Sports in Canadian culture

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

It's the idea that everything Canadian is untouchable.

You're simply not listening to what people are saying to you. There's a huge difference between a culture and a product/company. The former is certainly something that should be protected at all costs. The latter two are expendable.

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Your last sentence makes no sense. If an NFL team comes to Toronto and people like me who don't watch the CFL now watch a new NFL team, how has the "culture" changed? Unless you force me to sit down and watch the grey cup now I'm not contributing anything.

How has it not changed? You've replaced home grown domestic culture with an imported one. Do you honestly think anyone on this planet thinks the NFL is a Canadian cultural phenomenon? No one looks at an NFL game and says: look at that Canadiana. It's American. How is this not obvious to you?

If everyone in Canada had so much contempt/indifference to our domestic league as you do we'd have no Grey Cup, no national football league, a home grown sport would die out, and a part of our culture would die with it. Of course the culture would change.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Allan83

In his case that’s the whole point. Wannabeism is a form of compensating behaviour to deal with personal inadequacies. There is no factual truth to what he’s saying, as I’m sure you know. He’s created a fantasy world for himself that allows him to feel powerful and superior, at least in his own mind.

While I don't at all agree with his views and think that too many views like this leads to cultural death rather than evolution. It is, in a sense, a reflection of the purest form of consumerism/acceptance of advertising (i.e. being drawn to the richest/most powerful/best-marketed product).

The problem with this view is that unless you have a vey niche product than other countries don't really care about, the cultural output of larger/richer nations will always win the day. That is, if you view your own country's production/culture as something that has value.

Rest assured, if Americans actually liked hockey en masse like they do football, we'd likely be down to 1, maybe 2 teams post-90s vying for originally Canada's hockey trophy...

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

When I watch a sporting event, I want it to be the very best the world has to offer.

If you would rather watch pre-season NFL (which is terrible, sloppy, low-scoring football played by training camp fodder) than a good mid-season CFL game or a potentially classic Grey Cup, then you are obviously full of shit.

Your claim that all you care about is quality is truly laughable. Your mind is obviously closed.

[suburbanite]

What I'm saying is right now, sitting here, I literally contribute nothing to the CFL culture. I don't support a team, buy merchandise, watch any games. If I now watched a new NFL team in Toronto have I taken away from CFL culture? I didn't have anything to offer in the first place so it's not like I've sacrificed my contributions to a Canadian League in support of a new American one instead.

I also prefer to watch the Premier League over MLS, but I guess I got sucked in by all that dam British marketing here.

I'm obviously in the minority but once again people have preferences for different games and that's to be expected.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'm not going to support what I find to be an inferior product just because it's Canadian. The same way I don't believe in protecting the big 3 Canadian telecom companies just because they're Canadian and not evil American corporations.

When I watch a sporting event, I want it to be the very best the world has to offer. If Canadians can supply that product as they do in the NHL then that's fantastic, but if not, I'm going to look elsewhere.

.

Do as you wish but it's such a weird mentality.

I mean, should American soccer fans boycott the MLS simply because it's far from the best league in the world?

And what if you hitch your wagon to, say, the English Premier League, thinking it's the best, and ignore the Spanish or German league, then once another league becomes better (as some believe has happened - the Bundesliga is apparently the world's best soccer league now...), do you all of a sudden start ignoring the EPL, adopt a new favourite team in Germany, and Bob's your uncle?

And in any event, this "best league in the world" thing is a bit odd and is very much an (North) American fabrication, only made possible by the fact that most of the sports are only played here anyway (or chiefly played here), and so it's easy to claim the best league is in your country when you're one of the only places in the world to play the sport, or you invented it and were playing it decades before anyone else.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

What I'm saying is right now, sitting here, I literally contribute nothing to the CFL culture. I don't support a team, buy merchandise, watch any games. If I now watched a new NFL team in Toronto have I taken away from CFL culture? I didn't have anything to offer in the first place so it's not like I've sacrificed my contributions to a Canadian League in support of a new American one instead.

I also prefer to watch the Premier League over MLS, but I guess I got sucked in by all that dam British marketing here.

I'm obviously in the minority but once again people have preferences for different games and that's to be expected.

What you're really saying it that you personally have already abandoned this part of our culture. You've become more American in your cultural interests and less Canadian culturally. That you don't care only means that our culture is of little to no value to you. It is what it is, but it's a bit much to expect people to look upon this as no big deal.

If you supported a new Toronto NFL team you'd certainly be taking away from Canadian culture because you'd be supporting an imported culture at the expense of the domestic culture. It would be competing directly with Toronto's football team, the Argonauts, for money, revenue, and attention. It's naive to think that it wouldn't cause irreparable harm. It has the potential to be quite devastating.

If you like the NFL that's fine, but go to Buffalo to watch it. If steps are taken to bring a team north of the border, all hell's going to break lose. People are not going to stand idle and watch what took 140 years to build come crashing down.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I'm not going to support what I find to be an inferior product just because it's Canadian. The same way I don't believe in protecting the big 3 Canadian telecom companies just because they're Canadian and not evil American corporations.

When I watch a sporting event, I want it to be the very best the world has to offer. If Canadians can supply that product as they do in the NHL then that's fantastic, but if not, I'm going to look elsewhere.

Edit: BTW I'm in no way suggesting that the CFL should just be dismantled in favor of the NFL. If people would prefer to watch the Argonauts over an NFL team in Toronto that's their preference and perfectly reasonable. If an NFL team came to Toronto and became immensely popular, then let that become a new part of out sporting culture.

I recognize this mindset, and feel much the same way about some things. Though not about North American football: for me, a notable example is music. Why would I bother spending a moment of my precious life listening to Canadian music when British and Irish music since 1963 exists, especially when most of the groundbreaking and wonderful groups/performers have no analogs in Canada anyway?

I've always pushed back against being cajoled into supporting something because it's the "home team," and I think a lot of people instinctively do the same. Though not everything in this discussion has to be binary, of course. Lots of people like both the CFL and the NFL, I'm sure. But it's not a stretch to claim that what we really do well in Canada is hockey, and that's mostly it. It's a shame I personally just can't get into hockey, in spite of having grown up playing it, because that would probably make me more comfortable in my Canadian skin.

Just out of curiosity, I checked the front pages to various newspaper sites in southern Ontario on Sunday evening and Monday morning, and guess what? Stratford's and London's didn't even mention the Grey Cup, but instead had a story about the Detroit Lions game. You had to click on the Sports section to get news about the Grey Cup.

Is that sad or infuriating? I can see why it would be, but do you think the same thing happens during the NHL playoffs? Of course not. If Toronto got an NFL team, would it dominate the front page of the internet site of Stratford's paper if it made it to the Superbowl? To ask the question is to answer it. Again, I can see why that would raise blood pressure among the fans in the west, but what are you going to do?

I recall one time in a pub in Taiwan when I was teaching ESL there, a guy from Saskatchewan asked me where I was from. When I said Canada, then Hamilton, he immediately exclaimed ah, so you're a Tiger-Cats fan. I shook my head, both at the presumption of his question and in response to it. He then launched into a tirade about how the CFL was better than the NFL, and that people in Ontario were jerks for preferring the NFL. More presumption. I'll never forget how he practically shrieked "what?!?!?!" when I said I didn't like either, and then, more quietly, "oh," when the realization dawned on him that he'd picked a fight that no one was interested in pursuing, least of all, me. He was drunk. Alcohol does that to you.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do as you wish but it's such a weird mentality.

I mean, should American soccer fans boycott the MLS simply because it's far from the best league in the world?

I've always found that mentality bizarre as well. It smacks of cultural insecurity rather than cultural maturity. You can add NCAA football to that list as well. It's not the NFL either yet 45 million Americans turn up at games each year. They support it because it's part of their culture. It doesn't have to be the best football available on the planet to be of value.

It's also quite possible that 40 years from now the NBA won't be the premier basketball league in the world. It might be a Euro league or maybe even one in China. Should we suddenly stop watching the NBA?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I recognize this mindset, and feel much the same way about some things. Though not about North American football: for me, a notable example is music. Why would I bother spending a moment of my precious life listening to Canadian music when British and Irish music since 1963 exists, especially when most of the groundbreaking and wonderful groups/performers have no analogs in Canada anyway?

I've always pushed back against being cajoled into supporting something because it's the "home team," and I think a lot of people instinctively do the same. Though not everything in this discussion has to be binary, of course. Lots of people like both the CFL and the NFL, I'm sure. But it's not a stretch to claim that what we really do well in Canada is hockey, and that's mostly it. It's a shame I personally just can't get into hockey, in spite of having grown up playing it, because that would probably make me more comfortable in my Canadian skin.

Just out of curiosity, I checked the front pages to various newspaper sites in southern Ontario on Sunday evening and Monday morning, and guess what? Stratford's and London's didn't even mention the Grey Cup, but instead had a story about the Detroit Lions game. You had to click on the Sports section to get news about the Grey Cup.

Is that sad or infuriating? I can see why it would be, but do you think the same thing happens during the NHL playoffs? Of course not. If Toronto got an NFL team, would it dominate the front page of the internet site of Stratford's paper if it made it to the Superbowl? To ask the question is to answer it. Again, I can see why that would raise blood pressure among the fans in the west, but what are you going to do?

I recall one time in a pub in Taiwan when I was teaching ESL there, a guy from Saskatchewan asked me where I was from. When I said Canada, then Hamilton, he immediately exclaimed ah, so you're a Tiger-Cats fan. I shook my head, both at the presumption of his question and in response to it. He then launched into a tirade about how the CFL was better than the NFL, and that people in Ontario were jerks for preferring the NFL. More presumption. I'll never forget how he practically shrieked "what?!?!?!" when I said I didn't like either, and then, more quietly, "oh," when the realization dawned on him that he'd picked a fight that no one was interested in pursuing, least of all, me. He was drunk. Alcohol does that to you.

I broadly agree with you - there is no checklist of things you absolutely have to like if you are Canadian.

That said, the adamancy of much of the pro-NFL crowd in Canada strikes me as overkill most of the time. I mean, why are they all over CFL forums and such saying the CFL sucks and the NFL is the best?

I am not a fan of basketball (which I know you like), but I don't go around saying that it's sucks as a sport and that Toronto shouldn't have a team in the NBA.

Honest to god, I have actually met people outside the stadium at the Grey Cup who were ''protesting"' (sic) that the CFL sucked and that the NFL was better. They were decked out in NFL team jerseys and had made signs with anti-CFL messages on them.

It's just... weird.

But sure, Canadians are allowed to prefer the NFL over the CFL, Krispy Kreme over Tim Hortons.

There are Brazilians who hate soccer and love baseball, and Argentines who prefer the charleston over tango.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do as you wish but it's such a weird mentality.

I mean, should American soccer fans boycott the MLS simply because it's far from the best league in the world?

And what if you hitch your wagon to, say, the English Premier League, thinking it's the best, and ignore the Spanish or German league, then once another league becomes better (as some believe has happened - the Bundesliga is apparently the world's best soccer league now...), do you all of a sudden start ignoring the EPL, adopt a new favourite team in Germany, and Bob's your uncle?

And in any event, this "best league in the world" thing is a bit odd and is very much an (North) American fabrication, only made possible by the fact that most of the sports are only played here anyway (or chiefly played here), and so it's easy to claim the best league is in your country when you're one of the only places in the world to play the sport, or you invented it and were playing it decades before anyone else.

I should have said Champion's League probably. I don't know how it is for everyone else, but personally I don't watch soccer because I have a favourite team (hell I don't even watch the Leafs sometimes if a better game is on). I watch because I have a fascination with the level of athleticism and talent that the players have. For that reason, yes I will search for the best league around regardless of whether it's England one year, or Germany the next.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

I should have said Champion's League probably. I don't know how it is for everyone else, but personally I don't watch soccer because I have a favourite team (hell I don't even watch the Leafs sometimes if a better game is on). I watch because I have a fascination with the level of athleticism and talent that the players have. For that reason, yes I will search for the best league around regardless of whether it's England one year, or Germany the next.

You do realize that the differences between EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and Serie A and even the Brazilian league, etc. are not that great, and that any given game in one league can potentially be a lot better than a game in the league that has been fractionally top-rated at the moment?

Even a game in the French or Dutch league can be better than an EPL game in some cases.

[elly63]

"As far as talent ... the talent here is comparable to the NFL, it's just consistency," Williams said. "From what I saw out there, these guys can run, these guys can hit, these guys know what they're doing.

"Football is football. There are a couple of differences in the game but for the most part it's just terminology."

Ricky Williams

"I train a number of CFL players in the off-season. Some who have been on NFL rosters and some who could be on NFL rosters. There is no doubt in my mind anyway, that there is at least 10-15 players on every CFL roster who could play in the NFL. Why dont they? Because they do not fit the profile, that being size, how much they can bench press, or how they look in equipment. If you are not an NFL draft pick, or come from a big NCAA school you do not get any attention."

Lorne Goldenberg
Pro Strength Coach

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Just out of curiosity, I checked the front pages to various newspaper sites in southern Ontario on Sunday evening and Monday morning, and guess what? Stratford's and London's didn't even mention the Grey Cup, but instead had a story about the Detroit Lions game. You had to click on the Sports section to get news about the Grey Cup.

Is that sad or infuriating? I can see why it would be, but do you think the same thing happens during the NHL playoffs? Of course not. If Toronto got an NFL team, would it dominate the front page of the internet site of Stratford's paper if it made it to the Superbowl? To ask the question is to answer it. Again, I can see why that would raise blood pressure among the fans in the west, but what are you going to do?

This is actually a good example and what I was trying to get at, albeit not very coherently. Anecdotally, I find very little CFL support exists in Ontario outside of Hamilton. No one ever wore CFL jerseys in high school but Patriots, Colts, Saints etc would always be seen. There were always tons of SuperBowl parties to go to but never a grey cup one. To me it seems like the CFL is already pretty fringe in Ontario's sporting culture. The CFL can still exist as it does in Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and wherever it does get support if Toronto had an NFL team. I don't see why this would change because people in Ontario who used to watch American NFL teams are now watching a Toronto NFL team.

[esquire]

I interrupt this discussion to provide links to an excerpt of Ed Willes' new book about the CFL expansion era:

Overview - http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Zo...409/story.html

Part I - http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Zo...205/story.html

Part II - http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Zo...207/story.html

Part III - http://www.theprovince.com/sports/fo...209/story.html

Glad to see that a book has finally been written about this crazy time in the CFL's existence.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You do realize that the differences between EPL, Bundesliga, La Liga and Serie A and even the Brazilian league, etc. are not that great, and that any given game in one league can potentially be a lot better than a game in the league that has been fractionally top-rated at the moment?

Even a game in the French or Dutch league can be better than an EPL game in some cases.

No doubt they can, but I don't really have the time to watch 5 leagues and the Premier and Champions League are top level and broadcasted in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Seriously? I played football through four years of high school and I think I might actually know what I enjoy watching, and it definitely has nothing to do with the marketing. I just watched a game on Sunday that was one of the most exciting sporting events in recent memory. If you think Ricky Ray vs. Calvillo is anywhere near the same level of skill that a Brady vs. Manning matchup offers I don't know what to tell you. It's a completely different level.

The most exciting in recent memory? It's over the top hyperbole like this that leads people to think pro-NFL Canadians are just attracted by "shiny objects".

I watched quite a bit of that game on Sunday night - the first half was a one-sided snoozer full of miscues and blunders by the Patriots which explains why the Broncos had such a crushing lead.

Admittedly the Grey Cup, aside from the hype about the Riders and their noble loyal fans see them win it at home, was something of a snoozer as well.

But the Argos-Ticats eastern final was every bit as exciting if not more than the Patriots-Broncos game, as it went down to the wire and featured the lead changing many times, not just one team dominating a half and the other team dominating most of the other and winning in the end.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

No doubt they can, but I don't really have the time to watch 5 leagues and the Premier and Champions League are top level and broadcasted in English.

So now we're moving away from "nothing but the best" and closer to "stuff Suburbanite likes"...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I've always found that mentality bizarre as well. It smacks of cultural insecurity rather than cultural maturity. You can add NCAA football to that list as well. It's not the NFL either yet 45 million Americans turn up at games each year. They support it because it's part of their culture. It doesn't have to be the best football available on the planet to be of value.

It's also quite possible that 40 years from now the NBA won't be the premier basketball league in the world. It might be a Euro league or maybe even one in China. Should we suddenly stop watching the NBA?

Come to think of it, I have never, ever heard an American say that they ignore NCAA football because it's inferior to the NFL. Nor have I ever heard anyone say that NCAA Final Four was mickey mouse because the players aren't as good as in the NBA.

Never.

[suburbanite]

Blunders in the first half? You mean like the qb fumbling twice or snapping the ball right past the qb?

I was thinking excitement in terms of one the best quarterbacks of all time overcoming his largest career deficit. Or perhaps the smartest and most unorthodox coaches rallying the team and getting them back in the game with a third-string runningback. Maybe it was the Knowshon Moreno limping of the field after every play in the fourth quarter and still coming back to rush for 220 yards.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So now we're moving away from "nothing but the best" and closer to "stuff Suburbanite likes"...

Now you're really being nitpicky. You yourself said the difference can be negligible at any point. So do I watch the one that is on tv and being broadcasted in English? Most likely.