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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2005, 10:33 AM
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I live only 35 miles from the Honda factory in Lincoln, Alabama and it has for the most part, saved this town. Our 2nd largest industry closed down a few years ago, putting 1800 people on the street. 900 people from my county now work at Honda, another few hundred people work at the numerous feeder/supply plants that sprang up in counties surrounding the factory, including my own. Luckily, the Honda plant was already about to open when Gulf States closed down, so people here just played the waiting game until the plant started hiring.

As for reliability, I own a Toyota 4-Runner, a little Ford Ranger for buzzing around town, and a Ford Mustang I've had since I was in high school.

The 4-Runner has been recalled twice, for small things, but it is hella reliable. It isn't driven as much now since gas went through the roof, but it is a good solid SUV that has caused me no real problems.

On the other hand, you could drive my little Ranger into the river, and it would still start up and run. It is a cheap little truck, but solidly built and it has 98,000 miles on it and i have had zero problems with it.

The Mustang has become more problematic, but it is nearly 20 years old and has over 160,000 miles on it, but overall, it has been an amazing auto, causing me very little trouble. It has taken me across the country twice without incident. I am really going to be sad when that car finally dies, because I have never loved a car like I love that one, but the body is going to fall apart long before the engine does.

I guess what I am trying to say is, yes Detroit has and still can build some shit, but I also have to be fair and say that my experience with American cars has overall been positive. I would not be afraid to go down and put my hard earned money on an American car. In the 70's no. They were shit. In the 80's they improved alot in reliability, they were just rather generic looking. These days though, I have no issues with most American cars.

Sorry for the long post.

Last edited by Evan; Oct 21, 2005 at 10:42 AM.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2005, 3:14 PM
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How many foreign components are in American made products? At this point global industrialization has changed they way things are manufactured.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2005, 4:36 AM
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^american auto is the still same same cash cow that produced junk two decades ago. it's just a lot more globalized. the way things are manufactured hasn't really changed all that much. gm and ford are still unable to innovate because they're still lagging in per-vehicle cost compared with foreign counterparts - their focus on the suv and truck segment has kept them afloat until now. the amount of liability inherited from organized labor and poor management are to blame. the origin of parts or labor has very little to do with it.

Last edited by edluva; Oct 29, 2005 at 4:42 AM.
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2005, 1:12 PM
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That article is ridiculous.... Why would anyone only buy American made products just because it's got a sticker of old glory on it? As a smart consumer, everyone should be buying the best quality item for the best value, no matter what country it's made in and that is what determines which company sells the most product. Do you think someone in Japan should only buy products made in their country? If a foreign construction company refused to buy Caterpillar machinery then people in the US working for Caterpillar would be losing their jobs.... It's been proven over and over that free trade among all the countries of the world is what creates compeitition and forces better quality merchandise to be made for the cheapest price possible. It's a win-win for EVERY economy. You can't have a protectionist attitude towards global trade or you will get left behind in economic competitiveness.

Why can't hillbillies understand how a global economy and a free market system work?

Does ANYONE agree with me?
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2005, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Pride
That article is ridiculous.... Why would anyone only buy American made products just because it's got a sticker of old glory on it? As a smart consumer, everyone should be buying the best quality item for the best value, no matter what country it's made in and that is what determines which company sells the most product. Do you think someone in Japan should only buy products made in their country? If a foreign construction company refused to buy Caterpillar machinery then people in the US working for Caterpillar would be losing their jobs.... It's been proven over and over that free trade among all the countries of the world is what creates compeitition and forces better quality merchandise to be made for the cheapest price possible. It's a win-win for EVERY economy. You can't have a protectionist attitude towards global trade or you will get left behind in economic competitiveness.

Why can't hillbillies understand how a global economy and a free market system work?

Does ANYONE agree with me?
Dude, I agree with you. I won't buy something just because it has a "Made In USA" sticker on it. If I do buy an American auto, it is because it suited my needs, like my truck did, but I don't base my buying decisions on where something was made. If that were the case, I would have no televisions, no DVD players, no VCR, blah blah and so forth.

The American mindset of many is still stuck in the 1970's when the entire country was pounding on the BUY AMERICAN tom tom, and running around slicing the tires on Japanese cars and throwing their Sony products in the river. That's some ig'nunt redneck bullshit that unfortunately, is still in pockets all around the country.

I buy what I need, and like most people I consider price, needs, and my situation when making decisions. I don't give 2 farts in the wind where something was made. Toledo or Toykyo. Evan doesn't care, just give me a good product at a good price and I'm happy.

I am every bit as likely to buy an American product as an imported one IF it suits my needs and my price range, and vice versa, but I won't buy something just because it was made in an American factory by American workers.

This is the real world not a fantasy land. Like I said in my post above, I have no issue with the reliability of American cars these days, but that doesn't mean I am going to run out and buy a shitty base model Chevy just because its American when I can get a shitty base model Toyota for the same and sometimes, even lower price.

There is such a thing as national pride of course, but there is also such a thing as just being a dumbass redneck thinking that if it wasn't made in America, then you don't want it.

Last edited by Evan; Oct 30, 2005 at 12:01 PM.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 30, 2005, 3:19 PM
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I agree w/ both of you. I only buy foreign cars myself. My Dad is still driving his '93 Toyota Camary with 202K miles around with no problems! That is some ingenuity.
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 20, 2005, 5:27 PM
lost carolinian lost carolinian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PA Pride
That article is ridiculous.... Why would anyone only buy American made products just because it's got a sticker of old glory on it? As a smart consumer, everyone should be buying the best quality item for the best value, no matter what country it's made in and that is what determines which company sells the most product. Do you think someone in Japan should only buy products made in their country? If a foreign construction company refused to buy Caterpillar machinery then people in the US working for Caterpillar would be losing their jobs.... It's been proven over and over that free trade among all the countries of the world is what creates compeitition and forces better quality merchandise to be made for the cheapest price possible. It's a win-win for EVERY economy. You can't have a protectionist attitude towards global trade or you will get left behind in economic competitiveness.

Why can't hillbillies understand how a global economy and a free market system work?

Does ANYONE agree with me?

In complete agreement.

I could go into my personal and family's experiences with American cars, but it's the same story that everyone knows.

Even my old school father has finally had enough and vowed to go foreign next time. My in-laws, on the other hand, still have that irrational will to buy domestic.

American auto-makers had their chance to listen to William Deming back in the day, but opted to ignore his doctrines in statistical process and quality control. The Japanese listened, though, and he is viewed as being largely responsible for the post-war revolution in Japanese industry becoming quality and recognized as such.

Not that the American companies can't implement the same methods. I suppose that it boils down to management and business models. Maybe Detroit will wake up someday.
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 21, 2005, 12:37 AM
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My in-laws, on the other hand, still have that irrational will to buy domestic.
There's nothing irrational about it.
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 2:17 AM
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Actually, I can't really blame them. They've not had my luck with American cars, and Chevrolet seems to be on the better side of quality, as far as domestic alone is concerned.

After MY Saturn and Ford experiences, on the other hand, it would be highly irrational for ME to ever buy American again! Shame on me once and twice. Not about to repeat.
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 2:36 AM
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Originally Posted by lost carolinian
Shame on me once and twice. Not about to repeat.
fool me once, shame on ... shame on you... if fooled i can't get fooled again
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 2:50 AM
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To be honest, I don't really understand this "Japanese cars last longer" stuff. I see WAY more old American cars on the road than old Japanese cars.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:12 AM
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i thought you already established that american cars have caught up in reliablilty.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:26 AM
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^
That was my whole point.

In spite of the fact that I pointed that out, there's still a lot of people in this thread claiming that American cars break down easier and don't last.

But if that's true, then how come I still see so many Chevy's and Fords from the 60's, 70's and 80's on the road, but very few old Toyotas or Hondas.

When was the last time you saw a 70's or 80's Corolla still on the road? I probably haven't seen one for five or ten years.

On the other hand, I see old American cars on the road *all the time*
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:30 AM
lost carolinian lost carolinian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007
To be honest, I don't really understand this "Japanese cars last longer" stuff. I see WAY more old American cars on the road than old Japanese cars.

What, like at Carlisle in September?

j/k

Define "old."
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:45 AM
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Older than about 10 or 15 years.

I almost *never* see a Japanese car older than 15 years old still on the road.

But I still see old junker American cars on the road *all the time* - and I'm not just talking about collector cars.

For one example, last fall I used my boss' father's '78 Plymoth station wagon for about a month. Though it certainly had problems, it still ran and was in OK shape.

In contrast to that '78 Plymouth, I can't possibly remember the last time I saw a '78 Honda or Toyota still on the road.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:48 AM
lost carolinian lost carolinian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007
^
That was my whole point.

In spite of the fact that I pointed that out, there's still a lot of people in this thread claiming that American cars break down easier and don't last.

But if that's true, then how come I still see so many Chevy's and Fords from the 60's, 70's and 80's on the road, but very few old Toyotas or Hondas.

When was the last time you saw a 70's or 80's Corolla still on the road? I probably haven't seen one for five or ten years.

On the other hand, I see old American cars on the road *all the time*
Ahh, that's your "old." That's in part because prior to the eighties the Japanese models WERE crap! According to my almanac, the US market for Japanese cars did not really pick up until the mid-eighties.

The real answer to your question, however, lies in the fact that domestic sales have always been greater than foreign. In 1985 for example, domestic sales were 8,204,542 units versus total import sales of 2,837,745. Simply more domestics on the road to begin with.

Japanese sales actually decreased steadily and consistently over time relative to domestics. Hmmm, could this be because Japanese cars LAST?!

A truly fair comparison would be percentage remaining on the road by class (dom., for.) and model year.
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:55 AM
lost carolinian lost carolinian is offline
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He heh. I bet in France all of the cars on the road are new because:

Quote: "On an average Saturday night in France, he said, youths burn about 100 cars."

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe....ap/index.html

Never mind the riots!

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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 3:57 AM
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^^
I disagree. I don't know how old you are (I'm 41), but there were tons of people buying Japanese cars in the 70's and 80's . . . and one reason why people bought them was because they were purportedly of better quality than American cars. I had a 79 Honda Civic for a few years. But it had plenty of problems.

If there was about an 8:3 ratio of domestic to foreign cars sold in 1985, how come (aside from European cars), I *still* see FAR fewer foreign cars from around 1985 on the road than American cars? The ratio of American cars to Japanese cars from around 1985 that I still see on the road is more like 15:1, not 8:3.

Based on what I see on the road, I have no choice but to conclude that American cars last longer than Japanese ones. Start observing this yourself: Look around at all the old cars you see on the road, and notice how few of them are Japanese, and how many of them are American (and lots of European ones, too).
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 4:01 AM
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Japanese sales actually decreased steadily and consistently over time relative to domestics.
No way!!!

You yourself just said that Japanese car sales started taking off in the mid-80's. Now you're saying that their market share has been declining????

If the Japanese market share has been declining, then how come GM is having to lay off 30,000 due to overcapacity and declining market share? (Ditto Ford)
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 23, 2005, 4:14 AM
lost carolinian lost carolinian is offline
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007
No way!!!

You yourself just said that Japanese car sales started taking off in the mid-80's. Now you're saying that their market share has been declining????

If the Japanese market share has been declining, then how come GM is having to lay off 30,000 due to overcapacity and declining market share? (Ditto Ford)
Pick up an almanac and look at the hard DATA. Share on the rise from 1980, peaked in 1986, on the decline from there.

You're basing your entire argument on your demographic area. I live in yuppie Volvo-land, and it's primarily Japanese and European where I live. That's a small part of the universe and not representative of the whole, obviously.

WRT your second comment, I believe that all boils down to good old supply and demand does it not?
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