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  #81  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
Wow you're really grasping at straws here. Did I say there was a large enough draw that it would spike commercial flight activity on flights that don't exist? Are you actually comparing Coachella and PSP stats? An isolated desert town with a small airport and an enormous weekend festival. Your arguments have gone from bizarre to completely irrational. It's clear your distain for Ottawa is clouding your judgement here. I'm sorry if your time in this city hasn't treated you well, making you miserable and resentful towards it. Again, I highly suggest getting out and actually experiencing this great city or moving on. You rhetoric has become something of a broken record.
You're being very unfair to Truenorth. I've been exchanging and arguing with him for years and he truly does care for Ottawa, but he doesn't see it with rose-coloured glasses.

He wants it to be the best it can be.
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  #82  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by OTSkyline View Post
Even outside of international travellers, we should be doing more to get tourism dollars from Toronto & Montreal residents looking for a weekend getaway. Let's be real, Ottawa is not some city tucked away in the forest 10 hours away, it's very much in line with the Windsor-QC corridor and a short 2hrs drive from Montreal and 4hrs from Toronto.
.
In my experience a lot of less geographically-inclined Montrealers think that because Ottawa is in Ontario it's closer to Toronto than it actually is. That puts Ottawa in the 4-5 hour drive mindspace and this is a barrier to day trips - which are actually very easy.

Then if you consider than in the 5-ish hour range from Montreal, in addition to Toronto, you also have NYC and Boston (and of course Quebec City which is just over 2 hours away, and which is more well-known), it's not surprising that an Ottawa "somewhere near Toronto's distance" isn't a top destination for more of them.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 2:04 PM
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I don't know, Truenorth00's comments might have been on the extreme side, but I don't totally disagree with him.

Ottawa is a nice city to live in but it's not that great as a tourist destination and it shows by the amount of tourists either skipping the capital altogether or staying overnight between their Toronto & Montreal visits.

It may be "one of the most visited cities in Canada" but it's probably 5th or 6th, might even be after Niagara Falls and Quebec City, and arguably, as the capital of the country, we should be much more up there.

I like Ottawa and live here, but every time I travel (even within Canada sometimes), I'm unfortunately reminded that Ottawa doesn't have that much cache as a MUST SEE destination. The parliament buildings & canal are cute and we have lots of museums, but that's about it.
I am fan of capital cities, and as such when I travel I gravitate to countries' capitals be they a country's metropolis like London, Paris or Tokyo, or secondary cities like Den Haag, Canberra, Bern, Brasilia, Wellington (or even Bonn back in the day).

Though it's true that this probably won't be the case for most travellers, especially when you have an Amsterdam-style city like Montreal or a Zurich-style city like Toronto nearby...
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  #84  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 2:46 PM
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There hasn't been any loosening of height limits. The protected view planes have been around since 1971. The city is growing up outside of those planes.
Point taken
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  #85  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 2:55 PM
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Originally Posted by YOWhopeful View Post
So well put. You hit the nail on the head.
Please be our next mayor. No joke
As my handle indicates, I'm way too much of a bohemian to stay in place more than a few months to build a political career. Besides, I'm a formidable introvert and a master at solitude... talking more than 5 minutes exhausts me. Furthermore, dealing with the NCC's slap-in-your-face supremacy alone must be a festival of headaches. Being mayor of Ottawa must be akin to running a marathon with shackles. But I appreciate the compliment.

Last edited by bikegypsy; Jul 27, 2022 at 3:29 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
First, the original discussion in the airport thread started with discussion on how to attract International tourists here, to improve international sure connectivity. Not domestic tourism.

Next, if what you suggest is true and it's not just ex-Ottawa residents from Toronto and Montreal driving up for Canada Day, then the flight demand at YOW doesn't seem to reflect it.



Fair enough. It could be a high demand location. I still find the collection plain. I think acottawa captured what I feel best, when he called it a bunch of Heritage Minutes. But the location and architecture is decent. I wish they would at least strike deals with places like the Museum of Anthropology to rotate pieces through.

Ottawa does get skipped over as YOWhopeful pointed out. For example, I remember seeing the Terracotta Warriors at the ROM in Toronto. The other museums the collection visited? Royal BC Museum, Glenbow Museum and the Musée des beaux-arts.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainmen...ities-1.931242

Why do you think that is? It's not like Calgary is much larger than Ottawa.
To be fair, these exhibits never go everywhere. There have been tons of important art shows that came to Ottawa and didn't go to Toronto or Montreal. One example is the late 90s massive Picasso retrospective. There were only 2 North American cities: NYC and Ottawa.

Furthermore, these shows are ultra complex to organize and need tons of planning and there is a multitude of factors to consider. Space availability plays a huge role. The transportation alone must be a total nightmare. Calgary and Victoria probably had the luxury of last minute (1-2 years ahead) availability, which is not an option in Ottawa, at least not at the National Gallery. City size has some importance, but regional pull even more. The fact that Victoria was supposed to get it instead of Vancouver demonstrates my point. I say "supposed" as the chinese government pulled the show early. Victoria and Calgary never got to host this exhibit. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts...rticle1214224/

Last edited by bikegypsy; Jul 27, 2022 at 4:15 PM.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 4:33 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoNerd View Post
Wow you're really grasping at straws here. Did I say there was a large enough draw that it would spike commercial flight activity on flights that don't exist? Are you actually comparing Coachella and PSP stats? An isolated desert town with a small airport and an enormous weekend festival. Your arguments have gone from bizarre to completely irrational. It's clear your distain for Ottawa is clouding your judgement here. I'm sorry if your time in this city hasn't treated you well, making you miserable and resentful towards it. Again, I highly suggest getting out and actually experiencing this great city or moving on. You rhetoric has become something of a broken record.
So you're saying there is no issues attracting tourists at all. And that Ottawa gets all the international service it needs.

Cool. We can shut down this thread.
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  #88  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 4:36 PM
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The fact that this thread devolved into a museum measuring contest says everything we need to know about why Ottawa isn't a sexy city for tourists.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 4:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
The fact that this thread devolved into a museum measuring contest says everything we need to know about why Ottawa isn't a sexy city for tourists.
Museums just happened to come up because it is a touristy thing to do and Ottawa happens to be vastly superior to any other city in Canada in that regard. Want to talk about festivals & events? Winterlude, Bluesfest, Escapade, Tulip festival, Canada Day, etc...Like them or not, those are some of the biggest and best in their respective genres. Canadiana/history, Ottawa is top of the class. In the arts and culture respect Ottawa is unarguably rich. Restaurants/shopping scene is great. Natural beauty/scenery, again Ottawa ranks very high.

I mean someone calling Ottawa out for no longer having a downtown core movie theatre as a tourism draw is absurd. I've never once been on vacation and thought to myself, "maybe I'll go see Top Gun Maverick today". There is no question Ottawa can improve. But implying that the Nation's Capital is not worth visiting and it's only redeeming quality is Gat Park is just so beyond idiotic.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:04 PM
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But implying that the Nation's Capital is not worth visiting and it's only redeeming quality is Gat Park is just so beyond idiotic.
The implication isn't that Ottawa isn't worth visiting - it's whether it's worth visiting more than its nearby city cousins in Montreal and Toronto. You say Winterlude and I say Canada Exhibition, you say Bluesfest and I say F1 in Montreal, you say Escapade and I say OVO, you say Tulip Festival and I say Pride, you say Canada Day and I say TIFF. If Ottawa can find its niche in things like Winterlude then absolutely run with it, but even then it's facing competition in the form of Carnaval in Quebec.

Like I said previously, people don't primarily travel for museums. There's only a handful of museums that people travel internationally for, like the Louvre or MOMA, and that's basically it. People don't travel to Toronto exclusively to visit the ROM, and people don't travel to London exclusively to visit the National Portrait Gallery. They're great supplementary sidequests on otherwise busy vacations but they're not the primary reason for travelling. I don't think very many people are travelling to Ottawa to peer at Maman outside the Art Gallery, you know? Hell, DC has the Smithsonian museums, and those are proper museums, and i'd still wager that more people visit the city for the White House or Capitol or Lincoln Memorial.

You can say that Ottawa's restaurant and shopping scene is great, but again once you compare it to nearby cities it's...not? Toronto is arguably one of the best food cities in the world, if not in the Western hemisphere, and Montreal is a diverse destination for shopping of all different kinds. Ottawa can't support a Holt Renfrew.

I'm not trying to be a downer on Ottawa or anything because it's a great city for the specific kind of people it attracts. This thread devolving into talk about museums and their focus simply highlights the kind of people that Ottawa attracts in general - people who fit neatly into government positions, bureaucratic, socially passive. All government cities are like this. Brasilia isn't the destination to visit in Brazil. Canberra isn't the destination to visit in Australia. Ottawa is no different.

The question shouldn't be 'what does Ottawa do well?', it should be 'What does Ottawa do better than anywhere else?', in particular Toronto and Montreal.

--

It's a sidebar, but recently my partner was in the Middle East and spent about a month travelling around, primarily in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Both of these countries are pushing their tourism industries hard to varying results. What you'll find in places like Qatar and the Arab Emirates is that local culture is...very sparse. The idea of culture in these places is simply to take the best things from other places and plant them into the Middle East. There's a famous restaurant in New York? Now it's in Dubai. There's a famous store in London? Now there's one in Qatar. It's the idea that culture can be bought and supplied and moved from one place to another as if it's equivalent. You can see this in, like, Las Vegas building an Eiffel Tower or something. It's not exactly the same thing no matter how similar it may be.

I bring this up because I see this sort of attitude at times in Ottawa. Maybe we should have a waterpark because they're popular elsewhere. Maybe we should have an aquarium because they're popular elsewhere. That's not a solution, you're merely replicating other places. What makes your city and region unique? That's what you build upon. Build that character and uniqueness and people will show up for it eventually.

I bring this up often to people in the Maritimes when they get excited about new franchise chains opening up. It's not unique or exciting or really noteworthy. Just supplanting local culture with franchise culture from elsewhere. Yawn.

Last edited by JHikka; Jul 27, 2022 at 5:19 PM.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:06 PM
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Nobody said the capital is not worth visiting. What was said is that it's not a sensible start point for any vacation to Canada or worth dedicating substantial time visiting. At best it's something you visit on the way between Toronto and Montreal. And this is literally the case for most tour companies.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:21 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
The implication isn't that Ottawa isn't worth visiting - it's whether it's worth visiting more than its nearby city cousins in Montreal and Toronto. You say Winterlude and I say Canada Exhibition, you say Bluesfest and I say F1 in Montreal, you say Escapade and I say OVO, you say Tulip Festival and I say Pride, you say Canada Day and I say TIFF. If Ottawa can find its niche in things like Winterlude then absolutely run with it, but even then it's facing competition in the form of Carnaval in Quebec.

Like I said previously, people don't primarily travel for museums. There's only a handful of museums that people travel internationally for, like the Louvre or MOMA, and that's basically it. People don't travel to Toronto exclusively to visit the ROM, and people don't travel to London exclusively to visit the National Portrait Gallery. They're great supplementary sidequests on otherwise busy vacations but they're not the primary reason for travelling. I don't think very many people are travelling to Ottawa to peer at Maman outside the Art Gallery, you know? Hell, DC has the Smithsonian museums, and those are proper museums, and i'd still wager that more people visit the city for the White House or Capitol or Lincoln Memorial.

You can say that Ottawa's restaurant and shopping scene is great, but again once you compare it to nearby cities it's...not? Toronto is arguably one of the best food cities in the world, if not in the Western hemisphere, and Montreal is a diverse destination for shopping of all different kinds. Ottawa can't support a Holt Renfrew.

I'm not trying to be a downer on Ottawa or anything because it's a great city for the specific kind of people it attracts. This thread devolving into talk about museums and their focus simply highlights the kind of people that Ottawa attracts in general - people who fit neatly into government positions, bureaucratic, socially passive. All government cities are like this. Brasilia isn't the destination to visit in Brazil. Canberra isn't the destination to visit in Australia. Ottawa is no different.

The question shouldn't be 'what does Ottawa do well?', it should be 'What does Ottawa do better than anywhere else?', in particular Toronto and Montreal.
If you honestly believe Toronto is one of the best food cities in the world, and that Ottawa is even remotely comparable to Brasilia or Canberra then you've lost all credibility whatsoever and I'm signing off.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I'm not trying to be a downer on Ottawa or anything because it's a great city for the specific kind of people it attracts. This thread devolving into talk about museums and their focus simply highlights the kind of people that Ottawa attracts in general - people who fit neatly into government positions, bureaucratic, socially passive.
Also basically the type of tourist Ottawa gets. Somebody who comes here for a meeting and stays a few extra days.

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All government cities are like this. Brasilia isn't the destination to visit in Brazil. Canberra isn't the destination to visit in Australia. Ottawa is no different.
Yep. Den Haag in Netherlands. Bern in Switzerland.

Sometimes the major city of the country is the capital (London, Paris, Madrid, Rome, Tokyo, etc.). But sometimes it isn't. And we are one of those countries where it's not. We're not even the second, third or fourth major city for the country. This will always create unique challenges.

What I complain about is how often Ottawa shoots itself in the foot, often trying to imitate Toronto or Montreal, instead of growing into its own as a nice 1.4M person metro. That would actually make the city more attractive to potential visitors. But the largest benefits would accrue to those of us who live here.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Nobody said the capital is not worth visiting. What was said is that it's not a sensible start point for any vacation to Canada or worth dedicating substantial time visiting. At best it's something you visit on the way between Toronto and Montreal. And this is literally the case for most tour companies.
Again you are missing the entire point. Whether you fly into Montreal and tour to Ottawa, or fly into Ottawa and tour to Montreal it's the exact same thing. But there aren't as many flight options into Ottawa to do the latter, which is the entire point of this thread.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:30 PM
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I mean someone calling Ottawa out for no longer having a downtown core movie theatre as a tourism draw is absurd. I've never once been on vacation and thought to myself, "maybe I'll go see Top Gun Maverick today".
People can be quite odd. For many, 'shopping' is a prime focus of a visit to another place. To me it ranks up there with listening to Nickelback or watching reality TV but to each their own. People also love to visit McDonalds or Costco in different places to see the differences.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:32 PM
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Sure, Escapade and Bluesfest might be equal to Toronto or Montreal's version (which in itself should be celebrated), but it's undeniably better than cities its own size in this aspect (notably Edmonton or Calgary).

I think the culture aspect is a bit difficult. In general, Canada doesn't have a necessarily strong brand or culture, most likely due to its age and it's melting pot of other cultures. You go to Italy, for the leather, fashion, pasta, espressos, etc.. Ottawa (and Canada as a whole), doesn't necessarily have that strong CANADIANA brand for people to experience.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:36 PM
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If you honestly believe Toronto is one of the best food cities in the world, and that Ottawa is even remotely comparable to Brasilia or Canberra then you've lost all credibility whatsoever and I'm signing off.
I don't think the point was that Brasilia or Canberra were necessarily comparable to Ottawa, or to each other. But rather than they occupy a spot within their respective countries that is similar to Ottawa's in Canada.
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  #98  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:41 PM
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Again you are missing the entire point. Whether you fly into Montreal and tour to Ottawa, or fly into Ottawa and tour to Montreal it's the exact same thing. But there aren't as many flight options into Ottawa to do the latter, which is the entire point of this thread.
Not really. First of all, you're far more likely to visit the city you land in.

Next, if Ottawa had the same demand as Montreal, there'd be a much more balanced distribution of flights between the two cities. So, if all these museums and festivals are so great, where is the tourist demand to bring all those airlines to YOW? Instead, Air France may be willing to put on a third or even fourth daily flight to Montreal, instead of considering even one daily to Ottawa.
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  #99  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:42 PM
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I don't think the point was that Brasilia or Canberra were necessarily comparable to Ottawa, or to each other. But rather than they occupy a spot within their respective countries that is similar to Ottawa's in Canada.
Strawmanning is his go to.....
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  #100  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2022, 5:43 PM
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--

It's a sidebar, but recently my partner was in the Middle East and spent about a month travelling around, primarily in Qatar and Saudi Arabia. Both of these countries are pushing their tourism industries hard to varying results. What you'll find in places like Qatar and the Arab Emirates is that local culture is...very sparse. The idea of culture in these places is simply to take the best things from other places and plant them into the Middle East. There's a famous restaurant in New York? Now it's in Dubai. There's a famous store in London? Now there's one in Qatar. It's the idea that culture can be bought and supplied and moved from one place to another as if it's equivalent. You can see this in, like, Las Vegas building an Eiffel Tower or something. It's not exactly the same thing no matter how similar it may be.
And obviously this is a game that Ottawa (nor any place in Canada, really) is nowhere near having the means to play.


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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
I bring this up because I see this sort of attitude at times in Ottawa. Maybe we should have a waterpark because they're popular elsewhere. Maybe we should have an aquarium because they're popular elsewhere. That's not a solution, you're merely replicating other places. What makes your city and region unique? That's what you build upon. Build that character and uniqueness and people will show up for it eventually.

I bring this up often to people in the Maritimes when they get excited about new franchise chains opening up. It's not unique or exciting or really noteworthy. Just supplanting local culture with franchise culture from elsewhere. Yawn.
Some years ago we were travelling as a family and as we are the ice hotel in Quebec City one of my kids made this very observation: that Ottawa basically copied cool stuff from other cities, from Winterlude to a château-like hotel downtown to the waterpark to Bluesfest - which is when you think about it copying the ethos pioneered by the Montreal Jazz Festival by going beyond the definition of a single musical genre.
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