HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #41  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 7:21 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by plinko View Post
Still, all the wrong locations for big box. I have no problem with larger stores going into DT Phoenix, but they have to be located correctly. To me the best location is just south of the BOB. (I'm talking Target, Home Depot or Costco).

Van Buren is a commercial oriented street, but not that type.
Why not? Theres a lot of empty or underutilized lots along Van Buren that would be fine for department stores. Putting them South of Chase field means their further from most downtown residents for one.

Along Van Buren makes sense for a row of department/box stores as they could be on the bottom floor of office buildings like you traditionally saw downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #42  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 7:30 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Lower-48
Posts: 4,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
unfortunately, he isn't. I deal with people every day that won't go anywhere that has a Phoenix address. I've almost started physical fights with people by telling them Kierland is in Phoenix. They just don't want to hear it and are scared of anything with Phoenix in it. I had a lady today tell me she doesn't go into Chicago because she doesn't want to get killed and stays near her home in Highland Park.

People are just.... stupid.
Thats because PHX is the new Detroit. This isn't just a local notion, its pretty much nation wide thought. AKA #1 in kidnapping/illegal immigration/drug cartels...

It is the headline in the the housing meltdown, its on CNN pretty often. Its no wonder that people come to the "Valley" and try their best to avoid Phoenix.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 7:32 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: The Lower-48
Posts: 4,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Obviously we're never going to see a Bloomingdales at the Az Center
And the excuse for the city of PHX now is....??
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #44  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2009, 8:10 PM
plinko's Avatar
plinko plinko is offline
them bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Barbara adjacent
Posts: 7,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Why not? Theres a lot of empty or underutilized lots along Van Buren that would be fine for department stores. Putting them South of Chase field means their further from most downtown residents for one.

Along Van Buren makes sense for a row of department/box stores as they could be on the bottom floor of office buildings like you traditionally saw downtown.
I know what you're getting at (a shopping street), but financial backers would never back singular developments similar to what you are talking about. There isn't enough critical mass. I think Phoenix is more likely to see something like this:

Video Link


or Atlantic Station in Atlanta.

Overall, a good development for the center city, but still catering to how MOST users will get there, by driving. And that's why I say that Van Buren is inappropriate, it still has a chance of being somewhat pedestrian oriented from 7th to 7th.

Like it or not, Phoenix isn't a traditional city, and I seriously doubt that there will ever be a 'shopping street' in DT Phoenix (something akin to Michigan Ave). It's a nice idea, but I don't see it happening, not there.
__________________
Even if you are 1 in a million, there are still 8,000 people just like you...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2009, 9:09 AM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,610
^I guess Im just not following your reasoning. Van Buren between 7th Ave and Central is the perfect place for something like a Michigan Avenue. Its strategically proximate to the current core of downtown buildings, downtown ASU (which is good as many of the students could get jobs at the retail outlets), the Captiol Mall area and the neighborhoods to the North (Roosevelt, Evans- Churchill, etc). It also has fairly wide sidewalks already which is good for large scale shopping.

It also links into the Lower Grand area which hopefully in the next 20 or so years will become a nice midrise area with a trolley running down it. And perhaps that trolley would also go down Van Buren to the Central Station, increasing Van Burens potential as a shopping street.

Its currently zoned (and will stay that way) for the highest buildings in the city which could mean large areas of floor space for big department stores. Van Buren is easy to access for suburban drivers coming off the 10 down 7th Ave. Theres also freeway access from 5th and 3rd avenues.

Its a big wide street thats easy for the automobile too. Unlike the warehouse area you proposed which has narrow streets and far less Phoenicians are familiar with. Garages underground or 'behind' retail fronting Van Buren would work out just fine. Its an area set up for people to either take transit to it, or drive, park once and then shop.

Currently along VB there's empty warehouses (between 5th and 6th), lots of surface lots, automotive shops, suburban style fast food joints and auto oriented motels that no longer really serve much of a purpose. A lot of that will likely be whipped out if Downtown is able to attract more large firms and thus towers and its really the ideal downtown area for a shopping street.

Theres also nothing about Phoenix that makes a shopping street impossible. Up until the 60s everyone went downtown to walk and shop, its not like our climate is so unbearable that its impossible. Its really the indoor mall thats the thing of the past, not shopping streets. Look at even the new suburban shopping developments, Desert Ridge, Tempe Marketplace, Westgate, Zanjero, CityNorth all of these areas encourage people to drive, park once and shop outdoors while walking. They may have served as trojan horses in a way to reintroducing people to shopping that way.

Finally, like I said, the Urban Form plan calls for the area on West VB to have large scale retail, so thats where its going to go if it comes, like it or not.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #46  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2009, 11:38 AM
plinko's Avatar
plinko plinko is offline
them bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Santa Barbara adjacent
Posts: 7,388
^Oh I actually agree with you that if DT Phoenix were ever to have a shopping street, Van Buren between the 7's should be it. (Boutique retail and maybe a small department store)

My point is that I don't think you'll see it on any sort of workable scale in the next 20 years.

More likely the case is that DT Phoenix (hopefully by getting and keeping a successful grocer at Cityscape) will show enough critical mass to get a larger type retail development downtown with Target, Home Depot and those type stores. That type of development is not inappropriate for the scale that the city will be trying to create for Van Buren. Too many cars. That's why I suggested along 7th immediately south of the Chase Field. All that's there now is parking lots (I'm not advocating tearing down anything in the warehouse district). The only other viable location DT I really see in near 7th Avenue and Jefferson, but that probably screws up somebody's plans for a DT-Capitol neighborhood link of some kind (talked about for 40 years, but nothing has been done).

That's just my opinion. I just don't see DT Phoenix as a major shopping destination ever for anyone other than the people living down there. There are finally enough (and maybe more importantly enough that are affluent) to need basic levels of retail (RE: grocery, hardware, household goods), but the notion that any department store or high-end clothier/boutique is going to open up on Van Buren anytime soon? Uhhh...probably not.
__________________
Even if you are 1 in a million, there are still 8,000 people just like you...

Last edited by plinko; Nov 13, 2009 at 5:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2009, 5:28 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,610
^Well if the city gets anywhere near its goal of 30K new jobs and 40K new residents (plus more in the hopefully gentrifying surrounding hoods) in the next 30 years I think the demand would be there. And Im not the one hoping for Bloomingdales, Nordstroms or whatever. Id just like to see a Kohls, JC Penney, Sears, Barnes & Noble/Borders, Office Max/Staples and a Target. I dont think thats hoping for anything ridiculous and most of those stores don't have locations in Downtown or Midtown so it certainly seems to me like there would be a market for them.

Id also like to see an Ace Hardware but I think thats a better fit up in the Roosevelt neighborhood somewhere that people can park on the street while they load lumber and what not into their vehicles.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2009, 7:31 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,041
Unfortunately, I think downtown will always suffer from the same fate of years past - too close to better potential sites. Take Target, for example. They are already at one end of the LRT, just a few miles north of downtown. Unless they did a scaled back Target Marketplace concept, you couldn't justify another in downtown. Kohls already passed on their Town & Country Mervyns location. If they were going to consider the central city, Camelback makes the most sense. Most places that don't exist downtown either exist in midtown or don't exist at all within a 15mile radius of downtown. If you were going to construct a giant retail location and had to choose between downtown or midtown, I think the options are obvious. We would need at least 50k people living full time downtown before anyone considered another department store downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #49  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2009, 8:24 AM
PhxPavilion's Avatar
PhxPavilion PhxPavilion is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicelord John View Post
unfortunately, he isn't. I deal with people every day that won't go anywhere that has a Phoenix address. I've almost started physical fights with people by telling them Kierland is in Phoenix. They just don't want to hear it and are scared of anything with Phoenix in it. I had a lady today tell me she doesn't go into Chicago because she doesn't want to get killed and stays near her home in Highland Park.
Incredible. I know some people have a general aversion to Phoenix but the Biltmore?! I just don't understand.

Quote:
People are just.... stupid.
Definitely can't argue there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2009, 9:11 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,041
I may have to retract my previous statement about Target. Ben Bethel (owner of the Clarendon) just told me that Target was replacing AJs in CityScape
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #51  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2009, 9:25 PM
Tito714 Tito714 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 167
Are you serious? Are you seroius!!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2009, 10:33 PM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by glynnjamin View Post
I may have to retract my previous statement about Target. Ben Bethel (owner of the Clarendon) just told me that Target was replacing AJs in CityScape
Hm its way too small of a space for a normal Target so it would definitely have to be a Target Marketplace or whatever they call them. Id be happy to have a Target downtown, but that seems to me to mean we'd still be w/ out a grocery store.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #53  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2009, 11:08 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Eastlake, Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 5,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tito714 View Post
Are you serious? Are you seroius!!!
Yes, he is serious that he heard that, but no, it isn't true. Ben Bethel is a d o u c h e b a g. He will do anything to hype his failing hotel or anything nearby it.

Target will NOT be at shittyscape.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2009, 10:19 PM
oliveurban's Avatar
oliveurban oliveurban is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tempe, AZ
Posts: 2,908
Unless it is a modified Target concept, I don't see the company opening up a location at Cityscape. I would imagine this is a bit of hearsay on Ben's part. He probably heard something from someone else, who heard something from someone else, etc., etc., all having been sourced from inaccurate information (or wishful thinking) to begin with. If it happens I'll gladly eat my words, but I just don't think it would or could happen at Cityscape. Elsewhere Downtown? Maybe. Someday.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #55  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2009, 10:47 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Eastlake, Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 5,404
I heard they are building a huge six flags on the other side of the white tanks. they already own the land and are getting ready to start construction right now!!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 2:17 AM
soleri soleri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 4,246
Ben Bethel is fairly well connected so any scuttlebutt he has should be respected. With the Bashas' bankruptcy, AJ's seems even more of a mirage.

A few things about Arizona Center. Rouse Company, which is responsible for the concept and design, was used to building in city centers with other amenities and attractions. Quincy Marketplace in Boston, or Harborplace in Baltimore are examples. In Phoenix, they had to create everything from scratch since the urban texture was so burned over. They ended up manufacturing a "city in a park" ala Le Corbusier. These things seems enchanting in the abstract but usually fail the crucial litmus test of walkable urbanism that interweaves new development with existing uses.

There are much better downtowns than Phoenix's that have too little retail. Denver, Kansas City, LA, and Dallas come to mind. Adding a Target seems like a rather irrelevant wish since it's very unlikely to interface with the existing downtown. Cityscape's retail efforts will likely suffer the same fate as Arizona Center's since it cannot fully embrace downtown. This is being done for a reason since downtown shop owners are leery of derelicts hanging out and scaring off customers.

Arizona Center's retail mix at the outset was interesting but probably doomed to failure. Why drive downtown, park in a garage (which people hate) in order to shop at stores that you could probably find in a more convenient location closer to home? Once the novelty factor wore off, what would bring people back? As nice as the gardens are, they weren't quite extensive enough to become a destination in themselves.

The lesson here is that cities cannot be force-fed vitality. In LA, The Grove (in the mid-Wilshire area) is successful but it still feels artificial. In Denver, the Pavilions have been more successful than Arizona Center but still suffers from a similar syndrome where suburban shopping values put on urban drag but are otherwise the same old thing.

In my Melrose neighborhood, the interesting stores are still coming despite the economic downturn. Rents are low enough to attract creative entrepreneurs and the area's cachet has increased dramatically. The saddest thing about our downtown is that the old retail infrastructure is largely gone, and with it, the incubators for really interesting retail.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 2:42 AM
Don B. Don B. is offline
...
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 9,184
Why is it drivers hate parking in garages? I happen to be one of those drivers, and I can't rationalize my dislike of this at all. If you think about it, my dislike really makes no sense at all.

--don
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 3:14 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Eastlake, Phoenix, Arizona
Posts: 5,404
How exactly is ben bethel connected? He is an idiot.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #59  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 4:26 AM
HooverDam's Avatar
HooverDam HooverDam is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Country Club Park, Greater Coronado, Midtown, Phoenix, Az
Posts: 4,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by soleri View Post
ala Le Corbusier.
And theres your problem right there. Anything that anyone designs that reminds the mof Corbusier ought to be immediately tossed in the trash can.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 2:32 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,041
I can tell you why I hate parking in the AZCenter garage - because the spaces are way too small! I drive a god damn hybrid compact car and find those angled parking spaces to be a tight fit. You might as well forget about it if anything bigger than a sedan is in the spot next to you.

The other garage I hate is the one just south of Nordstroms at Fashion Square. Watching giant SUVs try and maneuver those tight corners is terrifying when you're on the other side.

As far as target goes, I don't hold any more weight in Ben Bethel than I do in ljbuild, I was just passing along what I heard because he said it right after I said target would never build downtown. I guess we will all find out tomorrow at the State of Downtown event.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 8:53 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.