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  #221  
Old Posted Feb 18, 2013, 1:15 PM
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Does Penn have air rights to sell?
Possibly allow them to sell any rights they might have and use that to relocate, and the developer purchasing the rights could build a high rise atop this half of the station.

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  #222  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2013, 6:38 PM
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^ Yeah. 6M square feet or so.
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  #223  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2013, 11:39 PM
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Years ago, before the Penn Station in Manhattan existed, the main train station was in Jersey City. It had a fantastic European style train shed, since demolished. What a shame that they demolished the great train sheds and instead put the trains in a dungeon underground. I am annoyed that the new Farley plan does not seem to have the trains tracks open to the light at all. That is why, given the restrictions that the Farley building imposes on any changes due to its landmark status, the removal of MSG is even more imperative to create a proper train station for NYC once again, even though it never have a classic train shed.
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  #224  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2013, 12:00 AM
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I am annoyed that the new Farley plan does not seem to have the trains tracks open to the light at all.
That could be accomplished with a glass floor or glass paving system in the main hall, similar to the original Penn Station.
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  #225  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2013, 10:01 PM
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http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/130329971

Effort to replant Madison Square Garden tips off

The Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York launch a joint campaign to relocate Madison Square Garden
in order to rejuvenate Penn Station, which sits underneath it.



By Andrew J. Hawkins
March 21, 2013

Quote:
Imagine Penn Station, unburdened from the hulking arena squatting above, illuminated by natural light and expanded to accommodate the growing crowd of travelers and commuters that stream through its corridors daily.

That is the vision behind a new partnership between two of the city's leading planning organizations: the Regional Plan Association and the Municipal Art Society of New York, which launched a joint effort Thursday to advocate for the relocation of what they see as the city's least aesthetically appealing arena, Madison Square Garden, which sits atop the transit hub.

By moving the Garden to an alternate location—the backside of the old Farley Post Office across the street, for example, or the two-block long Morgan General Mail Facility on Ninth Avenue and West 30th Street—the planning groups hope to liberate Penn Station, "where overcrowded and grim public areas have plagued hundreds of thousands of daily commuters for nearly five decades," they say.

But time is running out.

"There's a very narrow window to address something that will be a problem decades into the future," said Chris Jones, vice president for research at the Regional Plan Association.

On April 10, the City's Planning Commission will hold a hearing on the Garden's land-use permit, which expired in January for the first time in 50 years. Under standard practices, a new permit would give the Garden's owners—a publicly traded company spun off by Cablevision in 2010—the rights to the site atop Penn Station in perpetuity. Instead, the planning advocates are calling for a 10-year extension, which would give the city and developers time to envision alternative locations.

"This is the Holy Grail of economic development," said Vin Cipolla, president of the Municipal Art Society. Under the new partnership, the Regional Plan Association and MAS will host a design challenge and a panel discussion to explore in greater detail options for Penn Station and Madison Square Garden.

A 10-year extension of the Garden's permit would be an unprecedented move by the City Planning Commission—no other New York stadium or arena operates under such temporary terms. Not surprisingly, the Garden's owner is uninterested in doing so—or in relocating.

"Madison Square Garden has been an integral part of New York City for more than 130 years and acts as a vital driver of the city's economy, supporting thousands of jobs and hosting over 400 annual events that attract 4 million people every year," a Garden spokesman said. "This fall, MSG will finish its three-year, top-to-bottom transformation of the Garden. Following the completion of this self-funded, nearly $1 billion transformation, it is incongruous to think that MSG would be considering moving."
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  #226  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 12:17 AM
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This might actually happen...

Stringer backs 10-year limit on Madison Square Garden permit extension
March 27, 2013 06:00PM



"Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer today recommended that the City Planning Commission endorse a proposal to expand Penn Station by shifting the location of Madison Square Garden, Crain’s reported...

... Rather, he supported a 10-year limit on the permit extension, which would allow developers and planners to brainstorm a plan to boost economic growth on the West Side. MSG’s permit to operate as an over 2,500-seat arena expired in January.

...“It is time to build a more spacious, attractive station that’s going to encourage [mass] transportation use,” Stringer told Crain’s.

...Manhattan Community Board 5 has said it wants MSG’s permit limited to 10 years..."
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  #227  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 12:35 AM
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So we're going to need to wait another decade before that nightmare that's called Penn Station has a chance of being rebuilt?

Why can't they just go ahead and do Moynihan station instead of renovating Penn? I really don't want to spend a decade waiting (then another decade while it's being built) and I'm tired of getting off the train and walking into that dump.
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  #228  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 2:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Submariner View Post
Why can't they just go ahead and do Moynihan station instead of renovating Penn?
Just to clarify, Moynihan is happening regardless, and the current Penn isn't going anywhere.

The MSG site prevents a grand entrance and aboveground concourse from being built, though, and blocks 6 million square feet of air rights for new towers.

But the final result will include everything you see in the current Penn. The difference would be an expanded underground and grand new aboveground space.

And, of course, the 6 million square feet of air rights will mean huge new towers. The previous Vornado plan called for two towers, each taller than ESB, flanking a gigantic new glass train station hall.
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  #229  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 3:38 AM
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This is why. The platforms are underneath Penn Station, between 7th and 8th. A Moynihan Station west of 8th would only touch the very end of the platforms (the West End Concourse, part of Moynihan, is in green). This means each platform would only have one point of access to Moynihan, leading to extreme crowding every time a train is departing. It's chaotic enough right now.

For this reason, Moynihan can't be a replacement for Penn. It can only be an addition that expands capacity.



Ten years seems like a long time, but Penn Station is one of the most congested, crowded sites on earth, rivaling spots in Tokyo. It takes time to come up with a plan that works for everybody, funds to build it, and a long time to build a giant new station when thousands of people must pass through daily. It will take even longer if the 10-year plan passes and the Dolans bring their inevitable lawsuit.

There's also the problem of connections. If Amtrak builds their Gateway tunnel to bring another two tracks beneath the Hudson, where do those trains go? It's been suggested that Penn could handle these trains already, if it had bigger concourses and better management. I'm hoping for a connection between Penn and Grand Central, which would be the key achievement of the entire NY rail system.
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Last edited by ardecila; Mar 28, 2013 at 3:50 AM.
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  #230  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 11:49 AM
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^^ Where the Gateway tunnels would go is shown below.

Here's a link to Stringer's recommendation. I haven't had a time to read through it, but Second Ave Sagas gave it a good review.

As for connecting Penn and GCT, I've always thought an extension of the S would be ideal. Connecting NY's two rail hubs, and Time Square would be perfect.


http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...teway-project/
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  #231  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 2:40 PM
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This is a great update yankeesfan1000. It is a great overview of all the projects west of the Moynihan station, which will be even busier in the near future.
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  #232  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 6:24 PM
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Move Madison Square Garden to give Penn Station more space: Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer

By Erin Durkin
March 27, 2013




Quote:
Madison Square Garden should be planted somewhere else, a city pol says.

Penn Station is bursting at the seams — and to give it room to expand, the city should refuse to give the Garden an indefinite permit to stay atop the cramped station, Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer argues.

Instead, the city should extend the Garden’s permit — which expired in January — for only 10 years while the arena looks for a new spot, Stringer says.

The Garden recently has sunk nearly $1 billion into a massive renovation, and any deal to move would probably involve big public subsidies.

But Stringer said it’s crucial for the arena to relocate for the third time in its history.

“It is time to build a more spacious, attractive and efficient station that will further encourage transit use, reduce driving into the city and spur economic growth,” he says.
“While we need to ensure the Garden always has a vibrant and accessible home in Manhattan, moving the arena is an important first step to improving Penn Station.”

Sites that have been suggested include Ninth Ave. and W. 30th St., now the site of a general mail facility, or behind the General Post Office between W. 31st and W. 33rd Sts.


The post office itself will be the future home of Amtrak operations now at Penn Station.

The City Planning Commission and City Council will have final say on the permit, while Stringer’s vote is advisory. The Council might resist giving the Garden what it wants because Cablevision, which arena owner James Dolan also runs, has experienced recent labor strife.

A spokesman for Madison Square Garden said the arena was being “unfairly singled out” since no other sports venue in the city has a time limit on its operations.

I'd personally prefer that the Garden be relocated even further west, but out of those two sites I like 9th Ave. and 30th St. the most, the whole point is to get the garden somewhere where it won't block up traffic more than it has to.
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  #233  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by yankeesfan1000 View Post
As for connecting Penn and GCT, I've always thought an extension of the S would be ideal. Connecting NY's two rail hubs, and Time Square would be perfect.
If you're gonna dig a tunnel, why not dig one that suburban trains can use? That way an NJT train can deliver riders to both Penn and GCT and then take them even further out to Stamford, or an LIRR train can deliver riders to Newark. It also decreases pedestrian traffic at both Penn and GCT, since fewer riders need to transfer to the subway.

The only reason nobody's talking about this is because you'd eventually have to integrate NJT and MTA. You'd basically need to create a new agency to run commuter services across the tri-state area, or come up with some confusing arrangement to let each agency's trains continue onto the other agency's territory.

The S can't really be extended, anyway.... it's boxed in at both ends.
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  #234  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2013, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
If you're gonna dig a tunnel, why not dig one that suburban trains can use? That way an NJT train can deliver riders to both Penn and GCT and then take them even further out to Stamford, or an LIRR train can deliver riders to Newark. It also decreases pedestrian traffic at both Penn and GCT, since fewer riders need to transfer to the subway.

The only reason nobody's talking about this is because you'd eventually have to integrate NJT and MTA. You'd basically need to create a new agency to run commuter services across the tri-state area, or come up with some confusing arrangement to let each agency's trains continue onto the other agency's territory.

The S can't really be extended, anyway.... it's boxed in at both ends.
The ESA tail tracks already extend to 37th St so a no station extension a few blocks to Penn shouldn't be that hard (or even terrifically expensive) once Water Tunnel 1 is shut down for overhaul. Combine with 2 new Hudson tunnels and a new Portal Bridge then the city would have all the capacity it needs for a good while.

Personally I'd vote for NJT to be rolled into the MTA along with PATH (the PA has no business running this or dumping amounts of money even the MTA would consider obscene into the WTC hub).
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  #235  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2013, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Just to clarify, Moynihan is happening regardless, and the current Penn isn't going anywhere.

The MSG site prevents a grand entrance and aboveground concourse from being built, though, and blocks 6 million square feet of air rights for new towers.

But the final result will include everything you see in the current Penn. The difference would be an expanded underground and grand new aboveground space.

And, of course, the 6 million square feet of air rights will mean huge new towers. The previous Vornado plan called for two towers, each taller than ESB, flanking a gigantic new glass train station hall.
So Moynihan will then be an expansion of Penn? Will it serve Amtrak?
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  #236  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2013, 10:07 PM
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Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.
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  #237  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2013, 11:40 PM
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While we're in fantasy territory... through route the 7 with the L? You'd have to switch the L to IRT rolling stock and rebuild some platforms, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Secaucus.
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  #238  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Just a thought, but it would be awesome to see the 33rd St leg of PATH extended through the new Hudson tunnel back into New Jersey tunneling under JFK or Bergenline through Union City, West NY terminating in Cliffside Park or Palisades Park. NJT bus service wold hate the idea, but would/could spark massive investment into those cities.
PATH is locked in to the 33rd St terminus due to subsequent subway construction directly conflicting with any ROW for extension.
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  #239  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
While we're in fantasy territory... through route the 7 with the L? You'd have to switch the L to IRT rolling stock and rebuild some platforms, but it's a hell of a lot easier than going to Secaucus.
Another proposal I've seen is to extend the 7 to a new terminal at 9th Ave/14th St and create a level transfer with the L which would be extended to Secaucus. In theory this would better distribute the NJ L train ridership amongst the 7 and Manhattan trunk lines.
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  #240  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2013, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by k1052 View Post
The ESA tail tracks already extend to 37th St so a no station extension a few blocks to Penn shouldn't be that hard (or even terrifically expensive) once Water Tunnel 1 is shut down for overhaul. Combine with 2 new Hudson tunnels and a new Portal Bridge then the city would have all the capacity it needs for a good while.

Personally I'd vote for NJT to be rolled into the MTA along with PATH (the PA has no business running this or dumping amounts of money even the MTA would consider obscene into the WTC hub).
Theres just one problem , the different voltages and power sources would make inner connecting the systems hard and expensive. Sure Tunneling is easy , but everything is a pain sadly. As for NJT being merged into the MTA , what is with New Yorkers always trying to merge NJ agencies in NYC.....it makes no sense and pisses us off on this side of the Hudson. Same with the PA , its still better shape then the MTA ever will be. Sure the WTC is a boondoggle but that's no reason to merge the PATH into the MTA.... You can merge the fares but that's about it , other then that , what would NY gain from a Jersey Centric system , and a New Jersey Agency.....? Sounds like New York trying to "state" grab again....
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