is like deciding to buy a car.

Why buy an Escalade or an Acura when a Corolla will do the job?
Why build a $120 million or a $60 million stadium when a $30 million stadium will do the job?

I would say the $120 million stadium is the Acura, the $60 million stadium is the Corolla and the $30 million stadium is like a Kia (not bad when it is new, but what about 5 - 10 years down the road?). I have a Corolla and I don't think that you can call a $30 million stadium a Corolla. It is a great reliable car

IMO a $30 million stadium would be sufficient for a CFL team, soccer tournaments and concerts. And HRM has a Corolla budget, not an Escalade budget.

I agree, that is why I think the HRM should build an economical, reliable stadium instead of going with the Kia.

These are just our personal opinions. If building an Empire type stadium would mean having a stadium in the HRM within the next two years then I would completely agree with you. With most things the HRM tends to go with the middle of the road so this is why I think that when they build a stadium it will be for a sports event and they will likely build a middle of the road stadium (which is probably best in my opinion).

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Within reason, in some ways the cost doesn't matter. HRM just blew $40 million on a totally unremarkable 4-pad minor hockey rink development. If that can be justified for that kind of money, then I'm sure a reasonable argument can be made for something in the $60M range.

It's a shame that the local universities really don't have much of a sports culture (Dal/MSVU) or are landlocked on a tiny campus (SMU). Now, I qualify that -- it would create a huge stink, but there is a large block of land across the street from SMU, the Gorsebrook lands, that are terribly underutilized and would make a fine site for a stadium for the Huskies and for the area overall. I dunno if new SMU Chancellor Bob Kelly is a football fan, but he heads up Bank of New York/Mellon, so I know financing would not be a problem...

Gorsebrook would be an excellent location, but like you said, it would raise a stink.

[brettinhalifax]

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[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by brettinhalifax

But I think a $30 million for a stadium with no long-term tenant and no guaranteed future event is an acceptable risk.

I can agree with that, but how do you get someone within the regional council to agree?

What about the FIFA World Women's Cup? You had me convinced that this was a viable option and I have been drawing my simple 3D models based on having an international FIFA size field. Now I even have dreams of Canada and Halifax hosting the 2034 FIFA World Men's Cup - I'll be on my last legs by then. You can't host the FIFA World Men's Cup with a $30 million BC Lion's Empire type stadium.