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  #261  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2009, 8:46 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
The best part about this is that I never mentioned anything you just talked about anywhere in my post, so your snarky sarcasm doesn't work at all while mine does.
Hmm, you suggested sports fields get renamed without the brand name and image being tarnished; then I suggested that the ones with strong brand names and images would clearly be tarnished. Then you reply with something vague (and again snarky) that neither addresses my point nor backs up your original point. Either address it or take those two fizzled snarks back to a shelter or a loving home.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Well if the name doesn't take, then why does changing the official name matter at all?
Because, the (new) name doesn't take.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
the name recognition isn't very strong outside of the Midwest area.
...
Sears Tower has relatively low national recognition and almost no global recognition.
Seems we are starting off with different assumptions here. I believe Sears Tower has enough name recognition throughout the country and the world that it's worth preserving. Not a huge amount -- but to the extent, say, a college-educated person in Europe or elsewhere is aware about big cities or landmarks in the US, I believe there is some name recognition -- and most relevantly I believe it's worth trying to preserve. Maybe as a twenty-something you haven't had sufficient opportunity to observe all this. This is not a crime or inadequacy; there is a magnificent world of knowledge out there and no one can gain more than one handful at at time.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
My point is this, Sears tower is a 100% privately owned building, they have every right to change the name and nothing a bunch of NIMBY's say should be allowed to stop that. The argument that we can't change a name because the name has always been that way is the same as saying "we can't build a modern building here because all the other buildings have always been in "ye olde style"". You have no right to determine what they do with their land and whenever the public is given a right to manipulate private property horrible things result.
...
PUBLICLY owned buildings and places are the only places that the public should be able to name. And if the public wants to sell the naming rights (think Millenium Park's variety of sponsorships) so they can afford a better public place, then so be it.
I see now that you have been stuck looking at this issue through the lens of rights - who has the right to rename a building. That's not what I or other people here are discussing. We're just discussing what's desirable. After all, that's a big part of what SSP is all about - geeks trying to argue for one color of paint or another, or modernism over faux French revival style, etc. It's fun & educational. Then, once in a while, once the arguments have been leavened, they might actually be taken to a decisionmaker to try to persuade her or him.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
do you really think that permanence and continuity are the essence of civilization? Last time I checked human civilization has been marked by constant change and evolution, especially the last 150 years. So I guess these forces of "permanence and continuity" are what caused radical modern buildings like Sears to be constructed? I guess the permanence of the empty swamp that was once where the Sears stands now is what caused such a building to exist? That is absurd, the entire philosophy behind modern architecture like the Sears is the rejection of the past and acceptance of radical change.
You're reading way too much into my comment -- as though it is some manifesto to pervade every corner of civic life. From the sentence's context, it should be clear I'm talking about the permanence and continuity of established, widely-cherished names, institutions, etc. Thus, NYC will not likely rename Times Square in the foreseeable future; thus we mourn Marshall Field's passing into Macy's; thus, the Eiffel Tower will not become Citroen Tower; etc. And those are just geographical names. What about the colors of the national flag or the logo of the de facto national drink (Coca-Cola) or the names of the biggest national sporting events (Super Bowl, World Series). There are certain core things that define a nation or a culture, so the majority of people generally desire that those stay unchanged. If they do change, we certainly make the most of it but we also feel a part of us is gone. Beyond those, though, change and progress, in styles or language or technology etc., are, as you suggest, hallmarks of and essential to civilization. But even those change and flourish as they do in large part only because there remains a certain core bedrock or anchor that doesn't change or changes only very slowly.
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  #262  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2009, 2:44 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Well I said I wasn't going to respond, but I can't help but make two comments.

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Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
Hmm, you suggested sports fields get renamed without the brand name and image being tarnished; then I suggested that the ones with strong brand names and images would clearly be tarnished.
Well there you go, I didn't talk about anything you started talking about. I was talking about examples that have occurred, not hypothetical fantasies you made up in your mind about Wrigley field or somewhere else losing all credibility as a sports stadium because the owners no longer call it Wrigley. You never once provided an example of a name change happening and actually tarnishing the image or brand of a baseball team. In fact, after Comisky was demolished and replaced with US Cellular field, didn't the White Sox brand take off, even winning the World Series (not saying they won because of it, but their popularity and attendance rose despite the fact there was a name change)?

Quote:
Because, the (new) name doesn't take.
Ok, if the new name doesn't take, then why does it matter? Don't you realize its circular arguementation to answer the question "If the name doesn't take then why does it matter?" with "because the name doesn't take"... I thought that most people learned in grade school that you can't answer a question with the subject of the question...

Last edited by Nowhereman1280; Jun 1, 2009 at 3:38 PM.
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  #263  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2009, 5:06 PM
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Bottom line, Change is hard. If your used to something being one way for 30+ years its hard to accept a new way of looking at something. It took me a while to realize that it is STILL a great building and always will be regardless of a name. I have a feeling after it is all said and done, many people will also realize this (although I'm sure there will still be a stubborn few who will "fight the good fight"). As I said before, it will always be remembered as the great Sears to me and many others, and the building wont warp into London's Gherkin just because it has a new name!
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  #264  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2009, 5:36 AM
denizen467 denizen467 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
I was talking about examples that have occurred, not hypothetical fantasies you made up in your mind about Wrigley field or somewhere else losing all credibility as a sports stadium because the owners no longer call it Wrigley. You never once provided an example of a name change happening and actually tarnishing the image or brand of a baseball team. In fact, after Comisky was demolished and replaced with US Cellular field, didn't the White Sox brand take off, even winning the World Series (not saying they won because of it, but their popularity and attendance rose despite the fact there was a name change)?
I guess I should have added past examples too, but I felt the broad principle is well illustrated by the very widely-known and very recent stadium naming discussions I mentioned. But stadium analogies can pose a problem since the underlying product continues to change, and often improve, regardless of whether the name changes, while buildings change little if at all once built.

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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Ok, if the new name doesn't take, then why does it matter? Don't you realize its circular arguementation to answer the question "If the name doesn't take then why does it matter?" with "because the name doesn't take"... I thought that most people learned in grade school that you can't answer a question with the subject of the question...
The circularity was intentional, since you were answering your own question. I will re-do it fully: The new name (Willis Tower) doesn't take hold (because the tower is no longer #1 so people don't care nearly as much), so you keep the original name (Sears Tower) because that name has widely been known (for decades while it was #1) as being associated with supremacy, so you get a free ride off your laurels.

I have bored myself now and probably everyone else.

The neat thing is, we can just wait several years and see how it all actually turns out.
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  #265  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2009, 6:09 AM
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Well I remember there initially being worry that the "Ledge" would uglify the look of the tower, even from a distance. But taking a look at the May 4 press release on theskydeck.com, the "retractable" nature of the new window bays helps assuage those concerns a little bit: There will be no structurally permanent protrusion. However, it conceivably could end up being the case that they'll remain extended outwards 99% of the time, retracting only for cleaning purposes.
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  #266  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2009, 5:44 PM
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^ But imagine the sensation of being suspended about a quarter-mile above Wacker with seemingly nothing between you and the street - then imagine all of those tourists' stomachs, filled-to-bursting with Italian Beef Sandwhiches and Deep Dish and neon-green Dog Relish. Factor in the visceral gastro-intenstinal fear response, and I'm guessing that the cleaning will be an all-but daily occurance.
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  #267  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2009, 3:50 AM
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I still think that a couple transparent boxes are going to be awfully hard to notice at 1450' distance. And I don't buy the argument that its going to "obstruct our view straight up the only continuously vertical face of the building" that somebody made a while ago seeing as how the lobby makes it impossible to see straight up the side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denizen467 View Post
The circularity was intentional, since you were answering your own question. I will re-do it fully: The new name (Willis Tower) doesn't take hold (because the tower is no longer #1 so people don't care nearly as much), so you keep the original name (Sears Tower) because that name has widely been known (for decades while it was #1) as being associated with supremacy, so you get a free ride off your laurels.
Or you just change the name, get the money (or more tenants), and people still call it Sears and no one cares. What you just said wasn't an argument, it was two statements. You just said 1 You can change the name or 2 you can not change the name... I don't get it...

I don't think the name will take hold either, but that's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that they should be allowed to do whatever they want and that the owners simply calling it something different will not change the nature of the building or have any other effect than giving the RedEye something to report on/bitch about a couple times...
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  #268  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2009, 10:01 PM
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http://www.suntimes.com/news/politic...side05.article

Sears Tower designer singled out

June 5, 2009

In his address to the Muslim world Thursday, President Obama said "American Muslims have enriched the United States."

One of the accomplishments he listed was that an American Muslim "built our tallest building."


During his address to the Muslim world, President Obama listed Fazlur Rahman Khan (inset), who designed the Sears Tower, as one of the the accomplishments by "American Muslims that have enriched the United States." (Brian Jackson/Sun-Times)

He was referring to Fazlur Rahman Khan, the visionary -- and legendary -- structural engineer who designed the 110-story Sears Tower, which featured Kahn's innovative "bundled tube" design.

Born in Dhaka, Bengal, in 1929, Khan graduated from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. He joined the firm Skidmore, Owings and Merrill in 1955, made partner there in 1966 and became a U.S. citizen a year later.

In addition to his work with architect Bruce Graham on the Sears Tower, Chicago can also thank Khan, who died in 1982, for his design of the 100-story John Hancock Center.

In 1998, Chicago honored Kahn with an honorary street name. Bangladesh put him on a stamp.
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  #269  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2009, 2:12 AM
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^ I picked up on that too, BVic - thanks for posting.
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  #270  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2009, 3:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280 View Post
Or you just change the name, get the money (or more tenants), and people still call it Sears and no one cares.
I don't think the name will take hold either, but that's not what I'm arguing, I'm arguing that they should be allowed to do whatever they want and that the owners simply calling it something different will not change the nature of the building or have any other effect than giving the RedEye something to report on/bitch about a couple times...
Nice to see that you admitted what I suspected (or at least hoped)! I was shocked though when I read this week that Willis only leased 140,000 square feet in the Sears Tower. After all of the ranting, I was expecting to see that they leased a substantial portion of that world landmark, not the fairly mere pittance that they did. Granted that we're in hard times, but the size of their lease wouldn't normally have been a big deal in my semi-little San Francisco, much less in Chicago! Give me a break--not only did the owners of the Sears Tower agree to change the name of an iconic identity, but they also prostituted themselves and Chicago in the process. The fact that they have the right to do so is not and was not my issue.
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  #271  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2009, 11:01 PM
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Willis CEO: Sears Tower Name Change Mishandled

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...36,print.story

-----
Outspoken CEO Joe Plumeri concedes Sears Tower name change could have been handled better
By Becky Yerak
Tribune reporter
June 7, 2009

.....The Willis Tower dedication is slated for July, and Willis' 500 Chicago-area workers will move into newly renovated offices occupying most of the tower's 18th, 19th, and 20th floors by summer's end. They're currently scattered in five area offices.

Now publicly traded, Willis asked for and received $3.8 million in tax-increment financing from the city to redevelop the Sears Tower space.

"It's going to cost us about $17 million," said Plumeri. "We're bringing jobs into the city, and hopefully in the next couple of years it'll be 600, 700 jobs because we expect our business to grow rather strongly in the next three years."

Willis will consider spending money on marketing to help the Willis Tower name stick, but Plumeri knows it will take time.

"They can call it whatever they want, even 'The Big Willie,' " said Plumeri, who turns 66 next month. "All I know is that the day we announced that this building would be named Willis Tower, everybody in America knew who Willis was".....
-----

Continue reading at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...36,print.story

I vote for Big Willie
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  #272  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2009, 12:49 AM
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I still don't know who Willis is, suffice that they own the Sears Tower.
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  #273  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2009, 2:35 AM
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Originally Posted by wrabbit View Post
http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...36,print.story

-----
Outspoken CEO Joe Plumeri concedes Sears Tower name change could have been handled better


"They can call it whatever they want, even 'The Big Willie,' " said Plumeri, who turns 66 next month. "All I know is that the day we announced that this building would be named Willis Tower, everybody in America knew who Willis was".....
-----

Continue reading at: http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...36,print.story

I vote for Big Willie

Plumeri's going to get his wish. From
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=166312

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Big John
Big Willie
Big Trumpy (sounds lame but eh)

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Sure, why not. Big John, Big Willie, The Donald(Big Wig?), the Big A...
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  #274  
Old Posted Jun 8, 2009, 9:21 AM
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HAHAHAHA Big Wig!!! Thats hilarious!!!
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  #275  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Sears Tower To Get An Eco-Friendly Facelift

New Green Hotel Also To Be Constructed
CHICAGO (CBS) ―


The Sears Tower -- soon to be renamed the Willis Tower – will undergo a $350 million green remodeling effort at the 110-story skyscraper, including wind turbines, green roofs and solar panels.

Owners and architects said Wednesday that the plan will reduce electricity use in the building by 80 percent and save 24 million gallons of water a year.

Plans also include construction of a 50-story, 500-room luxury hotel next door. The hotel will be constructed at Wacker Drive and Jackson Boulevard, and will be designed by Adrian Smith, who was also chief designer of the recently finished Trump International Hotel & Tower....
http://cbs2chicago.com/local/sears.t...2.1057919.html
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  #276  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 6:15 PM
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...0,187802.story

Sears Tower owners looking to put 'green' hotel next door
By Becky Yerak and Sara Olkon | Tribune staff reporter
11:10 AM CDT, June 24, 2009


Sears Tower in March 2008 (Scott Olsen/Getty Images)

The owners of Sears Tower will build an environmentally friendly hotel next to the skyscraper, which is also going green.

A hotel will be built at Wacker Drive and Jackson Boulevard, said John Huston of American Landmark Properties, representing the partnership that owns Sears Tower.

The hotel will be designed by architect Adrian Smith, chief designer of the recently-completed Trump International Hotel & Tower, the tallest American skyscraper since the Sears Tower.

Financed by private funds, the hotel will draw "net zero energy from the power grid" Huston said.



The hotel plans coincide with new measures to make Sears Tower an energy efficient building. That might entail green roofs, including putting grass, shrubs and perhaps even trees on the building's roof, as well and changes to the building's mechanical systems to save energy, according to a news advisory sent out Tuesday morning by Smith and Gordon Gill Architecture.

The green steps "will reestablish Sears Tower as a pioneer" Huston said today.

The building is likely to be shooting for LEED certification, the architecture firm said. LEED stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design. LEED certification is granted by the U.S. Green Building Council, based in Washington, D.C.

Sears would likely be the tallest existing building in the world to get LEED status, the firm said.
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  #277  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 6:34 PM
Nowhereman1280 Nowhereman1280 is offline
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Important excerpt from the article:

"Im March, the paper also reported that the owners were considering changing the tower's color from black to silver as part of the push for environmental friendliness.

Huston said the idea was considered along with many others, but a color change is not planned."
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  #278  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 7:04 PM
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^^^^
I saw that...My worry is that the new windows will be more reflective and less iodized black...
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  #279  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 7:29 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_220257.html

Sears Tower Getting $350M Green Overhaul, New Hotel

First Posted: 06-24-09 01:47 PM | Updated: 06-24-09 01:51 PM


CHICAGO (AP) -- The Sears Tower will undergo a $350 million green remodeling effort at the 110-story skyscraper, including wind turbines, green roofs and solar panels.

Owners and architects said Wednesday that the plan will reduce electricity use in the building by 80 percent and save 24 million gallons of water a year.

Plans also include construction of a 50-story, 500-room luxury hotel next door.

Building officials say the project should take five years to complete and create 3,600 jobs.

The famous skyscraper is to be renamed Willis Tower later this summer. Officials say they'd like to achieve "LEED" status, otherwise known as Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design.

It's a standard monitored by the U.S. Green Building Council.
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  #280  
Old Posted Jun 24, 2009, 7:30 PM
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what a travesty to see this happen.
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