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  #41  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 6:56 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
What price point do you consider affordable for most people, if you don't mind me asking?
Please refer to my edited version of the post, that shows that affordability has stayed relatively the same for the last 20 years.

Dollar amounts are going up in house pricing, but so are wages.

That's the only logical conclusion one can come to when the % of income required is actually lower than it was in 1990, even though prices have exploded.

It also shows that the % of income required to own a condo in Vancouver and Toronto are essentially the same.

RBC actually concludes that Vancouver has become slightly less "unaffordable" in the last year despite a 6.5% rise in prices.

I'm not in the position to judge what's affordable to most people. The market does that all by itself...
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  #42  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:03 AM
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40% of what?
I believe wages have only risen at the same rate as inflation for 80% of us, while housing prices have skyrocketed.
     
     
  #43  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:05 AM
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Well, it's nice to believe that, but when the statistics actually show that for the last 20 years it has required a consistent 30% - 40% of household income that's another thing entirely.

30% of 100 = 30, 30% of 1000 = 300. It's the same percentage but magically a bigger number...

It's actually a lower percentage now than it was in 1990~
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  #44  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
Please refer to my edited version of the post, that shows that affordability has stayed relatively the same for the last 20 years.

Dollar amounts are going up in house pricing, but so are wages.

That's the only logical conclusion one can come to when the % of income required is actually lower than it was in 1990, even though prices have exploded.

It also shows that the % of income required to own a condo in Vancouver and Toronto are essentially the same.

RBC actually concludes that Vancouver has become slightly less "unaffordable" in the last year despite a 6.5% rise in prices.

I'm not in the position to judge what's affordable to most people. The market does that all by itself...
Heh? This quote is from your article:

In our view, the area’s poor affordability—the RBC Measures for Vancouver are still far above their long-run average—will continue to weigh on local demand and cause a high degree of stress within the market (bold mine)

And note the key phrase "local demand".
     
     
  #45  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:09 AM
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Yes, it is generally referring to single family homes that has seen a big spike

logan5 had specifically asked about condos, hence why I'm only talking about condos at the moment...

But single family homes are also slightly lower income % than in 1990 and has dropped the last 4 years while prices have risen.

Anyways, a sense of unaffordability in Vancouver is not a new phenomenon as the graphs show.

The nice side of the train tracks always costs more I'm quite sure it was complained about all through the 90's, too.
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  #46  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:10 AM
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So I can buy a place for 40% of my income?
     
     
  #47  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
Well, it's nice to believe that, but when the statistics actually show that for the last 20 years it has required a consistent 30% - 40% of household income that's another thing entirely.

30% of 100 = 30, 30% of 1000 = 300. It's the same percentage but magically a bigger number...

It's actually a lower percentage now than it was in 1990~
There is no way wages have risen at the same rate as housing prices. All due respect to your stats.
Condos included
     
     
  #48  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:16 AM
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lol obviously it is talking about the "average" income of the city. I have no idea what your income is.

If you make $10 you won't buy a place for $4, if you make $10 million you could buy a pretty spiffy place for $4 million.

And you're going to have to take that up with RBC if you don't believe their financial analysis of the last 25 years...

They kind of have billions of dollars relying on their analysis, not just their opinion lol

And FYI they are referring mostly to mortgage carrying costs... the payment would be 40% of the average monthly income.

Not just higher wages, but substantially lower interest rates, have resulted in the actual cost being lower.

Is anyone old enough to remember what double digit interest rates look like~?
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  #49  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
lol obviously it is talking about the "average" income of the city. I have no idea what your income is.

If you make $10 you won't buy a place for $4, if you make $10 million you could buy a pretty spiffy place for $4 million.

And you're going to have to take that up with RBC if you don't believe their financial analysis of the last 25 years...

They kind of have billions of dollars relying on their analysis, not just their opinion lol

And FYI they are referring mostly to mortgage carrying costs... the payment would be 40% of the average monthly income.

Not just higher wages, but substantially lower interest rates, have resulted in the actual cost being lower.
The important word is average.

In the last 25 years, 30% of new income generated by our economy has been gobbled up by the top 1%. And a disproportionate share has been taken up by the top 20%.

Most of us have stagnated.
     
     
  #50  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:30 AM
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I should have said median, not average. That is what the data is based on.

It's unclear to me what median income they are using, though I would guess it's around the median income StatsCan has put out at over $68,000 which has risen from $56,000 in 2004.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

Now I would actually love to see the stats backing up any of your perceived statistics *_*

The ones that show both the Canadian government and RBC are lying about income rising and affordability measures staying consistent...
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  #51  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:41 AM
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Anyways, myself as a single person, I could hope to get a one bedroom in an older building here in mt. pleasant, and i make more than most.
     
     
  #52  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:48 AM
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Well, you know, there's nothing wrong with that. You get by with what you can.

You *could* take that money and move away to the middle of nowhere and have yourself a big house, or you could choose to live in one of the cities consistently ranked among the top in the World. A place to live is a lot less of a permanent thing these days, the turnover is amazing. 50 years ago people would put down roots and *stay*, only once they could afford it. Nowadays we have starter homes, and you can work your way on up depending on what stage of life you're going through. I don't know how old you are, but with younger people today it's easy to see it as a bit "hopeless", isn't it?

Well, back when people made $170 a month and houses were $12,000 it wasn't really all that much better lol but people get by.

It's crazy to think my grandparents, in their lifetime, never did get around to paying off their $60,000 mortgage.
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  #53  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Yume-sama View Post
There are a ridiculous amount of extenuating circumstances to Spain, Greece, Iceland, Ireland Europe, etc. that one can not possibly honestly compare Vancouver (and thus Canada as a whole) to them. It is really grasping at straws~ It has a lot to do with IMF policies, government actions, etc. that one can not even go in to because it would take weeks to study the issue completely, and I wouldn't feel comfortable debating the issue without knowing *all* of the facts (and frankly I don't care that much ). Of course, that doesn't stop people who know none of the facts from saying such broad statements.

There were mass anti-IMF demonstrations throughout Europe in Iceland, Ireland, Spain, Greece etc...

You are right in a very *general* sense that foreign involvement was behind their downfall But it went way beyond a wealthy Asian buying a condo in Barcelona.

To claim otherwise is absurdly (and knowingly deceitfully) simplistic.
I wasnt talking about their economies right now. I was talking about foreign speculation driving up their real estate prices to the point where most citizens could no longer enter the market. All these countries were forced to develop policies to stop foreign speculation in realestate.

Australia was one among the latest to tighten the rules last year.

Quote:
* Government cracks down on homebuyers
* Foreigners will have to sell as they leave
* Hotline set up to 'dob in' rule breachers

FOREIGN students and temporary residents will face tough new rules when buying a house and will have to sell on leaving Australia.

The Federal Government's crackdown, to be announced today, reverses its December 2008 decision to relax foreign ownership rules.

Bowing to public pressure, the Government will also introduce a hotline for concerned locals to "dob in" foreigners they suspect of breaching the rules.

Under the rules, temporary residents and foreign students will be:

SCREENED by the Foreign Investment Review Board to determine if they will be allowed to buy a property.

FORCED to sell property when they leave Australia.

PUNISHED if they do not sell by a government-ordered sale plus confiscation of any capital gain.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
Related Coverage

* Dob-in line fails in property crackdown Perth Now, 18 Jan 2011
* Foreign land grab on Aussie farms Perth Now, 14 Nov 2010
* Property auction sales take a plunge The Australian, 13 Jun 2010
* Tax reform to hit foreign investment The Australian, 2 Jun 2010
* Foreigners buy up Aussie homes Perth Now, 26 May 2010

End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
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REQUIRED to build on vacant land within two years of purchase to stop "land banking". Failure to do so would also lead to a government-ordered sale.

There have been growing claims that real estate prices have been forced up by wealthy Asian families, especially from China and Korea, buying up property and outbidding locals at auctions.


The Government is concerned by anecdotal reports that foreigners are "collecting" houses, often in the same street, and leaving them empty when there is a shortage of housing.

Assistant Treasurer Senator Nick Sherry said he wanted to ensure foreigners did not put "pressure on housing availability for Australians".

Treasury is investigating 50 suspicious residential buys by foreigners in Melbourne.

Senator Sherry said the changes would "ensure that investment is in Australia's interests and in line with community expectations".

He said the Government would catch cheats with new powers allowing it to cross-match information from Land Victoria and the Immigration Department.

It will also rely on members of the public to report suspicious property buyers to a new hotline: 1 800 031 227.

"I want to make sure everyone in the community has a direct line to report their concerns," Senator Sherry said.

"If you do the wrong thing, you will be found out."

New penalties, which may be linked to the value of the property, will apply to buyers, sellers and estate agents.

There is no data showing how many properties have been bought by temporary residents.

Since the Government's 2008 change, the median house price in Melbourne has risen from $450,000 to $524,500.

Foreigners living overseas are still prevented from buying existing homes and only allowed to buy or build new ones.

Read more: http://www.news.com.au/money/propert...#ixzz1FEn1IDpE
Sounds familiar???

And keep in mind that Australia like most western countries was already preventing overseas foreigners from buying properties.

Canada on the other hand...
     
     
  #54  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:53 AM
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lol changing national regulations for "50 suspicious buys" is a bit much.

Australia has had quite a lot of trouble with racist undertones recently. Methinks this could be more discrete racism on their part.

Canada should not aim to be as xenophobic as Australia, nor should we take race relation lessons from them.
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  #55  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 7:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dubsH View Post
That's very true. They want a crash so they can buy-in, and then they hope that from then on prices will keep on going up. Classic "I want everybody around me to fail but me". I don't own a home (yet), but I don't see where all this fear-mongering is coming from. Honestly though, if you want to buy a house, move into an obscure village away from the cities. The cities are always going to be increasingly expensive if they're desirable.

Inicidentally (and off-topic, since this is a pretty off-topic thread, which has been rehashed time and time again by the usual suspects), I remember reading some years ago on this forum that someone wished that inheritances were not allowed and that parents could not pass on their wealth to their children, and that all their assets would get donated to charity (presumably to prevent the trust fund kids from showing off). Imagine if you spent all your life savings into a dwelling that you could not even keep or pass on! I would just rent...heh... it was an absurd suggestion, but I still remember it quite clearly.

If you haven't saved yet, and you're looking to buy, you'll be at the same place you are today and when you're at the "impending apocalypse" of the housing market. Or worse, since the local economy will tank with it.
That was my suggestion

Infact it was Warren Buffets suggestion
But he wouldn't know anything about the subject
     
     
  #56  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 8:00 AM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post

This is a really touchy issue, not only because Vancouver has, and has always had, a large Asian population, but also because many forum members themselves are Asian and are going to feel offended by many remarks on this topic, be they made here or elsewhere. I've made one or two rude remarks and got rightly slapped for it.

However ... from a purely pragmatic point of view, if a wealthy Chinese person currently living and working in China (no, not necessarily HK) has made a lot of money and wants to keep it in a tax-haven, or stable investment, it is only natural that they buy expensive houses here. That's just good business, from their point of view.

For average Canadians - of whatever race - working steady, perhaps after five years of university - the prospect of never being able to buy even a starter home seems grossly unfair and a slap in the face. Maybe it is. Or maybe that's just "business is business; let the market decide." Forumers can debate that one.

There are, however, measures that a government CAN take (if it has the will) that are not exclusivist, but put a limit on offshore money driving the real estate market through the roof.

An example is Australia, where offshore (yes, mostly Asian) investors CAN buy expensive properties, BUT ONLY IF THEY ACTUALLY RESIDE IN THEM. This puts the brakes on tax-break money inflating the market like a balloon, and mitigates anti-foreigner resentment. ** In fact, this has been mentioned before, somewhere here on SSP Vancouver, I forget where.

The real culprit is a "sell-your-own-mother" government that drops its pants and bends forward just to make a quick buck at any price, to cater to whatever lobby it's catering to.

There is too much black-and-white thinking in Canada (and hey, I'm an ignoramus on all this, so please don't yell at me) .... but a happy and reasonable medium can surely be found if people are willing to to look at all the angles, think things through, and pass laws accordingly. Thank you.
And you said exactly what I said and was thinking but a hundred times better.
     
     
  #57  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Nutterbug View Post
So we should really be hoping for a Chinese collapse, so that we have more buying power compared to them?

Anyways, what you say is interesting. It reminds me of what an old Czech friend told me. Shortly after the fall of the Iron Curtain, and while the native Czechs were severely set back after 70 years of communism, it was the wealthy Germans who bought up property and inflated the prices there.
And that is why they very quickly had to develop policies to stop that out there.
     
     
  #58  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 8:02 AM
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People find ways around the inheritance tax. There are people with safety deposit boxes stuffed full with hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it's easy enough to transfer properties.

Quote:
Some critics have argued that Buffett (through Berkshire Hathaway) has a personal interest in the continuation of the estate tax, since Berkshire Hathaway has benefited from the estate tax in past business dealings and had developed and marketed insurance policies to protect policy holders against future estate tax payments
Imagine that~ lol I'm sure he'd do everything he could to avoid taxes, too.

Anyone with real wealth is smart enough not to keep it around here in the open, anyways.
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  #59  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 8:04 AM
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lol I actually remember the talk about the inheritances should be outlawed

It is natural, and of the human nature to be "jealous". It is always easy to be for social justice, etc. as a young person until it's something of yours that is being taken to make it equal. Then it is really not quite so much fun. However, I think it is important to NOT be jealous, and instill in the minds of young people not a sense of entitlement (which you definitely learn when you go to universities ), but a sense that we live in a place where if you try hard enough, and make smart choices, you can do anything, and have anything you want.

Anyways, I've volunteered as a youth mentor for quite awhile (God help them, right? ) and we try to tell them that they can do whatever they want, be whoever they want, and get whatever they want through hard work. Because it's true. If we told them that they could laze through school, get poor grades, major in something useless, do drugs and party all the time, and then suck off the government tit to become successful, I'm sure so many of them would have turned out differently (rather than getting academic scholarships).... your position in life is usually your fault, but sometimes you don't know better.

Shoot for the moon and you might just get there. Aiming low is only cheating yourself.
Its not jealousy, its sound policy. Also like I have said before I think you are with all due respect probably the last person here to have a unbiased opinion regarding this subject matter.
     
     
  #60  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2011, 8:10 AM
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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
And that is why they very quickly had to develop policies to stop that out there.
So what do you *realistically* suggest be done? You complain a lot but are short on actual real life solutions.
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