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  #1021  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:30 PM
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Considering there are only about half a dozen users here, and half of us have him on "ignore," he is effectively shunned.
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  #1022  
Old Posted Jul 12, 2014, 8:33 PM
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Let him bloviate alone, then!
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  #1023  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2014, 9:18 PM
UnclearColt UnclearColt is offline
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http://www.sacbee.com/2014/08/03/659...e-express.html

I've always thought it was ridiculous that the light rail doesn't come out to Davis.
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  #1024  
Old Posted Aug 3, 2014, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by UnclearColt View Post
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/08/03/659...e-express.html

I've always thought it was ridiculous that the light rail doesn't come out to Davis.
$$$ big $$$

That causeway is a show stopper.
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  #1025  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 2:23 AM
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I'd rather see money invested in the cap corridor. Make it electric and faster with trains departing every 15 min.
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  #1026  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 12:17 PM
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The reason for these light rail extensions not being built is the cost. How much was the southern extension to Calvin ? Going to the airport would be well over $500 million.
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  #1027  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 5:50 PM
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The reason for these light rail extensions not being built is the cost. How much was the southern extension to Calvin ? Going to the airport would be well over $500 million.
I think European HSR was built out at like 16 million a km.

Even if a new line to SF was 30 million a mile, that would be 2.7B, plus a new tunnel and maybe a new bridge. I still think it would be money well spent.

And I don't know why the hell BART is using indian gauge. wburg, you seem to know a lot about rail. Could indian gauge be ran at HSR speeds? If not, that's really going to hurt the future of rail in NorCal. Commuter trains could share the same tracks and carry all the way to SF nonstop.
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  #1028  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 7:59 PM
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I like Rob, but some of his ideas are a little off-kilter--and he definitely has to do his homework about Transcontinental Railroad history. Plans for a transcontinental railroad started in the 1830s (it certainly wasn't Judah's idea) and detailed studies for how to build it began not long after California became part of the Union. The driving force to build it came from the federal government, who wanted a way to economically connect California to the Union--and to get troops west quickly, in case California tried to secede (the project was approved and construction started during the Civil War, so it was a wartime/military project.)

Cost per mile for high speed rail is closer to $50 million per mile. Light rail construction cost is about $10 million per mile per track, assuming no special work like bridges or elevated tract structures. (Incidentally, it's also about the same cost for a mile of highway, so there is no financial advantage to building it as BRT instead of light rail, or just adding two more highway lanes.) Building a trestle across the Causeway would be the troublesome and expensive part. Figure $300 million plus the cost of a trestle--maybe $600-700 million.

Running Capitol Corridor at 15 minute intervals isn't exactly practical given that it's already a very busy freight route, but there are already plans afoot to increase frequency of Capitol Corridor and San Joaquin trains by building a new passenger service/maintenance facility here in Sacramento. If trains were hourly or so, running late enough to allow attendance of late-night classes at UCD and still provide a reliable ride home (or ride back to Davis after an evening in downtown Sacramento at club or concert) gives you the transportation capacity, plus it is also usable by anyone else going from San Jose to Roseville or any points in between.

You get students to ride by giving them a free pass. Set up a deal between UCD and Amtrak/Caltrans Capitol Corridor that lets UCD students and faculty ride free between Sacramento and Davis (or Roseville and Davis) and you'll see a bump in student commuter activity.

Instead of spending that $700 million on a new light rail line, spend it building the proposed UCD satellite campus in the Railyards--conveniently located so students and faculty can walk over to the train station and catch the next Cap Corridor to the main campus or back to Sacramento. In this case, it's a lot easier to make the mountain come to Mohammed (or the campus to come to Sacramento) than to make the trip by light rail.
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  #1029  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2014, 11:08 PM
BillSimmons BillSimmons is offline
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A light rail line to Davis would almost certainly cost way more than $700 million. The Blue Line extension to Cosumnes River College from the Meadowview station has a price tag of over $250 million for only 4.3 miles of track! That does include a small bridge but nothing even remotely close to what would be required to take Light Rail trains over the Causeway. UC Davis to Downtown is ~15 miles of track line plus an elevated bridge across miles of protected wetlands. Even if there was money for a project like that, environmental groups would have a field day on a project like that. It's almost completely unrealistic.

Edit: actually the cost is $270 million according to the RT website, assuming it is completed on time with no cost overruns.

http://blueline2crc.com/


So basically that 4.3 mile extension to a community college costs more than what the city is contributing to the new Downtown Arena.
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  #1030  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 12:06 AM
SoCal Alan SoCal Alan is offline
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Originally Posted by BillSimmons View Post
A light rail line to Davis would almost certainly cost way more than $700 million. The Blue Line extension to Cosumnes River College from the Meadowview station has a price tag of over $250 million for only 4.3 miles of track! That does include a small bridge but nothing even remotely close to what would be required to take Light Rail trains over the Causeway. UC Davis to Downtown is ~15 miles of track line plus an elevated bridge across miles of protected wetlands. Even if there was money for a project like that, environmental groups would have a field day on a project like that. It's almost completely unrealistic.

Edit: actually the cost is $270 million according to the RT website, assuming it is completed on time with no cost overruns.

http://blueline2crc.com/


So basically that 4.3 mile extension to a community college costs more than what the city is contributing to the new Downtown Arena.
And, isn't there a possibility that the city could recoup that money back from the Arena?

ETA: made it a question instead of a statement.

Last edited by SoCal Alan; Aug 5, 2014 at 12:26 AM.
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  #1031  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 1:29 AM
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I think the northern extension to the airport is about 13 miles. The cost would be then 650 million.
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  #1032  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 7:20 AM
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I think the northern extension to the airport is about 13 miles. The cost would be then 650 million.
It would need a bridge over 99, so I think it would be more.
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  #1033  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 7:05 PM
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Speaking of light-rail, does anybody have a status update on the current Blue Line CRC extension?

As for future extensions, I wish that an extension of the Blue Line from Watt Ave. terminus to Roseville/Rocklin would be considered, with a prominent station at the Galleria and easily accessible from both I-80 and 65.

Yes, it's a low-density suburban expansion, but no matter how much we wish we could wipe all that sprawl off the map, it's not going anywhere. Might as well offer an alternative to the freeway as has been done with the Folsom extension. It could be a boon to ridership and would be politically feasible. What's more, it would create the opportunity, however unlikely, to densify and pedestrianize the employment centers in the area a la the current Tyson's Corner experiment.
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  #1034  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DenseCityPlease View Post
Speaking of light-rail, does anybody have a status update on the current Blue Line CRC extension?

As for future extensions, I wish that an extension of the Blue Line from Watt Ave. terminus to Roseville/Rocklin would be considered, with a prominent station at the Galleria and easily accessible from both I-80 and 65.

Yes, it's a low-density suburban expansion, but no matter how much we wish we could wipe all that sprawl off the map, it's not going anywhere. Might as well offer an alternative to the freeway as has been done with the Folsom extension. It could be a boon to ridership and would be politically feasible. What's more, it would create the opportunity, however unlikely, to densify and pedestrianize the employment centers in the area a la the current Tyson's Corner experiment.
I think light rail is too slow. It is standard rail gauge, so maybe upgraded trains could be used on some of the lines. Also, I really believe that implementing limited stop trains would help for further distances.
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  #1035  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2014, 7:37 PM
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Limited stop trains requires additional tracks so they can pass the local trains--otherwise you just get stuck behind the train that stops at every stop. The speed of light rail is governed more by the need to stop than physical limitations of the vehicles--they can hit 60-65 MPH going flat out. But you have to stop to let people board, and heavier/larger vehicles would take even longer to accelerate or decelerate, which makes matters worse.

Light rail to Roseville is highly unlikely--Roseville has no interest in spending money to build that line, nor does Placer County. But there are plans underway to add a third track between Sacramento and Roseville, allowing Capitol Corridor trains to run from Sacramento to Roseville, making CC a more feasible commuter option for Placer County residents (at least via park and ride from Roseville.) It would also mean a straight jump from Roseville to downtown Sacramento--vs. the line from the Roseville Galleria running through Watt/I-80, Arden/Del Paso etc. on its way to downtown Sacramento. A much shorter trip, and more comfortable too. Remember, light rail doesn't have bathrooms, while Capitol Corridor has bathrooms, AC adapters, wi-fi, and a snack bar, plus more comfortable seats and tables.
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  #1036  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2014, 10:26 PM
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Limited stop trains requires additional tracks so they can pass the local trains--otherwise you just get stuck behind the train that stops at every stop. The speed of light rail is governed more by the need to stop than physical limitations of the vehicles--they can hit 60-65 MPH going flat out. But you have to stop to let people board, and heavier/larger vehicles would take even longer to accelerate or decelerate, which makes matters worse.

Light rail to Roseville is highly unlikely--Roseville has no interest in spending money to build that line, nor does Placer County. But there are plans underway to add a third track between Sacramento and Roseville, allowing Capitol Corridor trains to run from Sacramento to Roseville, making CC a more feasible commuter option for Placer County residents (at least via park and ride from Roseville.) It would also mean a straight jump from Roseville to downtown Sacramento--vs. the line from the Roseville Galleria running through Watt/I-80, Arden/Del Paso etc. on its way to downtown Sacramento. A much shorter trip, and more comfortable too. Remember, light rail doesn't have bathrooms, while Capitol Corridor has bathrooms, AC adapters, wi-fi, and a snack bar, plus more comfortable seats and tables.
Yes there would have to be redundant track in some areas. In other countries, they have designated stations that are on redundant tracks where the local trains can wait a couple extra minutes while the express makes its pass. BART gets up to 80MPH, but I think it would be huge just not have to hit every single stop. I think ridership would increase further away in areas such as Folsom.

But for Rocklin/Roseville the CC would be the way to commute, especially to Downtown.
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  #1037  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 12:57 AM
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The Gold Line was designed with passing tracks to allow limited stop express trains but they were eliminated to save money. And they do it that way in this country too, just not on RT...yet.
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  #1038  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by BillSimmons View Post
A light rail line to Davis would almost certainly cost way more than $700 million. The Blue Line extension to Cosumnes River College from the Meadowview station has a price tag of over $250 million for only 4.3 miles of track! That does include a small bridge but nothing even remotely close to what would be required to take Light Rail trains over the Causeway. UC Davis to Downtown is ~15 miles of track line plus an elevated bridge across miles of protected wetlands. Even if there was money for a project like that, environmental groups would have a field day on a project like that. It's almost completely unrealistic.

Edit: actually the cost is $270 million according to the RT website, assuming it is completed on time with no cost overruns.

http://blueline2crc.com/


So basically that 4.3 mile extension to a community college costs more than what the city is contributing to the new Downtown Arena.

I'm not sure what the cost would be but there are other alternatives to overhead electric light rail that RT utilizes. The line between Davis and Sacramento could utilize diesel light rail. This is something Folsom once looked at before the Gold line extension.
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  #1039  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 2:40 AM
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The big expense would be the trestle and the track (and the right of way), not the electric overhead, so there isn't much cost savings using DLR. Union Pacific would not be willing to allow DLR on their existing line between Sacramento and Davis.
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  #1040  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 6:41 AM
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The big expense would be the trestle and the track (and the right of way), not the electric overhead, so there isn't much cost savings using DLR. Union Pacific would not be willing to allow DLR on their existing line between Sacramento and Davis.
I wouldn't put light rail out to Davis. What we need is a decent right of way from Sac to SF then we can run trains at 15 min intervals to SF. I-80 is getting worse everyday

At the very least, we can add more track in areas where we need it until funding is there. For the Rocklin -> Sac track, I hope they put something in the contract that would allow the Capitol Corridor Joint Powers Authority exclusive right in the future so yet another track doesn't have to be laid.
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