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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2008, 4:42 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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thats a pretty awesome city


I know you were joking, right? That's like pure all-out coal-burning energy!
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2008, 6:47 AM
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I still hoping for a neoclassical/art deco/revival comeback.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2008, 9:59 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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what is postmodernism?

an excuse.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2008, 10:17 AM
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Would you elaborate on your statement?
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2008, 10:24 AM
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-to make up whatever crap you want and ascribe it to an 'ism. aka, catch-all term.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 3:27 AM
jmecklenborg jmecklenborg is offline
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>s the feistiest two pages on Skyscraperpage?

Apparently you don't click on the Dubai threads.

>You need to read a few books by Wade Davis or David Suzuki. If you wish, you can listen to Davis here. Architecturally you could af


I found that video to be pretty humorous on many levels. The set, his clothing, his mannerisms, the whole thing was set up as self-congratulation for him and everyone in the audience. No matter how much he pretends to understand things outside the confines of western thought, he's still framing everything through western devices and laughing to the bank.


Sorry I don't have any better photos online but here's a photo I took of Frank Gherry's building in Cinicnnati a few weeks ago which was finished at about the same time as the Guggenheim in Balboa. It's aging terribly with weather streaks and simply looks ridiculous:



It's not a public building, it's a research facility. So does this building simply function to pad the university's resume, or does it inspire research break-throughs?

Meanwhile, two miles east, is the rotting old King Records building where rock & roll music was more or less invented in the early 1950's (all the records that inspired the Memphis boys), and where James Brown recorded all of his classic records in the late 50's and 60's:



...but just think how much better James Brown could have been if he'd recorded in a Frank Gherry building!
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 6:21 AM
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How does Frank Gehry keep getting work? Almost all of his buildings are terrible looking........
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 9:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jetsetter View Post
How does Frank Gehry keep getting work?
The architectural faux-intelligentsia, and the followers who eat up every theory they espouse.

Those theories still prominently feature the dogmas of Modernism, including, quite significantly, a need to be 'representative of our time.'

Gehry is consequently their prime architect.

Ever reviewed Rem Koolhaas' work?
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 5:08 PM
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Originally Posted by GVNY View Post
Those theories still prominently feature the dogmas of Modernism, including, quite significantly, a need to be 'representative of our time.'
I think that's a very silly statement. Almost all architectural movements have considered this to be a motivator. The current backlash to progress is something like the Dark Ages.

Anyway, Gehry gets work for the same reason that almost all cities wanted to have a DuBuffet. It's a kind of recognizable icon that establishes that you haven't been left out of the party. Gehry has created a kind of "architecture object" that is largely locale-independent, and you don't need any theory to equate it with his hand. This is highly desirable to those who want a quick solution.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 5:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jmecklenborg View Post
I found that video to be pretty humorous on many levels. The set, his clothing, his mannerisms, the whole thing was set up as self-congratulation for him and everyone in the audience. No matter how much he pretends to understand things outside the confines of western thought, he's still framing everything through western devices and laughing to the bank.
Ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

And for the record, I do not think that highly of Gehry's work. His work is at one end of the extreme, much like the parthenon is at the other end. It was just for the example.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 7:04 PM
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Post modernism?

in architecture, usually uninspired boxes with vague elements of previous styles slapped on incongruously in a vain attempt to disguise the true nature of the structure. With results that are on the whole trite, always crass and indeed patronizing to all previous styles the designers have plundered elements from.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 7:44 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
I am perfectly happy to use the term postmodernism to describe architecture. But I am baffled by its use to describe planning.

Most urbanists distinguish planning from urban design from architecture. Obviously, there are gray areas between planning and urban design, and between urban design and planning. But it's pretty easy to distinguish planning from architecture.

Planning has embraced, over the last 20 years, a movement generally called neotraditional town planning or new urbanism. Tenets of this movement apply to a building's placement on its site and to its relationship with the street, elements of urban design. Though some developers of new urbanist communities have ideas about what will be saleable, the new urbanist movement is entirely agnostic with regard to architecture. I have never heard the term postmodernism applied to planning, and I do not understand how it honestly could be.
Yeah, but they're really only relevant to suburban areas and smaller towns and cities. Established cities generally have enough of their own urbanism already inherent in the physicality of their built environment, as well as open spaces, circulation (freeways/roads/pedestrian ways/transit), and the culture of the city, its neighborhoods, and so on.

Neotraditionalism and stuff are generally promoted by groups like the Congress of the New Urbanism (CNU) who are trying to save suburbia from itself. They're planners, not architects; they did a lot of work in post-Katrina New Orleans and the region. Their roots really came out of Seaside, Florida, courtesy of Andrés Duany and Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk.

The big thing about this kind of community master-planning is that they established an architectural codebook - based on traditional "features" - that you could not deviate from, and completely described how a building would be built, what materials you could use, what colors, and mandated things like a front porch, large windows, and small picket fences.


"New Urbanism" is kind of just a bullshit marketing term. People have been living in cities for over 11,000 years; its just that people in the USA don't realize this. Thus... the need for a marketable buzzword. And planners L-O-V-E buzzwords!


Their goals are, however, laudable: pedestrian-oriented cities, parks and open spaces, low-medium density, safe for families, and a mix of uses. Seaside, in fact, has a "town center" with several very modern buildings in it. Many of these had neoclassical wooden facades plastered on them when they filmed the Truman Show.

I encourage all of you interested in this subject to read about Seaside, Florida.
There is also a wiki and some diverse set of papers out there on it.

Excellent Harvard debate between Rem Koolhas and Dunay (founder of CNU)
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 8:59 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I just get frustrated when everyone seems to think building in a historical style is what postmodernism is. Certainly historicism is a postmodern movement but so is organic architecture, abstract architecture, iconic architecture and so on.

Applying this to Gang's Aqua. The building is a direct metaphor/analogy of water. Metaphorical/analogous architecture is, by definition, postmodern. Therefore, Gang is a postmodernist.
I would make very sure not to confuse Postmodernist theory and philosophy with Postmodern Architecture, which are two separate (yet related) entities of thought and practice. PoMo Architecture is much different animal, particularly as it manifests itself in an actual concrete, physical building style... not to mention the resulting lack of quality or thoughtfulness in the mainstreaming of buildings that sport the 'style.'


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Originally Posted by Eventually...Chicago View Post
And, no, you can't call every building with a base, middle (shaft) and crown "sullivan-esque", because the "Chicago School" refers to a direct period in history. Just as baroque and rococo architectures are similar, but two distinct periods. Postmodernism is a theoretical movement that doesn't refer to a specific period of time other than "after modernism".

New urbanism (especially), neotraditionalism, whatever-ism is all postmodernism. Gehry, Thomas Mayne, Libeskind (hugely), me, Graves, Eisenman(immensely), you, Koolhaas, Jahn, Pelli, Hadid, etc. all postmodernists, whether they like it or not.

I know it seems like a strict academic discussion but you can't throw around a loaded term like "postmodernism" believe it to be simply historicism. We are in the midst of the postmodern movement, which everyone is aware of and will continue to be. Postmodernism is, in it's most basic form, embracing complexity and contradiction. And a theory that accepts all nuance, particularities, and incongruities is inescapable, even by those who reject it.
Defining everything after Modernistm as "Post Modernism" is just not correct. As for using a metaphor as a basis for definition, contemporary designers are certainly not the first - nor will they be the last - to use that during conceptual design.

Again, I think you are being way too general. People like Gehry don't even use a literary or critical system when approaching design - he just picks up some pencil shavings off the floor, hands them to an intern, and has them draft up a plan. He is the complete anti-academic.

There are other ways of designing than your very narrow perspective. Have you read Modern Architecture since 1900 or Architecture Theory since 1968? There are a few excellent publications that go a bit deeper than lumping everything into a cingular group like this.

Last edited by zilfondel; Mar 12, 2008 at 4:54 AM. Reason: cited resources to read!
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2008, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
He is the complete anti-academic.
I like your posts.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 12:09 AM
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I love the disney concert hall. I think it is his best work though, some of his other stuff I wouldnt want to set foot in.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 1:37 AM
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I think that's a very silly statement. Almost all architectural movements have considered this to be a motivator. The current backlash to progress is something like the Dark Ages.
Your statement is not completely accurate.

Previous architectural styles, particularly those of the medieval period as you mention, were not bracketed with notions of wholesale rejections of tradition and earlier styles of design. This is unique solely to Modernism and contemporary times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by honte View Post
Anyway, Gehry gets work for the same reason that almost all cities wanted to have a DuBuffet. It's a kind of recognizable icon that establishes that you haven't been left out of the party. Gehry has created a kind of "architecture object" that is largely locale-independent, and you don't need any theory to equate it with his hand. This is highly desirable to those who want a quick solution.
You essentially support my original statement, Honte.

Gehry would fail to snag these esteemed commissions if he was not awarded the architectural elites' acknowledgments, prestige and praise. I fail to see how you can disagree with my point.

You do not have crackpots designing crazy architecture. You have awarded Gehry's and Koolhaas'.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 2:19 AM
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^ I wasn't really disagreeing with your Gehry statement. I do disagree that his patrons are interested in theory though. It was quite clear here in Chicago, to use a local example, that they were only interested in the brand name.

At one point, he did gather praise from the elite. But he no longer needs that, because the Bilbao cash cow speaks a more universal language.

Concerning "wholesale rejections...", this wasn't what I was commenting on. I simply dispute that the idea of being "representative of our time" is particularly Modernist.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 4:02 AM
JDRCRASH JDRCRASH is offline
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Originally Posted by jetsetter View Post
How does Frank Gehry keep getting work? Almost all of his buildings are terrible looking........
Huh?



I'd would be if you said that THIS work of art was terrible.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 4:14 AM
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Notice how I put "almost" in there. If it didn't have metal cladding then it really wouldn't be as good.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 10, 2008, 4:27 AM
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Notice how I put "almost" in there. If it didn't have metal cladding then it really wouldn't be as good.
Hence, the "this" part of my sentence.
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