The 401

[Mister F]

I can't see any way to justify 6 laning the entire length of the 401. What comparable areas have a 6 lane highway of that length? I can think of I-90 through the US Northeast Corridor and the M40/M6 through the length of England, but both of those regions have 3-4 times the population density of the Windsor-Quebec Corridor. I think we're too reliant on the 401; it's the only major route through the area. We would do well to have stronger alternate routes and modes for travel to Ottawa and Quebec.

Ontario/Canada would do better to invest in a robust passenger rail system through the corridor (Via Rail's dedicated tracks proposal would be a good start) combined with upgrades to Highway 7. It wouldn't have to be built to 400-series standards; something like an at grade expressway or super-2 would improve travel times enough to divert quite a bit of traffic off the 401.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I can't see any way to justify 6 laning the entire length of the 401. What comparable areas have a 6 lane highway of that length? I can think of I-90 through the US Northeast Corridor and the M40/M6 through the length of England, but both of those regions have 3-4 times the population density of the Windsor-Quebec Corridor. I think we're too reliant on the 401; it's the only major route through the area. We would do well to have stronger alternate routes and modes for travel to Ottawa and Quebec.

Ontario/Canada would do better to invest in a robust passenger rail system through the corridor (Via Rail's dedicated tracks proposal would be a good start) combined with upgrades to Highway 7. It wouldn't have to be built to 400-series standards; something like an at grade expressway or super-2 would improve travel times enough to divert quite a bit of traffic off the 401.

Alternatively, widen TCH in NW Ontario and from New Liskeard to Arnprior via North Bay. That would take most (if not all) cross-country truck traffic off the 401.

Only thing is, the provincial obviously prefers a cheap fix of the 401 as opposed to an expensive widening of another highway even though it's of national importance.

I feel that people will feel less overwhelmed when there are fewer trucks on the highway. Is that true?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Alternatively, widen TCH in NW Ontario and from New Liskeard to Arnprior via North Bay. That would take most (if not all) cross-country truck traffic off the 401.

Only thing is, the provincial obviously prefers a cheap fix of the 401 as opposed to an expensive widening of another highway even though it's of national importance.

I feel that people will feel less overwhelmed when there are fewer trucks on the highway. Is that true?

Most of the cross country truck traffic uses highway 11/17 anyway. I don't think any trucking company would go hundreds of kilometers out of their way (via 401/400) just to stay on a 4-lane road.

Most of the truck traffic on the 401 is headed between Montreal, Toronto, southwestern Ontario and the US.

The cost of widening between North Bay, New Liskeard and Arnprior to a 400-series standard would be huge. It would likely be much more expensive than putting in 6 lanes on sections of the 401 that need it. The grades are horrible and the terrain is terrible (aside from the Ottawa Valley portion). The 401 lies mostly on flat land with adequate right of way for expansion.

The 401 is nationally important. It carries a huge percentage of the economic potential of this country.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by wave46

Most of the cross country truck traffic uses highway 11/17 anyway. I don't think any trucking company would go hundreds of kilometers out of their way (via 401/400) just to stay on a 4-lane road.

Most of the truck traffic on the 401 is headed between Montreal, Toronto, southwestern Ontario and the US.

The cost of widening between North Bay, New Liskeard and Arnprior to a 400-series standard would be huge. It would likely be much more expensive than putting in 6 lanes on sections of the 401 that need it. The grades are horrible and the terrain is terrible (aside from the Ottawa Valley portion). The 401 lies mostly on flat land with adequate right of way for expansion.

The 401 is nationally important. It carries a huge percentage of the economic potential of this country.

Interesting. I've always thought that a considerable number of cross-country trucks would go through the states instead (in addition to those that use TCH).

Also, when you said that widening those sections of TCH would cost a lot, that was exactly my point. I have always thought it prudent to widen the hard parts first, then deal with the easy parts later.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Interesting. I've always thought that a considerable number of cross-country trucks would go through the states instead (in addition to those that use TCH).

Also, when you said that widening those sections of TCH would cost a lot, that was exactly my point. I have always thought it prudent to widen the hard parts first, then deal with the easy parts later.

Yes, a number of cross country trucks go through the US, that's true. I can't imagine your plan would make a meaningful difference to truck volume on the 401 - I'd imagine trucks headed to the the US vastly outnumber trucks headed east-west within Canada.

I have always though it prudent to get the best value for the dollar. Widening a relatively low-volume highway for the few trucks it might take off the 401 would not be a very good value. Especially when it would be very expensive and there are many other better uses for taxpayer dollars.

It is an expensive plan for minimal benefits.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by wave46

The 401 is nationally important. It carries a huge percentage of the economic potential of this country.

We rely too much on a single highway - a single point of failure along our most important corridor. That's why I was saying that we should build Via Rail's HFR plan and upgrade Highway 7. Via estimates 9.9 million annual riders, which means that ridership would roughly triple with a relatively modest investment. As for Highway 7, it shortens the drive from Toronto to Ottawa by almost 50 km compared to taking the 401 and 416 and can be just as fast. In fact, Google Maps is telling me to take that route instead of the 401 if I were to leave right now. Upgrading it to something like a super-2 (again, a relatively modest investment) would make it the clearly faster route and quite a few people would switch.

Widening the entire 401 to six lanes just makes no sense when better options are available. We need to spread out the traffic and rely less on a single piece of infrastructure.

[Dengler Avenue]

That’s why I proposed what I proposed earlier on in this thread. For one it makes traffic flow better on the 9. (That Highway can get very jammed, and there’s been 2 fatalities so far.) Also, the whole point of having a freeway this north (Georgina) is to make sure that trucks don’t mess with local traffic. Don’t you all remember how many trucks there are on the 401? Sometimes, it’s like watching Transformers in real life.

Ps: Then I realized that Ottawa won’t like the sight of a bunch of transformers on the 417...

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Mister F

I can't see any way to justify 6 laning the entire length of the 401. What comparable areas have a 6 lane highway of that length? I can think of I-90 through the US Northeast Corridor and the M40/M6 through the length of England, but both of those regions have 3-4 times the population density of the Windsor-Quebec Corridor. I think we're too reliant on the 401; it's the only major route through the area. We would do well to have stronger alternate routes and modes for travel to Ottawa and Quebec.

Ontario/Canada would do better to invest in a robust passenger rail system through the corridor (Via Rail's dedicated tracks proposal would be a good start) combined with upgrades to Highway 7. It wouldn't have to be built to 400-series standards; something like an at grade expressway or super-2 would improve travel times enough to divert quite a bit of traffic off the 401.

Highway 7 needs to have a few bypasses built and a bit more in the way of services along the way; my experience is that while it's shorter than taking the 401/416 from Toronto to Ottawa, it can take longer.

The route could be shortened by building a new alignment between Perth and Carleton Place, to the east of Mississippi Lake. I believe there actually was a plan on the books to do just that about 50 years ago but it was never done. Also bypasses of communities like Norwood, Havelock, and Marmora would help.

There's also a lack of services between Peterborough and Perth. There's sufficient gas stations, and there's Tim Hortons and a couple Subways along the way, but not a whole lot else. Taking the 401 route lets you stop in Belleville or Kingston, which have a lot more. But demand along Highway 7 isn't high enough for additional restaurants; it would take increased traffic to make a valid business case for some additional restaurants or hotels.

[sonysnob]

Eastern Ontario Municipalities call on the province to widen the 401 through Eastern Ontario:

http://www.thewhig.com/2018/02/02/br...l-to-widen-401

Brockville has joined the regional call for the widening of Highway 401 to six lanes in Eastern Ontario.

MPPs said there have been a dozen fatal crashes on the stretch of the 401 between Cornwall and Trenton since May. Those crashes have claimed the lives of 16 people and injured 18 others.

[haljackey]

Mississauga to Milton to get widened

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2018/...utm_campaign=m

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Mississauga to Milton to get widened

https://news.ontario.ca/mto/en/2018/...utm_campaign=m

The side comments mentioned HOV lanes, but the main body of text did not, so are they included in the widening or nah? If no, then I don't buy this "widening highway to relief congestion" narrative. In fact, we might even need 2 HOV lanes per direction so people can pass one another there too.

Also, hasn't MTO already been working on it? Whenever I drive by Mississauga, especially east of Credit River, I can already see the collector lanes taking shape.

[sonysnob]

The project will include HOV lanes, one additional HOV lane per direction. I would assume that the HOV lane will have provisions to be converted to a HOT lane as well, that seems to be the trend with these projects.

This project that was re-announced starts at the Credit River and progresses westerly. The work that is ongoing currently is a separate project.


http://www.asphaltplanet.ca/ON/hwy_4...ar18_24x16.jpg

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Eastern Ontario Municipalities call on the province to widen the 401 through Eastern Ontario:

http://www.thewhig.com/2018/02/02/br...l-to-widen-401

yeah, this absolutely needs to happen. there is a lot of volume on the 401 going towards/from Montreal and Ottawa. So many trucks....I recall when the road from Kitchener to London was only 2 lanes each way and it was a scary ride (always getting boxed in by transport trucks).

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

yeah, this absolutely needs to happen. there is a lot of volume on the 401 going towards/from Montreal and Ottawa. So many trucks....I recall when the road from Kitchener to London was only 2 lanes each way and it was a scary ride (always getting boxed in by transport trucks).

What... you don't like this?


https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfur...his_for_miles/

[Dengler Avenue]

Oh boy that’s absolutely annoying.

On a related note, I think trucks should be governed at 110 kph (70 mph) instead of the current 105 kph (65 mph).

[Dengler Avenue]

I was checking twitter just to see OPP GTA traffic's tweet about an accident on 6 near Concession Road 7.

It seems that a lot of accidents on the 6 happen at (or near) that intersection. What's up with that? Should all at-grade intersections on the 6 between Guelph and Hamilton be removed (with some replaced with interchanges or RIRO's) as Morriston-Puslinch bypass is constructed?

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I was checking twitter just to see OPP GTA traffic's tweet about an accident on 6 near Concession Road 7.

It seems that a lot of accidents on the 6 happen at (or near) that intersection. What's up with that? Should all at-grade intersections on the 6 between Guelph and Hamilton be removed (with some replaced with interchanges or RIRO's) as Morriston-Puslinch bypass is constructed?

I can't say whether the frequency of collisions is any different at that intersection than others, and there's not much at the Conc. 7E intersection with Hwy 6. The road is a key connection between the 401 and 403, and the alarms about safety have been ringing for a long time. (and for what it's worth, there are similar issues on 6 south of Hamilton as well).

It's a 4-lane 80 km/h highway that carries a lot of car and truck traffic, with a nearly continuous painted median for left turns for about 18km north of Hwy 5. People routinely drive it at 100 km/h or more, sometimes 120 despite the police presence. The intersections and driveways introduce collision risk. Conversion to a RI/RO south of the new bypass may be the only long-term solution (and not an adequate one, but better than the status quo) with consideration for interchanges at a couple of key intersections.

Here's the streetview of Hwy 6 at Conc. 7E. It's pretty typical of much of the 4-lane stretch of Hwy 6 north of the 403. There are gas stations in a few places and more stuff at some other intersections (like at Carlisle Rd.... same pickup and trailer in that view as the other one)

[Innsertnamehere]

THe only interchange MTO is considering is for highway 5. No plans for a RIRO either from my understanding.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

THe only interchange MTO is considering is for highway 5. No plans for a RIRO either from my understanding.

I've heard nothing either. It may be best to see how traffic flow (and collision frequency) changes after the bypass is built before considering further plans.

That interchange at 5 makes a lot of sense though: it's a major choke-point, with a lot of vehicle turning activity. And 6 south of it is already controlled access.

[Dengler Avenue]

Now this is starting to sound a lot like Highway 11 between Crown Hill and Gravenhurst.
I feel that 6 should be twinned and grade-separated between 403 and Caledonia one of these days, and possibly even between Guelph and Fergus too. Commuter traffic during rush hour is actually considerable nowadays.