2017 CFL Season

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Have you ever actually watched a CFL game, or is your interest mainly limited to scouring attendance and viewership numbers so that you can find negative things to post here?

I am genuinely hard pressed to remember a comment of yours in this thread that wasn't in the vein of "oh oh, here's some ominous news"

Honestly, if you find the CFL that uninteresting, why not go find something else to do?

I'd rather some constructive discussion over why numbers are fluctuating or going up or down rather than attacking my posts. Is that possible?

Maybe something like "Oh, the stadium in Calgary is old..." or "Oh, the marketing is different this year". It's not as if the game isn't exciting - I thought last night's game was fantastic. So what's the deal? The product isn't really all that bad and the gamedays are pretty exciting, so why are in-person numbers dropping across the board? Toronto's season ticket holders halved over the off-season, Calgary's home-opener was the lowest matchday crowd in twenty years, Vancouver's physical gate is on a decline...what gives? Genuinely curious - but anytime I bring it up or ask I get told I don't understand it.

I'll routinely bring up attendance and viewership numbers for other sports and events in Canada but the CFL ones generally stick out as being on decline to some degree or at least middling whilst others show some positive growth. Will you chastise the posters on the previous page for discussing the lower viewership or are they exempt?

It's one thing to simply attack me because you don't like my posts but it's telling if you're willing to ignore the numbers at the same time.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's not as if the game isn't exciting - I thought last night's game was fantastic.

Yet your post is 100% about the announced attendance.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Yet your post is 100% about the announced attendance.

I don't really think I can provide any more analysis than what's provided by other users. If I wanted in-depth insight into the machinations of the on-field CFL I wouldn't come onto a skyscraper forum looking for it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I don't really think I can provide any more analysis than what's provided by other users. If I wanted in-depth insight into the machinations of the on-field CFL I wouldn't come onto a skyscraper forum looking for it.

Perhaps a new Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread might be appropriate for this type of "constructive discussion"? Page upon page of speculation as to why the Edmonton Eskimos upper corner end zone seats appear to be less full than they were in 2007, etc.

In fact, that's a great idea. I think I'll do it.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Perhaps a new Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread might be appropriate for this type of "constructive discussion"? Page upon page of speculation as to why the Edmonton Eskimos upper corner end zone seats appear to be less full than they were in 2007, etc.

In fact, that's a great idea. I think I'll do it.

This is more specific to the CFL, though, so I figured the users in this thread would be able to point me in the direction of why the gate figures at last night's Calgary game would have some sort of inkling and sense of why there's seems to be a trend in a number of vital markets in the league in that general direction. If attendance is down, and viewership is down at the same time, what's up?

If you don't want to hear or read about the numbers that's fine - you don't have to read my posts or reply to them; but the general reaction is concerning.

[HomerSPC]

Originally Posted by JHikka

This is more specific to the CFL, though, so I figured the users in this thread would be able to point me in the direction of why the gate figures at last night's Calgary game would have some sort of inkling and sense of why there's seems to be a trend in a number of vital markets in the league in that general direction. If attendance is down, and viewership is down at the same time, what's up?

If you don't want to hear or read about the numbers that's fine - you don't have to read my posts or reply to them; but the general reaction is concerning.

I'd attribute the decline in attendance to Canada's 150th right around the corner. Its a big holiday, and parks are free to enter, so I feel a lot of people are going to be taking advantage of that.

[blueandgoldguy]

Argos do a nice job of celebrating Canada's 150th birthday with 150 people in attendance tonight at BMO Field.

[GORDBO]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Argos do a nice job of celebrating Canada's 150th birthday with 150 people in attendance tonight at BMO Field.

They said once the Argo's left the confines of the big bad Skydome [Rogers Centre} the attendance problem would correct itself !

Is that kind of like Trudeau saying " The budget will balance itself " ?

[esquire]

Still a pretty decent outing for Ricky Ray last night despite the loss, 30/45, 327 yards. No rushing game whatsoever though, 22 yards total. It's tough to know what to make the Argos at this point in the season.

Anyway, the real weekend highlight yet is to come as the Bombers get set to crash the party in Saskatchewan

[blueandgoldguy]

So what was with the penalty against the Montreal Alouettes offensive lineman on the Als TD versus the Esks last night. TD was negated and Als settled for a field goal.

I'm not sure what the ref said...even the announcers were confused...something about the offensive lineman helping the running back into the end zone?

There was also an absolute bush league mistake by the official in charge of the clock. Inside the 3-minute warning at which point the time on the game clock and 20-second clock should not commence until the ref blows the whistle, the time on the game clock counted off 10 - 15 seconds before the 20-second clock commenced.

Even off-concussed Matt Dunigan noticed this while Rod Black was his usual clueless self. The mistake was never corrected by the officials. Just bush league!

I guess it didn't matter as the Eskies got a first down anyways and would have run out the clock even with an extra 10 seconds but what happens in the game where the opposition should have more time for a game-tying or game-winning drive following a punt?

[HomerSPC]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

There was also an absolute bush league mistake by the official in charge of the clock. Inside the 3-minute warning at which point the time on the game clock and 20-second clock should not commence until the ref blows the whistle, the time on the game clock counted off 10 - 15 seconds before the 20-second clock commenced.

Even off-concussed Matt Dunigan noticed this while Rod Black was his usual clueless self. The mistake was never corrected by the officials. Just bush league!

I'm honestly getting tired of the CFL being called bush league by CFL fans. Have pride in your league. Screw ups happen. They happen in the NFL, they happen in the CFL. Be happy that they occurred early in the season so they can be corrected, and not in the championship game where they can't.

[Marshal]

Sports talk is not my thing, but I like sports; especially the CFL and the Lions. Exciting first two games. Happy with the progress across the roster. The one thing I am unhappy about is Lulay. I want to see him moved (I know he doesn't want to) so I can watch him play as anyone else's starter.

Attendance discussions should be a welcome subject here. We don't need a separate thread, and people should stop complaining about those who wish to discuss the numbers. If you don't like it, ignore.

CFL attendance seems to be ebbing once again. I see no obvious reason.
But, what I really want is a statistician to explain why attendance figures, for any league, do not relate to the size of the market. The BC game at BMO was shocking for the emptiness. Interest is obviously at a low point (in spite of the Argos being entertaining/competitive enough), but one would think that a crowd of 20,000 could be generated by accident (if nothing else) in such a large city. Or, vise versa, the crowd for that game should be easily generated in a city the size of Peterborough, or even Cobourg. 'Don't get it.'

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Sports talk is not my thing, but I like sports; especially the CFL and the Lions. Exciting first two games. Happy with the progress across the roster. The one thing I am unhappy about is Lulay. I want to see him moved (I know he doesn't want to) so I can watch him play as anyone else's starter.

Attendance discussions should be a welcome subject here. We don't need a separate thread, and people should stop complaining about those who wish to discuss the numbers. If you don't like it, ignore.

CFL attendance seems to be ebbing once again. I see no obvious reason.
But, what I really want is a statistician to explain why attendance figures, for any league, do not relate to the size of the market. The BC game at BMO was shocking for the emptiness. Interest is obviously at a low point (in spite of the Argos being entertaining/competitive enough), but one would think that a crowd of 20,000 could be generated by accident (if nothing else) in such a large city. Or, vise versa, the crowd for that game should be easily generated in a city the size of Peterborough, or even Cobourg. 'Don't get it.'

Not all markers are equal. If you only have 50k fans in a market of 2 million then you have to bank on almost each of them showing up to games. Some markets overrepresente their attention and commitment to teams versus others. It also isn't a blanket across the board.

The Raptors for example get little traction nationwide but within Southern Ontario there is probably 250k diehards who will show up and consume all things Raptors.

The Argos would do better in a GTA suburban city that could rally around them. They would draw 23-25K consistently if they played in Vaughan which is larger than some CFL markets on its own.

Teams in KW, London, etc would do well. Many mid markets that would be the equivalents of Sacramento, Cincinnati and Kansas City in the USA that would thrive with one large scale team. Obviously the Stadium issue is the biggest hurdle but the CFL does nobody favours with a non central model that can't promise a profit. In MLS you are able to get such aggressive expansion, with local influencers able to try and twist the public for stadium money, largely for the fact the MLS can st least attempt to promise a cheque each year and to be in the black if you don't spend yourself poor. CFL can't promise that. Until it does it will likely never see a league beyond 9-10 teams.

The Toronto market is strange. I keep saying Toronto is not a Canadian city as it is filled with limousine liberals, young hipsters, and immigrants who either don't care for football, or some have much exposure to the game. I'm cities where the demographics are more diverse the CFL cuts it very thin. These new populations like EPL and other stuff. It will be hard to concert folks who grew up watching EPL just like it would be a hard sell to get a CFL die hard to sit down and watch a Arsenal game.

[esquire]

I have to admit, the first 25 minutes of last night's game had me pulling out my hair, but man oh man did the Bombers find their groove after that. I guess it just took a little time to shake off all the rust. And what a crazy nailbiter finish... just a wild night.

The Bombers will likely have their hands full vs. Calgary this Friday, but the forecast is looking great and I can't wait

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by osmo

Not all markers are equal. If you only have 50k fans in a market of 2 million then you have to bank on almost each of them showing up to games. Some markets overrepresente their attention and commitment to teams versus others. It also isn't a blanket across the board.

The Raptors for example get little traction nationwide but within Southern Ontario there is probably 250k diehards who will show up and consume all things Raptors.

The Argos would do better in a GTA suburban city that could rally around them. They would draw 23-25K consistently if they played in Vaughan which is larger than some CFL markets on its own.

Teams in KW, London, etc would do well. Many mid markets that would be the equivalents of Sacramento, Cincinnati and Kansas City in the USA that would thrive with one large scale team. Obviously the Stadium issue is the biggest hurdle but the CFL does nobody favours with a non central model that can't promise a profit. In MLS you are able to get such aggressive expansion, with local influencers able to try and twist the public for stadium money, largely for the fact the MLS can st least attempt to promise a cheque each year and to be in the black if you don't spend yourself poor. CFL can't promise that. Until it does it will likely never see a league beyond 9-10 teams.

The Toronto market is strange. I keep saying Toronto is not a Canadian city as it is filled with limousine liberals, young hipsters, and immigrants who either don't care for football, or some have much exposure to the game. I'm cities where the demographics are more diverse the CFL cuts it very thin. These new populations like EPL and other stuff. It will be hard to concert folks who grew up watching EPL just like it would be a hard sell to get a CFL die hard to sit down and watch a Arsenal game.

Yes, I get all that, but you seemed to have missed the basis of my question. Toronto is so big compared to Regina/Saskatchewan, that one might think your comparison should be moot. "Toronto is not a Canadian City . . . " this applies to many Canadian cities. But regardless, your characterization only applies to a portion of the whole. Toronto has more 'typical' middle class Canadians than any other city . . . significantly more than Regina's population. So, one would think that filling a small stadium would 'happen just by the nature of the numbers.' Let's say the Lions-Argos game drew 6,000. If Toronto's population was cut down to 1.5 million, you can bet that the same crowd of 6,000 would have attended. If Toronto's population was 12million at this time, the crowd would still be 6,000. Makes no sense. Same thing happens in hockey. Across the league, stadium sizes and attendance lay within a certain range: say 15,000 to 21,000. New York draws in this range and Winnipeg draws in this range. The growth in populations over the last 30 years has not really altered this range. Cities of many millions can struggle to sell out as much as smaller cities. Sure the market is more splintered, etc., but one would again think that the numbers would overwhelm the other factors. (I am making a case to illustrate what I consider an odd phenomenon - do not pick at the numbers, just see the point behind them)

[osmo]

Originally Posted by Marshal

Yes, I get all that, but you seemed to have missed the basis of my question. Toronto is so big compared to Regina/Saskatchewan, that one might think your comparison should be moot. "Toronto is not a Canadian City . . . " this applies to many Canadian cities. But regardless, your characterization only applies to a portion of the whole. Toronto has more 'typical' middle class Canadians than any other city . . . significantly more than Regina's population. So, one would think that filling a small stadium would 'happen just by the nature of the numbers.' Let's say the Lions-Argos game drew 6,000. If Toronto's population was cut down to 1.5 million, you can bet that the same crowd of 6,000 would have attended. If Toronto's population was 12million at this time, the crowd would still be 6,000. Makes no sense. Same thing happens in hockey. Across the league, stadium sizes and attendance lay within a certain range: say 15,000 to 21,000. New York draws in this range and Winnipeg draws in this range. The growth in populations over the last 30 years has not really altered this range. Cities of many millions can struggle to sell out as much as smaller cities. Sure the market is more splintered, etc., but one would again think that the numbers would overwhelm the other factors. (I am making a case to illustrate what I consider an odd phenomenon - do not pick at the numbers, just see the point behind them)

I hear you but, it will be much easier to fill a stadium in Regina with 30K as you have more people into stuff like the CFL. In Toronto, this is just not the case. Markets can never just be measured on their size alone, Green Bay is one of the strongest NFL markets, and the METRO AREA is barely bigger than Saskatoon. LA is the 2nd largest city in the USA, and they have weak support for NFL. Your question would make the claim that stronger support for NFL should be denser in LA versus Green Bay but that is not the case. Same thing for Canada. Regina is Green Bay, and Toronto is LA.

[tomthumb2]

Another set of solid games for week 2 in the CFL. The Bombers-Riders game was awesome (felt bad for Riders kicker but always makes me happy to see Jones fuming - what a dick he is lol). And man did that stadium look great on TV! They have definitely set a new standard in Regina. Like someone said, it actually looks like there are a lot more people there than 33k. Can't wait to see the Ti-Cats there next week.

Only downer was the Argos game. It's obvious the CFL is dead as a door nail there. Time to start thinking of some alternate ideas. I've heard the CFL couldn't survive without Toronto but it survived Montreal and Ottawa folding before (Ottawa twice!). I know Toronto is bigger than those markets put together but they're gonna have to do SOMETHING. I can't see the owners wanting to keep this going when attendance gets below 10k.

[tomthumb2]

FYI (kinda neat): https://gigapixel.panoramas.com/roughriders/20170701/

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by osmo

I hear you but, it will be much easier to fill a stadium in Regina with 30K as you have more people into stuff like the CFL. In Toronto, this is just not the case. Markets can never just be measured on their size alone, Green Bay is one of the strongest NFL markets, and the METRO AREA is barely bigger than Saskatoon. LA is the 2nd largest city in the USA, and they have weak support for NFL. Your question would make the claim that stronger support for NFL should be denser in LA versus Green Bay but that is not the case. Same thing for Canada. Regina is Green Bay, and Toronto is LA.

Stop, you're not listening. I have already acknowledged what you keep saying. And I am not saying what you keep claiming I am. It just a curious phenomenon . . . let's leave it there.

note: I have family in Milwaukee and near Green Bay: the Green Bay market is Green Bay, the state of Wisconsin, and the largest proportion: Milwaukee. It's similar to the Patriots: Farnborough is not 'the' market.

[craner]

NMS looked great on TV - loved it.
If I had to nitpick my only complaint would be the translucent canopy, I don't like the taupe color. That and all the green of course.