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  #2361  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2008, 1:42 AM
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^ All the info you need about them here.
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  #2362  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2008, 3:16 AM
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How was none of this reported while it was going on? I'm not too keen on our transit agency, in essence, taking control of a failing company without public oversite.
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  #2363  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2008, 6:15 AM
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they were bankrupt b/c the overseer of Colorado Rail was pulling in 37,000 K a friggin month for himself.
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  #2364  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2008, 6:56 PM
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So I wonder why TriMet did not just use the same vehicles they used up in Seattle?
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  #2365  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2008, 7:52 PM
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This project was a mistake from the start. TriMet should have snubbed Washington County planners and politicians who pushed it forward. I can't believe we, as a region, would spend over $160 for a commuter rail that serves only 5 suburban stations and anticipated to carry no more than 4,000 passengers a day.

The bottom line is that a project the relies on shared-use tracks is destined to fail.. there's only one manufacturer of DMUs (and we know how reliable they are) and the FRA requires severely heavier rail cars for this type of shared operation so that foreign companies don't bother manufacturing them. MAX has been mostly a good investment because it provides it's own right of way and can grow to meet demand. This project can't grow without double tracking most of it and doubling the price tag.
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  #2366  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2008, 9:52 AM
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Trimet couldn't use massive freight cabs + huge bi-level coaches like the Sounder because the line has a bridge that cannot support the enormous weight of those locomotives - 140 tons for the locos plus 60 tons for each passenger car (seating only 140 each). DMUs are far, far lighter, and much more fuel efficient (so you don't have a 3,000 horsepower train pulling only 1 half-full passenger car).

The FRA funding formula wouldn't pay the extra money to build a proper line, in other words. And why the heck did the Buy America law even count here, since there was effectively no reputable mfgr?? We got screwed, from both ends.

Since we practically own the company, I think we should give it to Oregon Ironworks and then we can become the USA's only producer of streetcars and modern passenger DMUs!
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  #2367  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
This project was a mistake from the start. TriMet should have snubbed Washington County planners and politicians who pushed it forward. I can't believe we, as a region, would spend over $160 for a commuter rail that serves only 5 suburban stations and anticipated to carry no more than 4,000 passengers a day.

The bottom line is that a project the relies on shared-use tracks is destined to fail.. there's only one manufacturer of DMUs (and we know how reliable they are) and the FRA requires severely heavier rail cars for this type of shared operation so that foreign companies don't bother manufacturing them. MAX has been mostly a good investment because it provides it's own right of way and can grow to meet demand. This project can't grow without double tracking most of it and doubling the price tag.

Thats not necessarily true; Caltrain and Sounder are extremely successful on tracks that are far more congested. If we can get a local, reputable company making these new trains, it would be a very cost-effective way to expand rail transit in Oregon, as well as other states. Refurbishing train tracks does cost money, but is cheaper than building new.

However, I have heard arguments that WES misses a lot of juicy locations, such as Washington Square Mall. Thats really unfortunate, as "commuter rail" as a service for only 9-5 commuters seems like a poor idea in this day and age. Service should be designed to fit with modern lifestyles, where more travel is down for school, shopping, and other activities. In Europe they don't even use the term "commuter rail." Its just Intercity rail, and runs frequently all day.
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  #2368  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2008, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
If we can get a local, reputable company making these new trains, it would be a very cost-effective way to expand rail transit in Oregon, as well as other states. Refurbishing train tracks does cost money, but is cheaper than building new.
I disagree. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that because the tracks are owned by the RR, they have all the bargaining power they need. Thus, they require a $50+ million insurance policy to indemnify their actions in case of a wreck. For WES, that's probably makes up more than half of the operating costs. As with all transit operations, operating costs are the gifts that keep on costing.. With much more expensive double tracking, it's possible that WES service could absorb some of this incredible cost and result in a lower cost per passenger (assuming there's demand in the corridor), but the operating cost will still be well above MAX, most bus lines and certainly higher than streetcar, I venture to say..
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  #2369  
Old Posted Dec 17, 2008, 4:02 PM
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i was under the impression that this project added a second track for most of the route. there are definitely 2 tracks along 217 near allen.

i have mixed feelings about this project, and have from the beginning. yes, it's theoretically cheaper and, yes, it could be the start of service to salem (and beyond), but it reduces any political will for LRT in that corridor - LRT which could reach some high-value areas that WES misses (washington square, kruse way, bridgeport village). but now that we've gone with WES, LRT won't happen in that corridor for a very long time.
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  #2370  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 6:09 AM
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Lightbulb

I just wanted to add that the WES RR line is an ACTIVE freight railroad corridor. There's sufficient freight traffic making time separation schemes for running non FRA compliant DMU or light rail trains impossible. Others have pointed out that the RR line is owned by a private RR corporation, not by the public transit agency.

It's true TriMet could have bought Bombardier BiLevel cars and diesel locomotives. I'm not so sure I agree with the statement that several bridges aren't strong enough to support these cars. Freight cars weigh much more and run down this line every day. But operational costs of using DMUs with 300-350 HP diesels will be significantly cheaper than 3000-3500 HP diesel locomotives. Getting 2 mpg vs 2 gpm, ie, 4 times better fuel milage. The Colorado Railcar DMU will also be much quieter than a diesel locomotive.

Bombardier's cars would be a better choice if TriMet thought ridership would grow faster in the future. The TRE in Dallas-Fort Worth ridership is up to over 11,000 riders per day, using 4 Bombardier cars behind the locomotive during rush hours. The diesel locomotive can pull 10 Bombardier cars, at which point it reaches maximum fuel efficency.
But TriMet is planning on using 1 DMU car initially, adding a second trailer car on the train with the highest ridership. It's also a startup line, the first commuter rail in Oregon. Additionally, the WES train leaves the rail corridor in Beaverton to reach the transit center. Using smaller, more efficient equipment makes sense, at least initially, with the much lower ridership and street running.

Other, relatively low ridership commuter trains are being planned today around the United States. I believe the Stadler GTW DMU train design can be modified to meet FRA standards cheaply. It's just a manner of designing and building stronger passenger sections of their three part trains. But, there's got to be sufficient demand before they will do this.

Stadler Non-Compliant DMU trains presently used in America:
NJT RiverLine

Austin's CapMetroRail


I believe Dallas' Dart, Fort Worth's T, Smart, and even Amtrak may order enough FRA compliant DMU trains in the near future in sufficent numbers to make this chore profitable for Stadler. Let's hope so, because I can forsee many more orders for this DMU over the Colorado Railcar, whose delivery on time and on budget record must be the worse in the history of train manufacturing.

Last edited by electricron; Dec 18, 2008 at 6:27 AM.
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  #2371  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 10:55 AM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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DMUs can also be used in longer distance intercity routes - for instance, the Class 170 is used quite commonly in the UK, can travel up to 100 mph, and 2-3 car trainsets have a decent capacity (not sure how much, tho).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_class_170

I rode one of these on a ~50 mile trip (around 40 minutes with stops) when I went outside of London. I think that trains like these would work excellently in building a longer-distance rail network in Oregon linking cities like McMinnville, Salem, Eugene, Corvallis, Medford, and Ashland to Portland.

I will agree that Trimet's initial procurement is pitiful. And the line should have gone all the way to Salem, for god's sake. This initial line will barely prove anything.
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  #2372  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
However, I have heard arguments that WES misses a lot of juicy locations, such as Washington Square Mall. Thats really unfortunate, as "commuter rail" as a service for only 9-5 commuters seems like a poor idea in this day and age. Service should be designed to fit with modern lifestyles, where more travel is down for school, shopping, and other activities. In Europe they don't even use the term "commuter rail." Its just Intercity rail, and runs frequently all day.
Some weekend and non rush hour service would have been nice.
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  #2373  
Old Posted Dec 21, 2008, 3:27 AM
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Lightbulb

When the TRE between Dallas and Fort Worth initially started service, it used old Budd RDCs and west only to Irving. A few years later, it went west all the way to downtown Fort Worth. By that time, it was also running Bombardier Bi'Level cars behind diesel locomotives in a push-pull ops. As each new section of track's opening, ridership grew.

The WES service can be expanded in two different directions in the future. Towards Salem, and towards McMinnville. I just look at this as an initial section of a much larger overall plan for the future. I will admit it sure would have been better if TriMet had bought three trailer passenger coach cars with their three DMU cars.

By the way, there are other vendors besides Bombardier of both single and bi-level trailer passenger cars that are FRA compliant that can be pulled behind DMU cars. NJT uses FRA compliant Alstom and Bombardier built single level Comet cars and uses bi-level Bombardier Comet VI cars.
Single Level


Bi-Levels



As far as DMUs go, Siemens also builds UK Desiro DMU and an Australian DMU, besides the European Desiro DMU in North San Diego County. The European DMU probably can't be upgraded to FRA compliant status, but I will not say the same is true for the other Siemens DMUs. I think the Siemens UK DMU looks stronger, but I haven't the slightest idea if it is or not.
NSDCTA (European DMU)


UK Desiro DMU


Australian DMU

Last edited by electricron; Dec 21, 2008 at 3:45 AM.
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  #2374  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2008, 4:25 AM
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Missing the point on WES commuter rail
by Fred Hansen, Guest opinion
Monday December 22, 2008, 3:58 PM Oregonian


The state's first commuter rail line has been in the works for 15 years. But recent coverage in The Oregonian misses some key points regarding the Westside Express Service commuter rail project ("Railcar deal cost TriMet millions," Dec. 14).

Fact No. 1: In purchasing the railcars for WES, TriMet had to comply with the federal Buy America law. Only one American firm -- Colorado Railcar Manufacturing -- manufactures the vehicles we needed.

Fact No. 2: The Diesel Multiple Unit trains selected for WES are the only ones that meet federal safety standards allowing commuter trains to operate with active freight trains. Portland & Western Railroad controls the tracks upon which the WES trains will operate, and the company required that freight trains continue to operate on the tracks along with commuter trains. The DMU trains were also selected for this corridor because they provide for ease of operation (an operator cab at both ends), their size fits the Beaverton Transit Center, and TriMet can add future service outside the current "rush-hour only" schedule and safely share the tracks with freight trains.

Fact No. 3: Colorado Railcar Manufacturing has a track record of producing quality vehicles for transit agencies. TriMet management was aware that CRM had experienced financial difficulties. But there were only two options: purchase vehicles from CRM and do everything in our power to limit the risk of our investment or abandon the commuter rail project altogether. After exploring every possible alternative, TriMet decided to proceed with CRM and put risk-management measures in place, including a $3 million Letter of Credit to the contract to cover possible cost overruns.

Fact No. 4: When CRM's financial difficulties escalated, TriMet took additional steps to protect its investment. We enlisted help from the Federal Transit Administration to ensure that CRM was building TriMet's vehicles. We provided engineering and on-site technical oversight of CRM. And finally, we developed an alternative plan to complete the cars locally if CRM went bankrupt.

CRM breached its contract with TriMet and lied about its current financial problems, causing delays and cost escalation. CRM's troubles increased the WES vehicle budget by $7.8 million. The Letter of Credit will reduce that by $3 million. This is the first time that TriMet has faced this kind of situation with a contractor on a major project. We concluded the most cost-effective path was to get the cars as complete as possible at CRM before moving them to Wilsonville and our maintenance facility. Any other course of action would have cost even more money and caused further delays.

Calculated risks are often part of the process in major projects such as MAX light rail and WES commuter rail. In building the Westside MAX line, TriMet made the decision to build a three-mile tunnel instead of putting the track adjacent to U.S. 26, along Portland's West Hills. That decision carried risk, caused delays and cost $90 million. But with the steep incline and potential exposure to the winter elements, the tunnel was the right decision. The calculated risk was worth taking

Will the risk prove worth it for WES commuter rail? We believe so. When WES opens for business, it will offer rush-hour service to and from Beaverton, Tigard, Tualatin and Wilsonville. As the state's first commuter rail line, it will provide another important transportation option in our region.

Fred Hansen is general manager of TriMet.
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  #2375  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2008, 5:23 AM
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God it's good to hear from an informed and educated source once in a while. Thank you for posting that.
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  #2376  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2008, 8:11 AM
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How many new trains will be introduced with the new system?
Will they all go into effect at one time or be phased in?
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  #2377  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2008, 4:25 AM
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^ This is from Trimet's website...
Quote:
The first of 22 new vehicles arrived from the manufacturer in late June. The trains will gradually be introduced into the MAX system starting in the fall.
Of course, Fall has come and gone and I haven't seen any of the S70s running (though I know they have done out-of-service test runs late at night).
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  #2378  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2008, 8:58 PM
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This morning, during my ill-fated attempt to get to work, I noticed a fancy new TriMet rail system map (diagram) on one of the ticket machines at Pioneer Square. It shows WES (black, btw, not purple) and the green line with the mall segment (grayed-out and dashed) and the Streetcar. Looks nice. Not on the website yet, however. I wonder if Portland's rail system map might ever become the sort of well-known icon that DC's metro rail map has become.
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  #2379  
Old Posted Dec 26, 2008, 9:50 PM
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^Yeah, they've had the new diagram on the system maps that you can pick up on the trains for a few months at least. I wonder why they haven't updated the online version yet. I think the new diagram looks great.
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  #2380  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2008, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ForAteOh View Post
^Yeah, they've had the new diagram on the system maps that you can pick up on the trains for a few months at least. I wonder why they haven't updated the online version yet. I think the new diagram looks great.
Could somebody please post a picture of this for those of us who aren't in Portland right now?
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