Transit Fantasies

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Either way, closing Davie or Pacific/Beach to traffic to run a street car down them would only leave on option for through traffic on the southern edge of the West End.

Side note, it's not a given that a street has to be closed to through traffic if a streetcar runs down it. Melbourne has this working pretty well in their downtown core, and it's not as though the 5 trolley bus has its own ROW.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Side note, it's not a given that a street has to be closed to through traffic if a streetcar runs down it. Melbourne has this working pretty well in their downtown core, and it's not as though the 5 trolley bus has its own ROW.

Oh, I agree. For Davie specifically, I said earlier that removing the street parking and running the street car curbside would be practical.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I wouldn't call Melbourne a shining example of tram operation.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I wouldn't call Melbourne a shining example of tram operation.

IMO, the question shouldn't be "how many trams are hit per day", the question should always be "given an equivalent bus network, are there more or fewer incidents".

According to Translink, they have 8-10 preventable (meaning driver at fault) bus accidents a month. I couldn't find any statistics for unpreventable bus accidents (i.e. people crashing into busses), but it's almost certanly non-zero.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Oh, I agree. For Davie specifically, I said earlier that removing the street parking and running the street car curbside would be practical.

Drake being a back lane is a downside, but not impossible to work with if you just want 2 travel lanes. Probably would get a lot of angry people, and a slow crawl during garbage pickup, so you'd want to make sure that stuff is done at night if possible.

No reason Nelson has to be one-way from Granville onwards.

Davie is too narrow, as it's basically the minimum possible width for a 4-lane street (~12m road, 3m sidewalk). That leaves 1.5m for a station- except everyone has retail signs and other junk out on the sidewalk, so realistically, the entire 3m is used for walking most of the time.

You'd have a very narrow sidewalk at the station locations. Could counteract this by making sure developments have at least another 1.5m back from the street.
Some of the newer towers already do this, as the West End Plan recommends this, but it's still a problem on most of the street. Maybe when the entire street is redeveloped in a few decades?


Remember that the streets here are the oldest in the city, and Davie, Robson, etc. essentially started off as residential streets that were gradually upgraded .

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Davie is too narrow, as it's basically the minimum possible width for a 4-lane street (~12m road, 3m sidewalk). That leaves 1.5m for a station- except everyone has retail signs and other junk out on the sidewalk, so realistically, the entire 3m is used for walking most of the time.

Remember that the streets here are the oldest in the city, and Davie, Robson, etc. essentially started off as residential streets that were gradually upgraded .

But they started off as residential streets with streetcars.


[Davie, c1908, [Vancouver Public Library]


Robson c1893 [City of Vancouver Archives]

The problem with using Robson today is the pedestrian plaza outside the Art Gallery. It would have to be abandoned or significantly altered to run transit through it again.

And while I can see the currently proposed streetcar route makes sense, I don't see how running a tram on fixed rails in mixed traffic on Davie makes more sense than the current trolley buses, or future ev buses.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

IMO, the question shouldn't be "how many trams are hit per day", the question should always be "given an equivalent bus network, are there more or fewer incidents".

According to Translink, they have 8-10 preventable (meaning driver at fault) bus accidents a month. I couldn't find any statistics for unpreventable bus accidents (i.e. people crashing into busses), but it's almost certanly non-zero.

Sure, but one can easily assume that 80+ unpreventable accidents/month in Vancouver would've already made the news; the numbers say something about either Melbourne or trams, and it's not a good thing.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sure, but one can easily assume that 80+ unpreventable accidents/month in Vancouver would've already made the news; the numbers say something about either Melbourne or trams, and it's not a good thing.

I actually read the graph wrong, it's not 8-10 per month, it's 8-10 per month per million service km which is a far more useful metric. I personally don't know how many service km Translink does a month with busses, however that doesn't really matter.

If we take a look at Yarra Trams' safety record document from 2017, we can crunch the numbers for them and compare:

2017:
26.9 million travelled kilometres
977 collisions with road vehicles

(977 collisions/year) / (12 months/year) / (26.9 M km) = approx. 3 collisions per month per million service km

I assume the 977 number includes both preventable and non-preventable accidents.

The numbers look better to me. I imagine the media reports look bad because "3 a day!!!!" is an exciting headline, but it might just be media sensationalism. They seem to be good at that in Australia (they gave us Rupert Murdoch after all!)

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Changing City

But they started off as residential streets with streetcars.


[Davie, c1908, [Vancouver Public Library]


Robson c1893 [City of Vancouver Archives]

The problem with using Robson today is the pedestrian plaza outside the Art Gallery. It would have to be abandoned or significantly altered to run transit through it again.

And while I can see the currently proposed streetcar route makes sense, I don't see how running a tram on fixed rails in mixed traffic on Davie makes more sense than the current trolley buses, or future ev buses.

We have been arguing about how to make sure streetcars on Davie have dedicated ROW...

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by fredinno

We have been arguing about how to make sure streetcars on Davie have dedicated ROW...

Which probably can't be done, just like it isn't intended for much of the streetcar Downtown. It obviously can where there's a dedicated right-of-way already (False Creek, 1st Avenue, Arbutus Greenway) but elsewhere if there ever is a streetcar, it will almost certainly have to be in mixed traffic. Although, this being the fantasy thread, you can magically make all those other requirements for street use magically disappear! (Except if there's a fire the fire trucks will still be on the street as that's where the hydrants are).

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Changing City

The problem with using Robson today is the pedestrian plaza outside the Art Gallery. It would have to be abandoned or significantly altered to run transit through it again.

And while I can see the currently proposed streetcar route makes sense, I don't see how running a tram on fixed rails in mixed traffic on Davie makes more sense than the current trolley buses, or future ev buses.

There really isn't much of a point capacity or speed wise to make a rubber to rails switch for trolley busses, however there's definitely a point to be made that rail transit is more comfortable, more prestigious, more permanent, and c'mon it's trains! Choo choo!

In all seriousness though, rail vs bus can make the difference when a tourist chooses between an Uber or transit, a bus-adverse senior chooses between driving or transit, or a young family chooses to go out at all, all based on perception. In our downtown core, maybe that makes a difference, I couldn't say.

[GenWhy?]

Use Drake until Burrard, then onto Burnaby Street in a dedicated ROW all the way to English Bay. West End alleys are so wide you can park on either side and drive a car down the centre. Curb to curb is I think 30 feet?

All the way to 2nd Beach, take N. Lagoon Drive to Stanley Park. Loop with the Georgia to Waterfront route. Loop complete.

[GenWhy?]

Leads into solving the car issue with Stanley Park. Win win!

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Davie is too narrow, as it's basically the minimum possible width for a 4-lane street (~12m road, 3m sidewalk). That leaves 1.5m for a station- except everyone has retail signs and other junk out on the sidewalk, so realistically, the entire 3m is used for walking most of the time.

Davie could also just be left at one lane in each direction, with a curb bump-out at the station locations. Davie is a better option for the streetcar than Drake and that streetcar will need to run in mixed traffic.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

Use Drake until Burrard, then onto Burnaby Street in a dedicated ROW all the way to English Bay. West End alleys are so wide you can park on either side and drive a car down the centre. Curb to curb is I think 30 feet?

All the way to 2nd Beach, take N. Lagoon Drive to Stanley Park. Loop with the Georgia to Waterfront route. Loop complete.

That's certainly the best way to get the original Drake streetcar past Granville.

But if the street car is supposed to be a tourist draw you probably want it running down commercial areas. In that case, running it down a sleepy residential street in Burnaby doesn't make sense to me.

Originally Posted by chowhou

There really isn't much of a point capacity or speed wise to make a rubber to rails switch for trolley busses, however there's definitely a point to be made that rail transit is more comfortable, more prestigious, more permanent, and c'mon it's trains! Choo choo!

In all seriousness though, rail vs bus can make the difference when a tourist chooses between an Uber or transit, a bus-adverse senior chooses between driving or transit, or a young family chooses to go out at all, all based on perception. In our downtown core, maybe that makes a difference, I couldn't say.

Yeah, I would only suggest at-grade rails in tourist areas. People who are visiting will take the transit they see. On a bus route even with high frequencies there is a chance a tourist walking down Robson or Davie won't ever see the 5 or 6 when they are close to a stop. But if there are rails in the street, it's an ever-present promise to tourists that a streetcar is coming and hopefully soon.

[GenWhy?]

Just thinking it's either Burnaby St with a ROW or Davie with a ROW and no ability to have expanded sidewalks or patios as it kinda is now. Without a dedicated ROW this is a no-go - just keep the bus.

[Migrant_Coconut]

If Burnaby, I'd advise Maxine until Thurlow and Snaw-Naw-As before Denman - that way you cut straight across the arterials without messing up the bus routes or the Beach bike lane.

[Tvisforme]

Throwing this into the mix for the North Shore rapid transit concepts:

Vancouver Sun: Squamish Nation plans to develop 350 acres, most of it in North Vancouver and West Vancouver

The Squamish Nation, which is behind the high-density Sen̓áḵw project at Kits Point, is making plans to develop 350 more acres of its land on the North Shore, the District of Squamish, and the Sunshine Coast.
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Details are still scarce as the Nation begins a year-long land-use planning phase, but it says the sites could be residential, commercial or industrial, and that long-range capital plans will also include amenities such as parks, schools, community centres and health clinics....

IMHO, if the development around the Lions Gate Bridge area is even half what is proposed for Sen̓áḵw, a future North Shore SkyTrain line would have to include a station in this area (rather than having Norgate as the westernmost point).

EDIT: The Norgate station is in reference to proposals to cross the inlet west of Waterfront and then turn east to Lonsdale Quay. It would seem a given that a line coming from the east (after crossing at Second Narrows) would extend west to Park Royal.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

Throwing this into the mix for the North Shore rapid transit concepts:

Vancouver Sun: Squamish Nation plans to develop 350 acres, most of it in North Vancouver and West Vancouver



IMHO, if the development around the Lions Gate Bridge area is even half what is proposed for Sen̓áḵw, a future North Shore SkyTrain line would have to include a station in this area (rather than having Norgate as the westernmost point).

These areas weren't already slated for development?

Not sure why the RV park is outside the development area despite being inside the reserve.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

IMHO, if the development around the Lions Gate Bridge area is even half what is proposed for Sen̓áḵw, a future North Shore SkyTrain line would have to include a station in this area (rather than having Norgate as the westernmost point).

There will almost certainly be a station at Capilano Rd. and at Park Royal which should be more than enough capacity IMO. Say what you want about West Vancouver council but they wouldn't block a station at Park Royal.

If Metrotown can be well served by 3 stations, the lower Capilano can probably get by with 2 stations.

Originally Posted by fredinno

These areas weren't already slated for development?

All the Lower Mainland reserves are wildcards, there is no "slated for development". Our chad neoliberal FN brothers and sisters have no regulations or restrictions, they can build whatever they want whenever they want within their jurisdiction.