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  #35101  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:14 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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yea its true bodegas are suffering too. i still love the fact i can get a perfectly made $3 egg sandwhich in under 5 minutes at one as im running to work.

i dont know what the solution is either, it has to be a cultural shift that demands it. and as we've seen with the massive influx of restaurants, people are far more interested in eating out today rather than they are cooking for themselves. as someone who loves cooking though and hates paying marianos/WF prices and dealing with big box chains in general, i try to support the independent grocery stores where i can, and i tailor a lot of my cooking to where i happen to living. im near argyle now, so ive really delved into thai and asian cooking in general and used it as an excuse to expand my palette.

but how we get more true 24 hr produce options in the city, and at a small local level, i havent a clue. we've destroyed so many possibilities for that. i feel like so many of these CTA owned properties under L stops would be perfect for stuff like that, but it always just seems to become a Dunkin Donuts or whatever

as far as markets like Fulton, i think the ship has basically sailed. everything is moving towards big, non public access, type facilities such as what we've seen with the Chicago Produce Market in Little Village. i wish there was more thought given to these designs, and that they had public retail integrated in a street friendly way. but i guess they dont want to be dodging pedestrians with 18 wheelers either. its just sad that weve become so far removed from these sorts of institutions that otherwise used to be pretty well integrated into urban life.
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  #35102  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:16 PM
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ithakas ithakas is offline
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
Id love to have something comparable to some of the toronto markets


it seems like Fulton would have been our best opportunity for that, but its hard to make happen when the market itself physically disappears and is replaced by luxury hotels and Banana Republics..
Our roads always feel too wide for this kind of thing. One of the disadvantages of being centrally located and meticulously planned is that even in really vibrant areas we don't get those chaotic corridors.

I could see something like this taking shape in the Kinzie Corridor west of Ashland, if the nature of PMDs continues to change...

Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Oct 13, 2016 at 6:00 PM. Reason: unsourced images
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  #35103  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:23 PM
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Our roads always feel too wide for this kind of thing. One of the disadvantages of being centrally located and meticulously planned is that even in really vibrant areas we don't get those chaotic corridors.

I could see something like this taking shape in the Kinzie Corridor west of Ashland, if the nature of PMDs continues to change...
again i think the irony is fulton was perfectly suited to this. yea its wide, but with the boulevard and all the intact suppliers lining it, it seemed like a pretty good candidate to create a walkable, outdoor shopping experience.

to bring up arglye again, it seems like with the new shared street, i had hoped it might push it a little bit more in this direction. but i doubt it. the markets there are still more or less standard grocery stores with dedicated parking.
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  #35104  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:24 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Originally Posted by ithakas View Post
Our roads always feel too wide for this kind of thing. One of the disadvantages of being centrally located and meticulously planned is that even in really vibrant areas we don't get those chaotic corridors.

I could see something like this taking shape in the Kinzie Corridor west of Ashland, if the nature of PMDs continues to change...
I don't know, look at the street view I show above from my gf's Queens neighborhood. The streets are pretty much the same width as what you'd find around Chicago. Think of Lakeview when you look at this for example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7661...7i13312!8i6656
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  #35105  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:27 PM
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there seems to be more of an ingrained cultural appreciation or even expectation, of outdoor commerce in general in NY. i mean even at the lowest level with dudes selling bootleg DVDs and essential oils under the tracks in Bed Stuy...its still cohesive and vibrant.

why that never translated to Chicago, I really cant say. or, ya know, we actually did have it and we actively destroyed it...

Last edited by Tom In Chicago; Oct 13, 2016 at 6:00 PM. Reason: unsourced image
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  #35106  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:32 PM
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ardecila ardecila is online now
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Retail, grocery, etc exists in a totally different ecosystem that it did 100 years ago. Urban planning decisions can't change the fact that Americans are now accustomed to spending a smaller percentage of income on food than any other country on Earth. Food has largely been replaced with more expensive housing in the average household budget, and some first-world costs like smartphone and Netflix service. For people to return to these more fine-grained distribution networks means spending more on food, which in turn means spending less on other things.

I also think we shouldn't romanticize the food available to our c.1900 ancestors. You wouldn't get fresh produce in winter at all, you'd either be eating potatoes or maybe canned fruits/veg. People, even in the city, spent much of their summer and fall canning, pickling, preserving this stuff so they would have a vaguely nutritious diet in wintertime. The modern system has its problems but on the whole it allows for much better nutrition, at a lower cost, to more people than ever before in history.

When you see curb markets in places like Toronto, Philly, Atlanta, etc, they are not vital parts of the city anymore but mainly tourist attractions. Real people with real budgets will shop at cheaper places (i.e. supermarkets) for the majority of their needs. That's in part why the "food desert" problem exists - poor, usually black residents will gladly travel outside their neighborhood to a supermarket to stretch their dollar further, rather than shopping at a (hypothetical) more expensive small store that is nearby. Unfortunately, those smaller stores are exactly the kinds of businesses that would take risks on low-income neighborhoods. You end up in this catch-22 situation.

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but how we get more true 24 hr produce options in the city, and at a small local level, i havent a clue. we've destroyed so many possibilities for that. i feel like so many of these CTA owned properties under L stops would be perfect for stuff like that, but it always just seems to become a Dunkin Donuts or whatever
CTA stalls are often too small or difficult to make work. Somehow Dunkin Donuts is an amazingly flexible concept that doesn't require black iron ventilation, the core products they sell (coffee and baked goods) require almost no special equipment and are ideally suited for commuters. Rather than being disappointed to see them in a CTA station, I'm often amazed that they manage to build a successful business in an utterly dogshit space.

Actually, though, CTA has absolutely tried to encourage local entrepreneurship. Jumping Bean is opening in the Damen (Pink) station, and local/entrpreneurial businesses have opened up at Jefferson Park, Jackson, Ashland/63rd, etc. Unfortunately, most small businesses fail and the ones in CTA stations are no exception. It doesn't surprise me that CTA often defaults to chains which represent a stable source of income and a relatively easy way to get rid of the constant complaints from neighbors and alderman about vacant storefronts.
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Last edited by ardecila; Oct 13, 2016 at 5:49 PM.
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  #35107  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 5:45 PM
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I agree that curb markets like Kensington are currently mostly tourist traps, but the sort of thing that marothisu shared, i dont think is outside the bounds of what a vibrant city should be able to offer its residents.

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I also think we shouldn't romanticize the food available to our c.1900 ancestors. You wouldn't get fresh produce in winter at all, you'd either be eating potatoes or maybe canned fruits/veg. People, even in the city, spent much of their summer and fall canning, pickling, preserving this stuff so they would have a vaguely nutritious diet in wintertime. The modern system has its problems but on the whole it allows for much better nutrition, at a lower cost, to more people than ever before in history.
well this is a whole other discussion, but i dont think it would be such a bad thing to eat more in season where possible. the environmental costs to what you describe are astronomical, and the food itself usually tastes like garbage when its shipped halfway across the globe anyway. a winter tomato has practically zero nutritional value, or taste for that matter. and i think this is esp true of things like seafood, which we are precariously close to wiping out entirely.
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  #35108  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 6:02 PM
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[MODERATOR NOTE] Please refrain from posting photos that are not related to the topic at hand. . . if you need to draw a comparison then post a hyper-link but keep the discussion related to Chicago - General Developments. . . also any unsourced images will be removed. . . thanks for your cooperation. . .

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  #35109  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 6:43 PM
Ryanrule Ryanrule is offline
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there seems to be more of an ingrained cultural appreciation or even expectation, of outdoor commerce in general in NY. i mean even at the lowest level with dudes selling bootleg DVDs and essential oils under the tracks in Bed Stuy...its still cohesive and vibrant.

why that never translated to Chicago, I really cant say. or, ya know, we actually did have it and we actively destroyed it...
Chicago is not a port city that has such goods "falling" off ships and such.
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  #35110  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 6:52 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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Chicago is not a port city that has such goods "falling" off ships and such.
Ever hear of airplanes?
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  #35111  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 6:56 PM
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I agree that curb markets like Kensington are currently mostly tourist traps, but the sort of thing that marothisu shared, i dont think is outside the bounds of what a vibrant city should be able to offer its residents.



well this is a whole other discussion, but i dont think it would be such a bad thing to eat more in season where possible. the environmental costs to what you describe are astronomical, and the food itself usually tastes like garbage when its shipped halfway across the globe anyway. a winter tomato has practically zero nutritional value, or taste for that matter. and i think this is esp true of things like seafood, which we are precariously close to wiping out entirely.
It's a whole other discussion, true, but it's at the heart of why we don't have little greengrocers on every corner in our fair city. Chicago is in the United States, and the United States no longer works that way outside of New York and certain ethnic neighborhoods elsewhere.

I do think there is a value, in a large city like Chicago, to open up the city's vast food distribution networks to the public in some way. That was always the allure of Fulton Market for foodies, and it only worked because of concentration - few consumers would go to Isaacson & Stein to buy fish if it was located in a Cicero industrial park.

I also appreciate that I can go to Peoria Packing, or (on the higher end) Paulina Market and get hand-made cuts of meat that you just won't find in a supermarket.
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  #35112  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 7:04 PM
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The shift in grocery shopping occurred much more recently than the end of the 19 century.
For my parents, children of the 20s, even the big chain grocery stores were basically bodegas. You still went separately to butchers and bakeries and green grocers.

When I was a kid in the 60s, what we would call a supermarket, your Jewel/National/Kroger was about the same as the Aldi model is today. They carried most of your staples without a lot of choice, You still went to bakery and a deli if you wanted to make a good corned beef sandwich. The idea of a store with 30 linear feet dedicated to different ketchups was completely foreign. I never saw one of these til the mid 70s when I was getting out of high school. But locally sourced, seasonal vegetables were still simply a fact of life. There was a time for asparagus and a time for apples and in the winter you ate a lot of cabbage and root vegetables.

In the ensuing years it rollercoastered to what we have now. International shipping made seasons moot while competition and economies of scale brought prices down so low that today the bodega of my parents era would be accused of price gouging.

The worst part is that we have become so spoiled by it, that I don't know if we could go back
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  #35113  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 8:47 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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The shift in grocery shopping occurred much more recently than the end of the 19 century.
For my parents, children of the 20s, even the big chain grocery stores were basically bodegas. You still went separately to butchers and bakeries and green grocers.

When I was a kid in the 60s, what we would call a supermarket, your Jewel/National/Kroger was about the same as the Aldi model is today. They carried most of your staples without a lot of choice, You still went to bakery and a deli if you wanted to make a good corned beef sandwich. The idea of a store with 30 linear feet dedicated to different ketchups was completely foreign. I never saw one of these til the mid 70s when I was getting out of high school. But locally sourced, seasonal vegetables were still simply a fact of life. There was a time for asparagus and a time for apples and in the winter you ate a lot of cabbage and root vegetables.

In the ensuing years it rollercoastered to what we have now. International shipping made seasons moot while competition and economies of scale brought prices down so low that today the bodega of my parents era would be accused of price gouging.

The worst part is that we have become so spoiled by it, that I don't know if we could go back
All great points. The prices that these small stores would need to charge just won't be acceptable to the Walmart world we live in. Personally, I would be happy to pay more, but after having been around as long as I have, that just won't work for the vast majority of consumers. Americans love cheap shit.
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  #35114  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 9:08 PM
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except almost universally, cheaper prices can be had at small independent grocery stores compared to big regional chains. just taking herbs as an example, but i pay $3 for a massive bag of basil at the Asian market. maybe close to 1/2 lb? at the regular supermarket, you will easily pay $2 for one of those tiny little single serve plastic containers that barely contains enough to use as a garnish. ditto for really any produce. ever compared the price of an avocado at marianos ($2.80 EACH) compared with any small mom and pop Mexican market? its highway robbery.
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  #35115  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 9:47 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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except almost universally, cheaper prices can be had at small independent grocery stores compared to big regional chains. just taking herbs as an example, but i pay $3 for a massive bag of basil at the Asian market. maybe close to 1/2 lb? at the regular supermarket, you will easily pay $2 for one of those tiny little single serve plastic containers that barely contains enough to use as a garnish. ditto for really any produce. ever compared the price of an avocado at marianos ($2.80 EACH) compared with any small mom and pop Mexican market? its highway robbery.
I agree for produce that seems to be true to a point. Certainly stores like Edgewater Produce, Cermak, Stanleys, asian shops, etc. have amazing produce prices and quality. We buy our produce almost exclusively from those stores (and farmers markets when in season). We also exclusively buy our meat from Holzkopf, Gene's, Paulian, etc, because most meat is repulsive at the biggies and even the small shops. And most other items are cheaper at Jewel, etc.

But we were talking about little bodega type establishments on street corners. Not sure they could survive here or the vast majority of the country.
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  #35116  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 11:04 PM
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Guys there is a Chicago General Discussion thread in the Midwest sub forum.

Maybe continue this there?
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  #35117  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2016, 12:26 AM
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111 East Cermak

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Has there been any movement (permits, site clearing, etc) for McHugh's planned hotel at 111 E Cermak?
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I think there was a data center wrapped up in that which pulled out and it floundered some
October 13, 2016



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  #35118  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2016, 4:43 PM
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yeah pretty sure that part bailed out on the thing, so maybe they are redoing the maths
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  #35119  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2016, 11:58 PM
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So my girlfriend's parents are in the US right now - visiting from Shanghai. They've only been to the US once before and it was to NYC, Los Angeles, Honolulu, DC, and Baltimore. This time it was San Francisco, Vegas, Chicago, and NYC.

Apparently out of all of those cities they've been to so far, they've liked Chicago the most. They were not expecting it to be so nice, clean, and modern, especially downtown. They even went as far as comparing Chicago to Shanghai in these regards and said the Gold Coast reminded them of nice areas where a lot of decently well to do foreigners live. They were really shocked at how "cheap" Chicago is even downtown for a condo and her dad asked "why the hell would anybody choose San Francisco over this? San Francisco is too small." Pretty funny. We often talk about tear downs in Chicago though, and apparently the same thing happens in Shanghai. They have an issue with a lot of old buildings being torn down and new shiny ones replacing it, according to her dad at least.

We went on a bike ride from Oak Street beach up to around Argyle. They couldn't get over how big the lake was and how much it looked like an ocean. Her mom grew up on a coastal town in NE China semi near North Korea and even she thought it wasn't a lake. She actually inquired how much condos cost along the lake in areas like Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, and Lakeview and said she wanted to live there. Considering they bought my girlfriend a $300K condo in Shanghai that they rent out to an American ex-pat, I wouldn't doubt them buying something. They were also surprised that Chicago didn't have more foreign, wealthy Chinese investment - but could understand why since the city is a lot less known than it should be. Her dad went as far as saying that maybe it's a good thing wealthy Chinese haven't arrived in Chicago like in NYC because they usually push the prices of housing way up yet never live in the places they own, screwing over housing prices in some areas. Hah..

Anyway, it's good hearing stuff like this. They barely knew anything about the city other than what she had been telling them, and about the crime. They were really surprised, though they did share with me that on some Chinese travel page in the style of a wiki, it describes Chicago: "There is a city, a perfect metropolis of urbanity, modern and cleanliness" or something like that. She has told me many times before that Chinese people go to Chicago and end up loving it. They are telling all their friends in China that they should be visiting Chicago even moreso than cities like San Francisco. They also commented on how they thought downtown seemingly had a lot of Asian people LOL.


As a side note, I took them to a NE Chinese restaurant in Bridgeport. This is pretty risky since they grew up there and live in Shanghai. My girlfriend and I had this about a month ago and she told me it's the most authentic NE Chinese restaurant she's had in the US before. Her parents liked it a lot and said it was better than most places serving the same food even in Shanghai. One dish we had they said was more authentic than anything they've ever had in Shanghai..pretty amazing huh? Her dad tried to pay the place in Renminbi too instead of USD - that was hilarious.

Everytime stuff like this happens, I just wish more and more the city had better PR.
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Last edited by marothisu; Oct 15, 2016 at 12:10 AM.
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  #35120  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2016, 12:27 AM
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So my girlfriend's parents are in the US right now - visiting from Shanghai. They've only been to the US once before and it was to NYC, Los Angeles, Honolulu, DC, and Baltimore. This time it was San Francisco, Vegas, Chicago, and NYC.

Apparently out of all of those cities they've been to so far, they've liked Chicago the most. They were not expecting it to be so nice, clean, and modern, especially downtown. They even went as far as comparing Chicago to Shanghai in these regards and said the Gold Coast reminded them of nice areas where a lot of decently well to do foreigners live. They were really shocked at how "cheap" Chicago is even downtown for a condo and her dad asked "why the hell would anybody choose San Francisco over this? San Francisco is too small." Pretty funny. We often talk about tear downs in Chicago though, and apparently the same thing happens in Shanghai. They have an issue with a lot of old buildings being torn down and new shiny ones replacing it, according to her dad at least.

We went on a bike ride from Oak Street beach up to around Argyle. They couldn't get over how big the lake was and how much it looked like an ocean. Her mom grew up on a coastal town in NE China semi near North Korea and even she thought it wasn't a lake. She actually inquired how much condos cost along the lake in areas like Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, and Lakeview and said she wanted to live there. Anyway, it's good hearing stuff like this. They barely knew anything about the city other than what she had been telling them, and about the crime. They were really surprised, though they did share with me that on some Chinese travel page in the style of a wiki, it describes Chicago: "There is a city, a perfect metropolis of urbanity, modern and cleanliness" or something like that. She has told me many times before that Chinese people go to Chicago and end up loving it. They are telling all their friends in China that they should be visiting Chicago even moreso than cities like San Francisco. They also commented on how they thought downtown seemingly had a lot of Asian people LOL.


As a side note, I took them to a NE Chinese restaurant in Bridgeport. This is pretty risky since they grew up there and live in Shanghai. My girlfriend and I had this about a month ago and she told me it's the most authentic NE Chinese restaurant she's had in the US before. Her parents liked it a lot and said it was better than most places serving the same food even in Shanghai. One dish we had they said was more authentic than anything they've ever had in Shanghai..pretty amazing huh? Her dad tried to pay the place in Renminbi too instead of USD - that was hilarious.

Everytime stuff like this happens, I just wish more and more the city had better PR.
Good to hear. Was that restaurant Home Style Taste by any chance?
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