Is it time for Ontario to be split up into new Provinces?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TSX - Toronto Stock Exchange did not start up because of the massive farms in the south. The TSX didn't start up because of manufacturing.

The Toronto Stock Exchange started up because of the mining in Northern Ontario.

You cannot tell me that if the stock exchange had started somewhere in Northern Ontario that we would be having this conversation.

Northern Ontario's wealth has been hidden in amoungst the rest of the country''s wealth.

[Dengler Avenue]

Wait.
Does that mean that, once we're out of mine, Ontario's done for? :o

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Wait.
Does that mean that, once we're out of mine, Ontario's done for? :o

No, but the point was that the mines are what built this province into the powerhouse it is. Thinking that Northern Ontario couldn't make it is just naive.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The TSX - Toronto Stock Exchange did not start up because of the massive farms in the south. The TSX didn't start up because of manufacturing.

The Toronto Stock Exchange started up because of the mining in Northern Ontario.

You cannot tell me that if the stock exchange had started somewhere in Northern Ontario that we would be having this conversation.

Northern Ontario's wealth has been hidden in amoungst the rest of the country''s wealth.

I'm not finding anything about northern Ontario mining being responsible for starting up the Toronto Stock Exchange. All the history I can find says the first stocks were mostly banking and real estate!

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by north 42

I'm not finding anything about northern Ontario mining being responsible for starting up the Toronto Stock Exchange. All the history I can find says the first stocks were mostly banking and real estate!

A book I read about he ONR "The Northern Connection" Had it in there about when the railway got to Cobalt.

[Dengler Avenue]

Here's the thing with Northern Ontario though: Back in the days (circa 1920), some people from the south went as north as Cochrane and settled there for fear of a Quebecois takeover (although that fear might have been unfounded). (I read it when I was going through the history of Highway 11, then called the Furguson Highway.) Do correct me if I'm wrong, because what I'm about to write is solely based on this premise.

Suppose that didn't happen.
Then, what we know as Northern Ontario today would have been Québec du Nord-Ouest instead.
Then Quebec referendum happened (although one can contend whether it would have happened at all, had it annexed the present-day Northern Ontario).

Do keep in mind that the 1995 referendum forced major companies to move out of Quebec, particularly, from Montreal to Toronto. With the big companies gone because of the referendum, I wonder whether "Québec du Nord-Ouest" would have had it worse than it had in the contemporary days...

[vid]

Originally Posted by north 42

I'm not finding anything about northern Ontario mining being responsible for starting up the Toronto Stock Exchange. All the history I can find says the first stocks were mostly banking and real estate!

It was started as a small banking and real estate exchange in Toronto but it wasn't until the Northern Ontario mining boom in the late 1800s/early 1900s that it really took off. Today, it has the most mining companies on it out of all the world's stock exchanges and Canada is actually an incredibly influential player in the global mining industry. Especially Latin American, where our government and mining industry lobbyists write laws for those countries to pass which directly benefit our mining companies, thus ensuring more wealth flows into our country. We use Latin America the same way we used Northern Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Do keep in mind that the 1995 referendum forced major companies move out of Quebec, particularly, from Montreal to Toronto....

The referendum in 1995 didn't force anyone or anything to move anywhere.

Lots of companies did choose to move out of Quebec at one point, but that was more in the 1976 to 1981 period. Not 1995.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The referendum in 1995 didn't force anyone or anything to move anywhere.

Lots of companies did choose to move out of Quebec at one point, but that was more in the 1976 to 1981 period. Not 1995.

Thanks for the clarification, although I think that my point still stands in that case (unless the premise is outright wrong). :p

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Here's the thing with Northern Ontario though: Back in the days (circa 1920), some people from the south went as north as Cochrane and settled there for fear of a Quebecois takeover (although that fear might have been unfounded). (I read it when I was going through the history of Highway 11, then called the Furguson Highway.) Do correct me if I'm wrong, because what I'm about to write is solely based on this premise.

Suppose that didn't happen.
Then, what we know as Northern Ontario today would have been Québec du Nord-Ouest instead.
Then Quebec referendum happened (although one can contend whether it would have happened at all, had it annexed the present-day Northern Ontario).

Do keep in mind that the 1995 referendum forced major companies to move out of Quebec, particularly, from Montreal to Toronto. With the big companies gone because of the referendum, I wonder whether "Québec du Nord-Ouest" would have had it worse than it had in the contemporary days...

The border between Ontario and Quebec North of Lake Temiskaming was surveyed and established around 1874 where it was started at the easternmost point of where the Blanche River flows into Lake Temiskaming. The border goes straight North from that point right up to James Bay. At first it only went up to a certain latitude but by 1889 went all the way up to James Bay.

Almost all non-Indigenous communities in the Northeast (Cochrane and Temiskaming Districts) were founded after the border was established. People who moved here from Quebec moved knowing that they were moving to Ontario and they saw themselves as French Canadians and not as Quebecers. They moved mainly due to economic opportunities in forestry, mining and agriculture.

All of the non-Indigenous communities in the border Abitibi-Témiscamingue region of Quebec were founded at the same time or a bit later than those in the Cochrane and Temiskaming districts of Ontario.

Places such as Rouyn, Noranda and Val-d'Or had more attachment to Ontario than to the rest of their own province in the early days. Highways only connected to Ontario at first. It wasn't until 1939 that you could drive within Quebec from Rouyn to Montreal!

There was a big movement by the Quebec government and even the Catholic church to get people to settle in the region for farming and forestry. Later mining attracted more. But many of the mining communities began as being more English speaking than French. Noranda is a good example as it wasn't dominated by francophones until about the 1950s. Eventually many francophones moved to the region from elsewhere in the province and now it is almost entirely francophone. Most of the children of anglophones and immigrants ended up moving to Ontario. So back in the day there was a threat from Ontario anglophones having too much influence there.

Even today the Ontario government (Ontario Northland Railway) owns a rail line going into Rouyn-Noranda, Quebec and has trains that serve the mines and smelter. The Quebec government wouldn't allow that to happen if it were to be proposed today.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The border between Ontario and Quebec North of Lake Temiskaming was surveyed and established around 1874 where it was started at the easternmost point of where the Blanche River flows into Lake Temiskaming. The border goes straight North from that point right up to James Bay. At first it only went up to a certain latitude but by 1889 went all the way up to James Bay.

Almost all non-Indigenous communities in the Northeast (Cochrane and Temiskaming Districts) were founded after the border was established. People who moved here from Quebec moved knowing that they were moving to Ontario and they saw themselves as French Canadians and not as Quebecers. They moved mainly due to economic opportunities in forestry, mining and agriculture.

All of the non-Indigenous communities in the border Abitibi-Témiscamingue region of Quebec were founded at the same time or a bit later than those in the Cochrane and Temiskaming districts of Ontario.

Places such as Rouyn, Noranda and Val-d'Or had more attachment to Ontario than to the rest of their own province in the early days. Highways only connected to Ontario at first. It wasn't until 1939 that you could drive within Quebec from Rouyn to Montreal!

There was a big movement by the Quebec government and even the Catholic church to get people to settle in the region for farming and forestry. Later mining attracted more. But many of the mining communities began as being more English speaking than French. Noranda is a good example as it wasn't dominated by francophones until about the 1950s. Eventually many francophones moved to the region from elsewhere in the province and now it is almost entirely francophone. Most of the children of anglophones and immigrants ended up moving to Ontario. So back in the day there was a threat from Ontario anglophones having too much influence there.

Even today the Ontario government (Ontario Northland Railway) owns a rail line going into Rouyn-Noranda, Quebec and has trains that serve the mines and smelter. The Quebec government wouldn't allow that to happen if it were to be proposed today.

Thanks for the education.
My point earlier on doesn't stand then.

[Acajack]

It may not have been a geopolitical concern but there were some demographic concerns about the spillover of the still-prolific francophone population of Quebec into Ontario in the first half of the 20th century.

For example, I still remember the headline they showed us in one of our history classes when the Dionne quintuplets were born near North Bay in 1934.

I think it was from the Toronto Telegram and it read something like: "Quints' birth raises spectre of French domination in North".

For most of the 20th century (perhaps until the last 20 years or so) the francophone *share* of the population grew pretty steadily in NE and E Ontario.

But then the Quebec birth rate started to plummet, Québécois emigration outside their province declined significantly and francophones in Ontario began to assimilate more and more...

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It may not have been a geopolitical concern but there were some demographic concerns about the spillover of the still-prolific francophone population of Quebec into Ontario in the first half of the 20th century.

For example, I still remember the headline they showed us in one of our history classes when the Dionne quintuplets were born near North Bay in 1934.

I think it was from the Toronto Telegram and it read something like: "Quints' birth raises spectre of French domination in North".

For most of the 20th century (perhaps until the last 20 years or so) the francophone *share* of the population grew pretty steadily in NE and E Ontario.

But then the Quebec birth rate started to plummet, Québécois emigration outside their province declined significantly and francophones in Ontario began to assimilate more and more...

La Revanche du berceau?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Revanche_des_berceaux

Was there ever a great fear by Anglo-Canadians that French Canadians would specifically overwhelm Ontario through higher birthrates or domestic migration, or was it more about Francophones "taking back" French Canada (ie. The Quebecois birthrate vs. Anglo-Quebecers) from within itself.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

La Revanche du berceau?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Revanche_des_berceaux

Was there ever a great fear by Anglo-Canadians that French Canadians would specifically overwhelm Ontario through higher birthrates or domestic migration, or was it more about Francophones "taking back" French Canada (ie. The Quebecois birthrate vs. Anglo-Quebecers) from within itself.

You might find this interesting:

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=189853

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Acajack

You might find this interesting:

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=189853

From that forum post:

"Wider opportunities can perhaps be given to them in other parts of Canada and the U.S.; and at the same time, certain opportunities can probably be given to non French Canadian stock to mingle more greatly with them in their own centers."

That kind of gives some historical context into the whole worry among Francophones Canadians in Quebec that the arrival of allophones and the mingling between allophones and Francophones may serve to dilute Francophone influence and reinforce Anglophone dominance, or the claim that "multiculturalism within Quebec is a tool to reduce Quebec's influence". Now that the tables have turned so that the allophones mingling with the Francophones reinforces Francophone dominance locally, not Anglophone, things aren't the same.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

From that forum post:

"Wider opportunities can perhaps be given to them in other parts of Canada and the U.S.; and at the same time, certain opportunities can probably be given to non French Canadian stock to mingle more greatly with them in their own centers."

That kind of gives some historical context into the whole worry among Francophones Canadians in Quebec that the arrival of allophones and the mingling between allophones and Francophones may serve to dilute Francophone influence and reinforce Anglophone dominance, or "multiculturalism within Quebec is a tool to reduce Quebec's influence".

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner!

[Capsicum]

Also, if the idea was that getting French Canadians to move out to other areas of Canada and to the US would dilute their influence (since the outmigrating French Canadians would assimilate away to Anglo culture), why was there a concern that Francophone migration to northern and eastern Ontario would actually grow, not reduce their influence? In say North Bay, or similar areas where the Dionne quintuplets were born, then was there just enough critical mass of Francophones in those parts of NE and E Ontario that they'd not have to assimilate, but if they were to be encouraged to migrate a bit farther afield (eg. to southern Ontario, to western Canada, or somewhere stateside), they'd be the ones to assimilate lose their French culture? I wonder how "far" they were thinking of moving French Canadians in order to break their link to French Canada itself (if eastern Ontario wasn't far enough).

I'd also imagine that aside from the Irish in Quebec who assimilated to French itself, Francophone influence grew from birth/natural increase and thus the language/culture was primarily passed on through families. The post you linked to talks about "mixing stock" though, so I wonder if for the plan they meant that they wanted French Canadians to literally mix or intermarry with non-French Canadians to dilute their ancestry itself or merely meant that mixing meant living alongside or assimilating to non-French Canadians so that they would give up their culture, regardless of whether their "stock" in the sense of blood or genealogical roots was French.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Which is why we need a government that supports the North. A government that will build a road or a rail line and operate it. A government that will find appropriate ways to bring clean cheap electricity to the grid.

Sadly, the last few governments have screwed the North over so much, we want out of the province. We still want to be part of Canada, just not part of Ontario.

What are your thoughts on having three provinces -- Northwestern Ontario (proposed name: Superior), Northeastern Ontario (including Parry Sound, Muskoka and Algonquin Park; proposed name: Huron) and Southern Ontario (name: Ontario)?

Northeastern Ontario could be a bilingual province like NB. Northwestern Ontario can be in the Central Time Zone. Thunder Bay would be the capital of NWON and Sudbury for NEON.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

What are your thoughts on having three provinces -- Northwestern Ontario (proposed name: Superior), Northeastern Ontario (including Parry Sound, Muskoka and Algonquin Park; proposed name: Huron) and Southern Ontario (name: Ontario)?

Northeastern Ontario could be a bilingual province like NB. Northwestern Ontario can be in the Central Time Zone. Thunder Bay would be the capital of NWON and Sudbury for NEON.

The division sounds almost perfect to me, although you should probably include the Upper-Ottawa-Valley part of Renfrew county in NEON as well just because the county gets screwed real bad too.

Meanwhile, I would rather call NWON Lakehead (Tête des Lacs) instead of Superior (Supérieur).

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

What are your thoughts on having three provinces -- Northwestern Ontario (proposed name: Superior), Northeastern Ontario (including Parry Sound, Muskoka and Algonquin Park; proposed name: Huron) and Southern Ontario (name: Ontario)?

Northeastern Ontario could be a bilingual province like NB. Northwestern Ontario can be in the Central Time Zone. Thunder Bay would be the capital of NWON and Sudbury for NEON.

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

The division sounds almost perfect to me, although you should probably include the Upper-Ottawa-Valley part of Renfrew county in NEON as well just because the county gets screwed real bad too.

Meanwhile, I would rather call NWON Lakehead (Tête des Lacs) instead of Superior (Supérieur).

If Ontario was divided into three provinces, the part that becomes Southern Ontario would still be the populous province, with still over 12 million people, but you would have an additional province of about a quarter million people that would be the second smallest province in population after PEI, and another additional province of over half a million that's a bit more than the population of Newfoundland.