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  #21  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2014, 6:03 PM
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TheNovaScotian TheNovaScotian is offline
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Haha I didn't realize it was this thread. I go to Dal and spoke to the people to!
The developer should really just offer the wall, with the mural, which most of those silly people were worried about.
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  #22  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 3:47 AM
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So according to an AllNovaScotia article tonight the public information meeting for this was quite entertaining. Apparently ~60 people showed up and most of those who spoke were against it. Danny Chedrawe (NOT behind this project) and a couple of planners were in favour but got heckled bad by the other residents.

I do recommend my fellow forumers email the municipal planner (or wait and email the Municipal Clerk before the public hearing) to voice your opinions.
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  #23  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 4:31 AM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Originally Posted by Dmajackson View Post
So according to an AllNovaScotia article tonight the public information meeting for this was quite entertaining. Apparently ~60 people showed up and most of those who spoke were against it. Danny Chedrawe (NOT behind this project) and a couple of planners were in favour but got heckled bad by the other residents.

I do recommend my fellow forumers email the municipal planner (or wait and email the Municipal Clerk before the public hearing) to voice your opinions.
I would have gone, but I actually have work to do.

Sigh. How many stages of approval does this thing need to go through?

A tortured, ugly, pathetic process: HRM development follows the rules.
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  #24  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 12:09 PM
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I would have gone, but I actually have work to do.

Sigh. How many stages of approval does this thing need to go through?

A tortured, ugly, pathetic process: HRM development follows the rules.
It was publicly announced in December, it has been four months! An a couple months it goes to a joint HWCC/HRM Council session and public hearing for consideration of the MPS change. This is not tortured, is is expedited - you cannot get an MPS/Comprehensive Plan change in any jurisdiction in weeks and months, these things always require public input. When I spoke about this with the Toronto Developer building Southport he said a fast approval in Toronto is 18-24 months.
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  #25  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
It was publicly announced in December, it has been four months! An a couple months it goes to a joint HWCC/HRM Council session and public hearing for consideration of the MPS change. This is not tortured, is is expedited - you cannot get an MPS/Comprehensive Plan change in any jurisdiction in weeks and months, these things always require public input. When I spoke about this with the Toronto Developer building Southport he said a fast approval in Toronto is 18-24 months.
It sure does. Halifax development timelines are simply not as onerous as a lot of people think--stuff takes a long time to get from proposal to approval pretty much anywhere. (And in Ontario, a municipality's approval or rejection of a project can then be appealed to the Ontario Municipal Board, resulting in even more haggling and wrangling and delaying.)
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  #26  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 4:03 PM
counterfactual counterfactual is offline
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Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
It was publicly announced in December, it has been four months! An a couple months it goes to a joint HWCC/HRM Council session and public hearing for consideration of the MPS change. This is not tortured, is is expedited - you cannot get an MPS/Comprehensive Plan change in any jurisdiction in weeks and months, these things always require public input. When I spoke about this with the Toronto Developer building Southport he said a fast approval in Toronto is 18-24 months.
I wasn't really lamenting the timeline, I was lamenting what apparently happened at the "public" input meeting. I'm more familiar with HRMxD approvals, not so much DAs where planning by-laws may need to be amended.

As for "tortured"-- you don't think someone coming to the meeting to support the proposal and getting shouted down by NIMBYs isn't an embarrassment? And some people getting to speak TWICE?

As if that meeting is an accurate representation of the community; looking at the list of names speaking, sounds like it was the Heritage Troop and STV brigade taking the place over.

It's the same old story over and over. Local property owners have a vested interest in opposing development. Essentially, opposing newer, nicer, rental opportunities for people who do not have the financial capacity to own homes or property.

SAVE THE VIEW FROM ATOP COBURG! YES. ALL THE HOMEOWNERS CAN AGREE WITH THAT: WE DON'T NEED NICER PLACES FOR STUDENTS, "SINGLES", OR PROFESSIONALS TO LIVE AROUND HERE. GIVE THEM ANOTHER DUMPY RUNDOWN LANDLORD ABSENTEE BUILDING! YESSSS! PROPERTIED CLASS UNITE. WE HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT NEEDS CONVENIENCE STORE.

Last edited by counterfactual; Feb 20, 2014 at 4:24 PM.
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  #27  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 4:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
It sure does. Halifax development timelines are simply not as onerous as a lot of people think--stuff takes a long time to get from proposal to approval pretty much anywhere. (And in Ontario, a municipality's approval or rejection of a project can then be appealed to the Ontario Municipal Board, resulting in even more haggling and wrangling and delaying.)
See my post above. I was lamenting the ludicrous feedback, not the timeline.

It was a genuine question about the process for approval.
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  #28  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 5:19 PM
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See my post above. I was lamenting the ludicrous feedback, not the timeline.

It was a genuine question about the process for approval.
Ah, I see. Cool.

Still, there are a LOT of people who make that complaint about Halifax.
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  #29  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 8:52 PM
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This is sad.

The Carleton tower proposal better go through... that will be a game changer for density and the quality of this entire area.

They do know that needs is owned by the big Sobeys Corporation right?

Do non-residents get input? Most of these students will move back to Ontario shortly.
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  #30  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 8:56 PM
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Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian View Post
This is sad.

The Carleton tower proposal better go through... that will be a game changer for density and the quality of this entire area.

They do know that needs is owned by the big Sobeys Corporation right?

Do non-residents get input? Most of these students will move back to Ontario shortly.
Could you imagine if we got a little more density around the university? There might even be demand for an actual proper grocery store nearby.

I'm LOL'ing at the comments from the meeting, calling that intersection crazy like traffic. As if this tiny development will bring great traffic jams.

Last edited by counterfactual; Feb 20, 2014 at 9:10 PM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 11:41 PM
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Worthy of note: the Councillor for the area, our very own Mr. Mason, is also opposed to this project.

Who was chairing the meeting that allowed Ms. Bev Miller to speak twice, and others to shout down other speakers, I wonder?

Shameful.
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  #32  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 12:24 AM
worldlyhaligonian worldlyhaligonian is offline
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Worthy of note: the Councillor for the area, our very own Mr. Mason, is also opposed to this project.

Who was chairing the meeting that allowed Ms. Bev Miller to speak twice, and others to shout down other speakers, I wonder?

Shameful.
Ohhh snap! If this is true, its sad. The proposal is fine... the current situation is far from optimal. Its a frankenstein shop... groundfloor retail and land could be better used. New design is fine.

Don't get me wrong, I lived nearby at Robie and Coburg (or where Coburg becomes SGR) and went to this Needs daily. That being said, if I was in Dalhousie, I'd view this as a time to having a student run retail space on campus fulfill this role? The other store up the street is decent too... but who's kidding, if you want to go to real corner store you'd have to hit Jubilee Junction or the Big G.
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  #33  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 6:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Waye Mason View Post
It was publicly announced in December, it has been four months! An a couple months it goes to a joint HWCC/HRM Council session and public hearing for consideration of the MPS change. This is not tortured, is is expedited - you cannot get an MPS/Comprehensive Plan change in any jurisdiction in weeks and months, these things always require public input. When I spoke about this with the Toronto Developer building Southport he said a fast approval in Toronto is 18-24 months.
Interesting - here in Calgary we require you undertake your land use amendment (rezoning - which can include a policy amendment) and then your Development Permit. The Development Permit (particularly multi-residential development) tends to be what we call a discretionary use meaning the public has an opportunity to comment and a right of appeal, but the rezoning and policy amendment cannot be appealed (although public consultation and a public hearing is required).

Under the new planning system we are moving towards (aka Transforming Planning) the idea has been to setup a lot of the tough conversations ahead of time and that these conversations include both the land use (rezoning) discussions and then the discussions on the building. What this will move too is allowing a developer submit a joint application for rezoning and development permit at the same time BUT the permit would not be approved until the rezoning is done. So we could progress it to a certain point but then would have to wait for the rezoning public hearing to occur and be passed by Council (all three readings and the bylaw signed). Once that occurs, then we would be good to go with an approval or scheduling the item to Calgary Planning Commission.

We are still in early days of progressing with the new system (first steps start in week 1 of March); but I've always believed this was the way forward. It didn't waste people's time with multiple meetings and discussions on certain types of applications and then the comments didn't make sense (ie: bringing up issues that were more Development Permit related, versus whether the rezoning was appropriate or not - this happens all the time).

But we are averaging somewhere between 6 to 12 months for typical to complex rezoning applications (depending on how complex it becomes). When I did the development permit for the "Lido" in Kensington, I think from the time it came in the door (March) it ended up at Planning Commission in November (and a month of that is mainly deadlines for drafting and finalizing the report, so it was about 8 months. As I recall; we had some last minute issues come up that caused a delay plus everything went off the rails once the flood happened.
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  #34  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 5:37 PM
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It sure does. Halifax development timelines are simply not as onerous as a lot of people think--stuff takes a long time to get from proposal to approval pretty much anywhere. (And in Ontario, a municipality's approval or rejection of a project can then be appealed to the Ontario Municipal Board, resulting in even more haggling and wrangling and delaying.)
Well, once council makes a decision on this one it can be appealed to the NSUARB, which is similar to the OMB. This entire process has taken years for some proposals, which means that every developer has to worry about that possibility. The 6-12 month approval timeline outside of HbD is a best-case scenario.

Based on the comments you'd think the developer is proposing Fenwick II. There's a serious lack of perspective -- the same old South Enders like to make as much noise as they can about as many developments as they can. If they got their way the city would effectively be stuck in 1980.
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  #35  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 7:21 PM
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Halifax needs a bridge over the North West Arm, a harbor crossing to Woodside and an improved road to connect the two.
Maybe then those in the south end who want to save the city just for themselves will get a better idea about the future of Halifax.
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  #36  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 9:33 PM
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Halifax needs a bridge over the North West Arm, a harbor crossing to Woodside and an improved road to connect the two.
Maybe then those in the south end who want to save the city just for themselves will get a better idea about the future of Halifax.
Agreed. Those voices need a serious reality check.

Sadly, many of our elected municipal officials are pandering to special interests and ignorant voters in general by stating their opposition to such projects. Note that the mayor and both peninsular councillors oppose new bridges and the councillor for the area opposes this modest proposal as well. Simple vote-pandering, nothing more.
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  #37  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 11:01 PM
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Well of course Keith's thesis would be damning if it were true. As often is the case with Keith, it is not.

I didn't chair the meeting, the chair of the PAC did. Danny Chedrawe also spoke twice, as did about half dozen supporters (planners, developers, locals). The practice at PIMS (which are not public hearings) has been that people can speak as often as they want, it is more of a conversation format. I am not sure this is a good idea, personally, but it is not exactly shocking or news. It's been that way for decades.
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  #38  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 12:02 AM
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Well, once council makes a decision on this one it can be appealed to the NSUARB, which is similar to the OMB. This entire process has taken years for some proposals, which means that every developer has to worry about that possibility. The 6-12 month approval timeline outside of HbD is a best-case scenario.

Based on the comments you'd think the developer is proposing Fenwick II. There's a serious lack of perspective -- the same old South Enders like to make as much noise as they can about as many developments as they can. If they got their way the city would effectively be stuck in 1980.
This, x20000.

Also, you can only appeal a decision of the OMB, if the board made an error of law. That's typically not what's at stake in a planning decision. It's usually a question of fact-- based on expert opinions, etc.

By contrast, according to the UARB FAQ, you can appeal the UARB to either the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal, depending on how you'd like to challenge. Each of those court decisions, could lead to further appeals, cross appeals, further motions, etc, etc. The Supreme Court can be appealed to the Court of Appeal and the Court of Appeal to the SCC. That can take years to settle.

So: the whole problem with the traditional DA process, was the risk, from the get go, that you could be tied up in litigation for years and years, fighting a well funded / wealthy / faux outrage machine, like these wealthy Sound End property owners and their various advocacy vehicles, whether its the Heritage Committee, Heritage Foundation, STV, Friends of whatever they are friends with this week.

That is the chill on developments. And we're seeing them here, out in full force, making a mockery of the proposal process, making clowns of themselves.

Last edited by counterfactual; Feb 22, 2014 at 12:15 AM.
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  #39  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 12:14 AM
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Well of course Keith's thesis would be damning if it were true. As often is the case with Keith, it is not.

I didn't chair the meeting, the chair of the PAC did. Danny Chedrawe also spoke twice, as did about half dozen supporters (planners, developers, locals). The practice at PIMS (which are not public hearings) has been that people can speak as often as they want, it is more of a conversation format. I am not sure this is a good idea, personally, but it is not exactly shocking or news. It's been that way for decades.
I read in the news that people speaking in support of the proposal were shouted down. Did the chair take steps to prevent this from happening?
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  #40  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 1:34 AM
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By contrast, according to the UARB FAQ, you can appeal the UARB to either the Supreme Court or the Court of Appeal, depending on how you'd like to challenge. Each of those court decisions, could lead to further appeals, cross appeals, further motions, etc, etc. The Supreme Court can be appealed to the Court of Appeal and the Court of Appeal to the SCC. That can take years to settle.
I think this is pretty uncommon though. It would be interesting to see statistics on the full approval pipeline: how much time it takes at each step, how many steps proposals go through, and approval or rejection.

I guess we'll see what happens with this case. It seems hard to argue that this building would actually be out of scale with the neighbourhood, or "inconsistent with the intent of the MPS" in a significant way. Most of the surrounding buildings are low-rise apartments just like this one or institutional buildings of similar scale.

I'm happy at least that we no longer have these debates about buildings downtown.
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