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Originally Posted by Groundhog
He let the team get bad enough to stumble into Iverson. Regardless, he never cared about basketball and this is not relevant to the discussion at hand.
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It's pretty debatable, but from the 80's to today, the NBA is a much more lucrative and marketable sport than the NHL and basketball is the second most popular sport only behind soccer globally.
The NHL basically imploded back during the 1994 strike, the relocation of teams to the Sunbelt, the dead puck era, and the 2005 strike. We haven't really seen a true dynasty since Edmonton, even though DET, NJ, and PIT can be technically considered dynasties since those teams did win within a 10-year frame. But the NHL these days have a tough marketable image, especially for old time fans.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars. You're missing the point. This is a city. The transit is the priority and will reduce the reliance on cars.
This bolded point is why they will not build in the stadium complex. If the financials aren't there, it's not going to happen. everything else is moot. Also more talk about cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars cars.
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This post is very immature immature immature if you ask me. Do you even know the real reason why the Sports Complex was built in the first place. It has ties going back to to the 1926 Sesquicentennial Exposition, with JFK Stadium (formerly Philadelphia Municipal Stadium).
Before the modern Sports Complex was planned, we all know that the Eagles played at Franklin Field, the Phillies played at Shibe Park, and the Sixers played at the old Civic Center. The old NHL team, the Quakers played at 46th and Market called the Philadelphia Arena.
In a "perfect" world, Shibe Park, Franklin Field, the Civic Center, and the Philadelphia Arena would all be directly inside the arena but we all know that those places today would have a tough time selling due to a lack of skyboxes, low capacity, and a lack of parking. That's the world we live in today.
Three Rivers Stadium in Pittsburgh, Lakefront Stadium in Cleveland, Riverfront Stadium in Cincinnati, the old Busch Stadium in St Louis, and lets not forget Giants Stadium and Sullivan Stadium in New England in the late 60's were built because there was enough land that was cheap plus there was nearby interstates that could be utilized for those spectators going to and from these venues. The Meadowlands and Foxborough also offer commuter rail service and Philadelphia has similar with the BSL and can even offer regional rail service at Broad and Terminal if SEPTA worked with CSX to use the 26th St viaduct.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
I'm pro transit expansion and increased demand increased the likelihood of improvements! Again, it's the financials. Also, if you think the transit is good enough at the stadiums now with just the BSL (all south bound and funneling all other transit lines), then it is substantially better with the MFL (cars coming from the east AND west), regional rails, and trolleys feeding directly to the arena. Currently the BSL has to take all the traffic from these lines for the last leg of the journey, that concentration on one transit option is no longer needed here. Are you getting this? Do you need it sketched out?
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I believe Pattison Station is sufficient enough because it's a terminal (even though I personally believe the BSL can be extended as far as the Navy Yard and even Chester, which hasn't happened thanks to SEPTA), the wide platforms, and the accessibility and ease of going to and from Pattison, with elevators and escalators. Pattison isn't perfect, and the BSL should've been a four track line from Pattison going all the way to Jenkintown-Wyncote, IMHO, but Pattison Station as we know it does a better job of handling spectators, than let's say 8th and 11th St stations.
There's no escalators, the pedestrian tunnels and passageways are too much of a labyrinth as well as they're dirty, there's no free crossover between the eastbound and westbound platforms, and the platforms are relatively narrow in comparison to Pattison, which was designed to handle a lot of spectators going to and from the Sports Complex.
Even though I'm a big mass transit guy (not a SEPTA fan), I still miss the point of Market East Station being a even bigger hub due to the new arena proposed when it's essentially already a hub. It was a much better regional rail hub when SEPTA had the alphanumeric designations (R2, R6, R8, etc.), but SEPTA had truncated the lines to either just end at either 30th St or Temple for whatever reason.
And I'm also not convinced that building the Center City arena will all of a sudden make SEPTA this model of mass transit when it's the polar opposite
meaning it's the worst mass transit system in the country, IMHO! SEPTA hasn't even restored and renovated the old Bethlehem branch to Allentown and Easton, as well as the Reading & Lancaster services, and we don't even have stub services to West Chester, Oxford, and Newtown.
I've given up on SEPTA several years back because when you have Sunbelt cities like Miami, Dallas-Fort Worth, and LA expanding their commuter rail and mass transit systems, and Philadelphia, which is an older, more established city, with much more rail infrastructure than those aforementioned cities, you'd expect a lot more rail services from SEPTA (and NJ Transit) than those cities, but SEPTA has yet to expand a subway, trolley, or commuter rail line while Miami, Dallas, and LA have expanded theirs.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Literally nobody has said this. Stop it with the strawman arguments. This is about revitalizing one of the most highly visible commercial corridors in the city and replacing a defunct mall with an engaging asset. Could that impact our image? Maybe? However that is not the point. The point is it is the best possible (read: actually proposed and not theoretical) option to fix Market East. Nobody has said anything about this turning us into an "elite city", whatever that means.
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I'm really getting tired of hearing that in order for Philadelphia to be this or that, we need to attract Amazon, we need to build this o that, we need to get this or that, we need to have this or that store in order to be amongst the prime American cities, and hearing that one arena shoehorned at 10th and Market will revitalize Center City, and eventually all of Philadelphia is pure bunk, if you ask me.
When Amazon was searching for a second HQ location, a lot of Philly pols were talking about how attracting Amazon will all of a sudden revitalize Philadelphia. No other city talks how a company or a structure will revitalize it's city more than Philadelphia and you don't hear other cities talking like that either because they have their economies intact, not even Chicago, with it's problems!
The revitalization should've started once Liberty Place was first built back in 1987. Once we had our skyline, and the Comcast Center was erected, there should've been much more emphasis on not just retaining companies that we already had here, but incubating and attracting firms and corporations that could help Philadelphia indirectly through revenues long term.
We lost a lot of big businesses such as Sunoco, CIGNA, Lincoln Financial, and Santander to either the suburbs or to other cities. Also, lowering the wage tax as well as other business taxes would've helped revitalize the city, as well as repairing the declining housing stock, improving the school system, Maintaining our parks and waterways, and probably, the most important, cleaning our streets.
Even if we did build the Center City arena, crime, poverty, miseducation, drugs, and homelessness aren't going to just disappear just because of an arena.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Irrelevant since there is no public money involved here and possibly wrong (or soon to be wrong) - Houston is gunning for our belt!
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Where's the link? Plus, there's a lot of Fortune 500 companies based out of Houston, meaning there's a lot of wealth, albeit, not in the same line as Philadelphia. We couldn't even retain Sunoco, our only petroleum company, which was lost to Dallas.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Plenty of cities have does this who are not NYC. We're not building MSG, we're not building TD Bank, we're talking about a peer, yes, but it will be it's own thing that's learned from what's been built before and been shown to work, and it will be build for PHILLY.
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The peer that we have is called the Wells Fargo Center. And if Harris wanted to build an even more modern stadium, all that could've been done at the sports complex.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
You already admitted the financials don't work as well at the stadium. I'm sad they're leaving South Philly too, but their rationale is logical, not spiteful and will be a positive overall. Change is hard, but it is also constant, so stop complaining about something that is financially illogical (staying in the complex) and look at what is feasible (Market St, Camden!?, Penns Landing, 30th Street, etc). This move away from the WFC was inevitable, if you think there is a better option that makes sense, happy to hear about it, but I'm happy with this because it could have been worse, this is a winner. This isn't the Colts leaving Baltimore.
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My assumptions is that you don't care about the well being, the communities, and the diversity of Philadelphia. If building a basketball arena in Center City just because you want a shorter commute from West Philadelphia is your wish, at the expense of people who want to preserve an ethnic enclave, I'm already convinced that your character is so self-centered that you could give a damn about other people and their beliefs and culture.
If destroying an enclave like Chinatown or even Midtown Village is the way to progress and revitalization, then I say just build the arena. I also say that losing whatever ethnic enclave at the expense of a millionaire and his pet project means that Philadelphia has lost it's soul as a city and doesn't regard it's communities in any way.
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
This is part of what all the community back and forth is about. He better!
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Are you 100% sure that Harris will pay for the rail, electrical, traffic, and water and sewage improvements? I don't even recall Harris saying anything about those but just buying up the land and building the arena and it doesn't defend your case!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
That sounds like much bigger issue when driving and driving from OUTSIDE the city. So more cars, cars, cars, cars, cars. If you're taking public transit this is rarely ever an issue - especially when you don't need to make transfers. That is really where I've found delays pile up getting to the stadium complex (or anywhere). The stadium complex requires transfers for anyone not on the BSL, as I did when I use to take the R7 or R6 from Chestnut Hill or Manayunk and now that I take the 34 from West Philly. The new proposal does not. That is why it is superior. You will no longer need to transfer on public transit or a car with a silly 2 hour lead time to get to a 6ers game once this is built. Time is the most valuable resource on the planet. I suggest you celebrate getting a bit more back with this move.
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Did you forget that the real world doesn't revolve around just you. Not everybody has the privilege of living next to a stadium, arena, or sporting venue! I always wanted to see the Giants play football, but as a youth in Brooklyn, the Giants play in the Meadowlands, and in order to go to the Meadowlands, there was two ways: either by car, by bus via the Port Authority, or by subway train to the commuter rail to the Meadowlands.
For such a trip, that meant it would take up to 45 min to Penn Station from Brooklyn, depending on how fast the subway train is, to the Meadowlands Shuttle, who operates about 30 min to Metlife, or travel up to 42nd St and take the bus to the Meadowlands for almost an hour, making the trip about 2 hours, excluding subway delays, gridlock, and accidents either on the railway or the roadways, and not to mention the tens of thousands of spectators waiting for over an hour just to be first in the gate and in their seats, which is why I suggested to arrive 1-2 hours before game time since 30 min is unrealistic to think you'll make it from your home to your assigned seat, when you have people who'll wait hours just to be first in line!
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Originally Posted by Groundhog
Also, just FYI, I was not tardy with my son, we had a transfer issue, yes, but we actually still JUST made it into CBP (not into our seats) for the first pitch though it involved a lot more running than I'd hoped for. Also, if we had to arrive TWO hours early for a game, I wouldn't ever be able to take my son to one. What a sad world that would be.
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Once again, you plan early for these special events. Just because you left 30 min from home before game time doesn't assure you that you'll make it to the gate! That's on you (and SEPTA)!
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