The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Please broaden your comparisons.

New Brunswickers are certainly not limited to municipalities within this province in which to live; therefore, it stands to reason that the impressions we hold of our 'cities' should be, at least, equally as broad.

From a national perspective, NB's cities are akin to what you'd find in the suburbs of cities in Quebec, Ontario, Alberta, and British Columbia.

Internationally, NB would not be considered as having any actual cities, regardless of the labels we apply. A population of 150,000 isn't a metropolis. So please, allow us to evaluate our strengths and weaknesses on more than just mere regional comparisons, because we don't want to limit our thinking for what's possible.

Otherwise, change will never occur, unless the economy becomes so poor that the federal government needs to step in (which is seeming more likely).

If Saint John was such a 'natural' place for investment, we would not be having this conversation.

All I am saying is you can not compare the urbanity of Fredericton or Moncton to that of Saint John. You are making too many assumptions my friend. I have worked in the tourism industry in Uptown Saint John and the comments from tourists, namely those off the ships, tell a different story—and those people are from New York City and Boston... over the course of my time working I spoke to thousands of tourists. They spoke of the architecture, the art, the people and the cityscape itself.

What you get in terms of cultural, historic importance to the region and abroad, and urbanity in F'ton and M'ton pales in comparison to that of Saint John.

Unfortunately for a city like M'ton, who has only location and provincial tax dollars driving the economy, the urbanity of Saint John or even Halifax can not be recreated for a city such as M'ton.

You can make the comparison to Western and Central Canadian suburbs to M'ton but I challenge you to find any suburb that can be compared to the City of Saint John.

M'ton has grown solely in the last 50 years, thus has grown like many suburbs have. Saint John has developed over literally hundreds of years, before modern suburbs even existed.

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Allow me to objectify this for you:
- Numerous forms of public transit
- Walkable distances between residential clusters and sources of jobs (often established via mixed-use residential/commercial urban developments)
- Downtown malls
- Parks
- Versatile market of townhouses, condos, apartments, and single-family dwellings inside the city core
- Museums, theatres, and other forms of downtown entertainment
- Schools, hospitals, and other forms of downtown public services
- Diversity of industries and available jobs
- etc...

And on this so called objectifying of city facts lol Saint John has every single thing on your little list. Not sure how much time you have spent in the city...
Uptown Saint John has:
St. Joseph's Hospital
Brunswick square mall
market square mall
harbour station arena
canada games aquatic centre
king square park
St. Malachys Memorial High School
Atlantica School of the Arts
Saint John High School
queen square park
NB museum
Numerous art galleries of local artists
the SJ City market (trumps any nb market)
and many more institutions

PLUS

There have been proposals to bring back street cars and harbour ferry systems
But this is a short list. cdnguys provided a better insight

Saint John is like many major cities. If you live in the downtown you can conduct all your daily business and activities there. If you live in the burbs, you have to drive. Uptown has some of the nicest homes, lofts, apartments or condos you will find in Atlantic Canada. IE Germain st. brownstones and the Fundy Quay development

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

If you live in Saint John, you most likely require a vehicle in order to function within the municipality. In 'major' urban centres car ownership is not required because of the established density and public transit.

Are there any cities the same size as Saint John that provide a major urban centre with public transit and density? Looking at CMAs that are the same relative size as Saint John (or larger), I would find it hard to believe that Brantford, Thunder Bay, Guelph, Peterborough, Trois-Rivieres, or even Saguenay would meet them more than Saint John does.

With Saint John being #31 in terms of CMA population in Canada, I think you would have to go up to maybe St. John's (#20), Sherbrooke (#19), or Regina (#18) until you start getting into cities with dense cores and sufficient public transportation that would relegate the need of car ownership.

I think the difficulty here is expecting medium-and-small sized cities to provide the services of a large city, and that the 'major' urban centres that you speak of easily have 250/300K+ populations.

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

This is just not the case - you do not require a car to function here.
- there are numerous forms of transportation, including bike lanes, community carpool program "share your ride", "Parcobus" lot to share your ride, Harbour Passage connecting uptown, north end and west side and an excellent bus system IMO. Even the furthest reaches of the city have a 40' bus running to them, including Red Head, Martinon and Loch Lomand. We even have ComEx bus service to Grand Bay-Westfield, Kennececasis Valley and Hampton. The last two are so popular they run large accordion buses. Some runs go to east side shopping district serving retail workers from KV and there is seamless transfer to regional hospital and university. Saint John is the leader in NB when it comes to public transportation. Just look at the park and ride lots. Plus commuting workers have WiFi
- as for walkable distances to work - every single employment cluster has a residential neighborhood nearby should people choose to work and live nearby. In fact ALL of the dense areas of Saint John are mixed use residential and employers. Drury Cove is the first in NB I believe that is a high end residential / office park.
- Saint John has 3 downtown malls - Brunswick, Market and Prince Edward Squares.
- as for versatile housing in core you can check all the boxes on your list
- as for Parks and green spaces the city has a lot. Within the core itself is Rockwood Park, Public Gardens, Kings and Queens Sq, Loyalist burial ground, Rainbow park for kids, Fort Howe, Saint Andrew's Green, York Point, Garden Street Park, Chowen Field, Three Sisters Green, Barrack Green Field, Tin Can Beach, Fort Latour
- NB Museum is located right uptown on waterfront and across Harbour passage on Douglas ave. imperial theatre on Kings Sq is billed as the most beautiful in Canada by the arts community. Half a block away is the Saint John theatre company in a newly renovated historic property. Saint John uptown has great nightlife, culture and art galleries plus top notch restaurants in renovated historic buildings.
- city core has St Joseph's hospital, medical clinics, teen sexual health / resource centre, 2 of the major high schools and UNBSJ buildings. Provincial, federal and local services all available in core. The library is located uptown also, with branches east and west.
- as for diversity of jobs, we are actually very diverse. We are actually a white-collar city by number of jobs considered blue/white. Saint John became diverse with the IT sector and health sciences sector to name just a couple. Saint John is well positioned for growth due to the availability of cheap industrial energy, rail connections, ice free port and available tradespeople and engineers.

As for signature city scape, I did not say "skyline". And yes city scape does bring people to city. Just ask owner of Urban deli - she moved from Fredericton to open it when she saw cityscape. Same with new owner of Gothic Arches and the owner of the wedding cake building who moved from Montreal to SJ when he discovered it. A CEO on a cruise was taken by the cityscape he opened a business here

I went 7 years without a car and never gave it a second thought. Having said all that, I politely say you do not know Saint John. Would love to take you on a tour!! This is a good starting point:
http://youtu.be/UC7irNxxs5I

RyeJay has no clue lol

[cdnguys]

LOL great discussion string - reminded me what an awesome city we live in and sometimes we forget that when we get caught up in councils / budgets

[Peter_johnns]

Just on an end note, spacing atlantic named uptown saint john the second most dense urban area in atlantic canada. it mentioned of 2 halifax areas and downtown st john's. So our uptown is far more dense than that of st johns. fton and mton didnt make the list lol

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

And on this so called objectifying of city facts lol Saint John has every single thing on your little list. Not sure how much time you have spent in the city...
Uptown Saint John has:
St. Joseph's Hospital
Brunswick square mall
market square mall
harbour station arena
canada games aquatic centre
king square park
St. Malachys Memorial High School
Atlantica School of the Arts
Saint John High School
queen square park
NB museum
Numerous art galleries of local artists
the SJ City market (trumps any nb market)
and many more institutions

PLUS

There have been proposals to bring back street cars and harbour ferry systems
But this is a short list. cdnguys provided a better insight

Saint John is like many major cities. If you live in the downtown you can conduct all your daily business and activities there. If you live in the burbs, you have to drive. Uptown has some of the nicest homes, lofts, apartments or condos you will find in Atlantic Canada. IE Germain st. brownstones and the Fundy Quay development

For fun, 1904 streetcar route


http://www.saintjohn.nbcc.nb.ca/Heri...eteRebuild.htm

[nwalbert]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Allow me to objectify this for you:
- Numerous forms of public transit
- Walkable distances between residential clusters and sources of jobs (often established via mixed-use residential/commercial urban developments)
- Downtown malls
- Parks
- Versatile market of townhouses, condos, apartments, and single-family dwellings inside the city core
- Museums, theatres, and other forms of downtown entertainment
- Schools, hospitals, and other forms of downtown public services
- Diversity of industries and available jobs
- etc...

Wow! This is one of the most uneducated posts I have seen in a long time.

Uptown Saint John features all of these things in spades. As others have metioned Saint John is the only downtown core in the entire province and we should be very proud of what we have.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by nwalbert

Wow! This is one of the most uneducated posts I have seen in a long time.

Uptown Saint John features all of these things in spades. As others have metioned Saint John is the only downtown core in the entire province and we should be very proud of what we have.

I agree, compared to Moncton and Fredericton, and other cities in NB, Saint John has a 'downtown', particularly a historic downtown of a substantially bigger city. Also maybe it's just the urbanist snob in me, but extensive transit is only a concern of those who live in the burbs If you live in Uptown and area you'd just walk everywhere.

[jeddy1989]

Hey guys

Just as a curious unlooker, What do you concider an uptown?
I think St. John's is layed out very differently (well from anywhere haha)
What is the difference in your uptown and downtown?
is downtown more like the historic centre and the uptown is the functioning (what we would concider) downtown?


note: I'm not weighin in on any argument, I'm just curious
The reason I ask is because in St. John's we do not have an area of the city that we refer to as uptown

[SignalHillHiker]

Great Saint John video above. Your city has the coolest logo.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

Hey guys

Just as a curious unlooker, What do you concider an uptown?
I think St. John's is layed out very differently (well from anywhere haha)
What is the difference in your uptown and downtown?
is downtown more like the historic centre and the uptown is the functioning (what we would concider) downtown?


note: I'm not weighin in on any argument, I'm just curious
The reason I ask is because in St. John's we do not have an area of the city that we refer to as uptown

What Saint John calls uptown is what other cities would call downtown.

Basically, uptown Saint John comprises about everything on this peninsula, from the highway southward--excepting the extreme southern tip of it, which is known as the 'South End'.

I'm not sure anyone knows exactly why Saint John uses 'uptown' instead of 'downtown'. One popular conjecture is that the origins lie in the city's seaport roots; because the uptown peninsula is a very steep hill, sailors coming from the port would then go 'uptown', or literally uphill, from the quay to their business and lodgings.

[DizzyEdge]

Is the south end south of Broad street, or does it include more than that?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

Is the south end south of Broad street, or does it include more than that?

The south end is considered Duke Street south to the Vulcan Street. The rest of the peninsula is considered central. Uptown has no technical boundaries. Kings square down to harbour and Trinity Royal is considered uptown, although people living on King Street East, Princess, Orange and Leinster among a few would consider themselves living uptown. Some in the south end would consider themselves uptown as would some living in Waterloo Village.

[CdnEh]

Lol. I don't think RyeJay has ever actually been to Saint John.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

The south end is considered Duke Street south to the Vulcan Street. The rest of the peninsula is considered central. Uptown has no technical boundaries. Kings square down to harbour and Trinity Royal is considered uptown, although people living on King Street East, Princess, Orange and Leinster among a few would consider themselves living uptown. Some in the south end would consider themselves uptown as would some living in Waterloo Village.

Interesting, Duke Street seems so arbitrary as compared to the built form, but perhaps it originally was meaningful.
It would be interesting to see a zoning map which would likely lay out practical divisions, if not formal.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Ire Narissis

I'm not sure anyone knows exactly why Saint John uses 'uptown' instead of 'downtown'. One popular conjecture is that the origins lie in the city's seaport roots; because the uptown peninsula is a very steep hill, sailors coming from the port would then go 'uptown', or literally uphill, from the quay to their business and lodgings.

This is what I have heard as well. Essentially, people leaving ships in the harbour would have to walk uphill to get anywhere, whether it be banks, hotels, or whatever. Thus Uptown.

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

Your city has the coolest logo.

I agree. I really like our logo.

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

It would be interesting to see a zoning map which would likely lay out practical divisions, if not formal.

Roughly five minutes in Paint:

Red = Uptown
Yellow = South End
Blue = Waterloo Village

[DizzyEdge]

Cool that's very helpful

[kwajo]

I like the lines on the map, the only thing I might even consider changing is including a bit of Orange Street, maybe up to Wentworth (the topography agrees with this being "up").

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kwajo

I like the lines on the map, the only thing I might even consider changing is including a bit of Orange Street, maybe up to Wentworth (the topography agrees with this being "up").

That's true. There are some tremendously nice buildings on Orange between Wentworth and Camarthen.






All photos from my Flickr, taken in February 2012.