Portland Transit | TriMet/Mass Transit News

[dubu]

a lot more people would ride it if it went to portland or close to it, people from woodburn and wilsonvill would ride the train to portland.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I used to commute to Salem. It really, really sucked. Having a train go from somewhere near Portland to Salem would have made it just a little less awful. I would have gladly left my car in Beaverton and taken the train the rest of the way. So I don't agree that it's critical to have a train from Portland, specifically, to Salem. There would probably be a shit-ton of people who would drive to Wilsonville and take the train from there. At least they wouldn't be driving the rest of the way.

One of the big problems is that it just wouldn't get anywhere close to decent ridership by serving Beaverton. Sure, they have a transit center, but forcing people to transfer from Portland and Gresham is insane. You can drive from Portland to Salem in 45 minutes. From downtown Portland to Beaverton is ~25 minutes by MAX, and a WES ride to Salem will probably run at least an hour. Its just going to miss the ridership boat by many miles.

a lot more people would ride it if it went to portland or close to it, people from woodburn and wilsonvill would ride the train to portland.

Bingo.

Most successful commuter rail lines are designed such:
City -> suburb
or: City -> city
or: City -> suburb -> city with no transfer.
Transfers just kill mass transit. And downtown Portland is far and away the largest transit market in Oregon, to not serve that would be ridiculous! Noone on the eastside would ride it by choice.

Trimet has screwed up a lot of the MAX lines by adding too many stops, extra loops, long headways, elimination of the FRZ, and street running that has drastically lowered ridership. Ridership % has been static for roughly the past 20 years - they need to carefully plan future lines so that they actually work and have high ridership, or its just not worth the money.

Seattle is getting ~10k commuters riding their Sounder service, but it actually goes to downtown Seattle and stretches 82 miles. I doubt that a Salem -> Beaverton commuter rail line would get anywhere close to those numbers.

[zilfondel]

In response to the commuter rail talk, the Amtrak Cascades service is actually partially filling that role right now:

http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no...rity_amon.html

After an especially taxing day at his corporate communications job in downtown Portland, Dan Anderson was looking forward to the evening train commute to Oregon City.

Actually, this isn't TriMet. Anderson is part of a small but growing group of Clackamas County commuters spurning the region's transit agency in favor of Amtrak for daily trips in and out of the city.

Last year, daily ridership between Salem and Portland on Amtrak jumped more than 22 percent to 24,146 boardings, making it the rail carrier's fastest growing West Coast corridor. The number of monthly passes on the line, meanwhile, increased by 14 percent.

Unfortunately, they don't have nearly enough service coverage or at the right times to properly act as a viable service for most people. You can also argue that an Amtrak Cascades train is a massive overkill for a 50-60 minute commuter train ride. All you need are seats, bathrooms, and a coffee/snack machine.

I saw really cool commuter trains int he Netherlands that featured a special car for baby strollers and large bicycles - I think it would make a great fit for Oregon.
This page shows the Danish bike train cars:

http://oliveventures.com.sg/act/2011...-on-the-train/



And apparently Caltrains in SF and the MBTA in Boston does it as well:


photo from cityphile.com

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

I've also never heard any estimate of a BILLION dollars to re-do those tracks. I'm not saying it's impossible that it would be that much, I've just never heard any figure at all. Even if you just extrapolate from the $150 mil they spent to re-do 15 miles of rails x 45 miles = maybe $500 mil, and probably quite a bit less since there would be fewer crossings to rebuild south of Wilsonville. But if $1B is correct, it would probably be politically untenable. In fact, anything over $100m would probably be untenable given the political climate and the assumption on the part of many that WES is a failure.

Ok, you seem to be correct. After doing some googling, ODOT estimated the cost of an extension to Salem as: "Capital construction cost for the extension in 2008 dollars is estimated to be $327-$387 million"

Source: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/RAIL/docs...assessment.pdf

There is some more discussion over at portlandtransport.com, such as this article:
http://portlandtransport.com/archive...ture_of_c.html

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

This is an idiotic idea. We need more rail service between Portland and Salem, not Beaverton and Salem.

A billion percent THIS.

All too often, it seems like mass transit lines are determined by people who don't ride mass transit as their primary means of transportation. If people who are trying to commute from Portland to Salem have to make a transfer in Beaverton, the line will never see its true potential because that extra connection may be too much for people who already connect elsewhere en route to Beaverton.

MAX to Beaverton, Train to Salem = STUPID. People won't use it, especially if they had to bus their way to a MAX stop in the first place.

Train from Portland to Salem = simple and effective.

People will use the route IF it begins somewhere sensible in Portland and ends somewhere sensible in Salem. The route should begin in the transit mall downtown if at all possible. If not, it should begin at Union Station. Beginning anywhere else means setting the route up for failure.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

...anything over $100m would probably be untenable given the political climate and the assumption on the part of many that WES is a failure.

Is WES a failure?'
How much did it cost to build?
How much does it cost to run?
How many riders use it daily?
How much revenue does it generate?
Is it even breaking even?

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Is WES a failure?'
How much did it cost to build?
How much does it cost to run?
How many riders use it daily?
How much revenue does it generate?
Is it even breaking even?

According to virtually every commenter on OLive, it is - that's the crowd I was referring to.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by zilfondel

One of the big problems is that it just wouldn't get anywhere close to decent ridership by serving Beaverton. Sure, they have a transit center, but forcing people to transfer from Portland and Gresham is insane. You can drive from Portland to Salem in 45 minutes. From downtown Portland to Beaverton is ~25 minutes by MAX, and a WES ride to Salem will probably run at least an hour. Its just going to miss the ridership boat by many miles.

[...]

Trimet has screwed up a lot of the MAX lines by adding too many stops, extra loops, long headways, elimination of the FRZ, and street running that has drastically lowered ridership. Ridership % has been static for roughly the past 20 years - they need to carefully plan future lines so that they actually work and have high ridership, or its just not worth the money.

OK, first of all, I totally agree about the second part. Especially the part from Union Station to the Rose Quarter, jeezus that's slow. It's painful. But at least it looks like PMLR will have a lot of non-street running and few (if any?) sharp turns, so maybe they've seen the error of their ways.

But regarding your first point I guess I see extending WES to Salem a little differently from you: I see it as a way for people who work in Salem to avoid living there; in other words, it's for Portland (and Portland suburb) people to commute to Salem, not the other way around. And honestly I don't imagine they'll be taking transit the entire way; I see them driving to a WES station and then taking the train from there. So given that, it doesn't matter whether the train goes downtown - in fact, it's probably advantageous NOT to go downtown. And actually, given the reality that we've already got this line to Beaverton that we've spent $150m upgrading, along with UP's reluctance to allow passenger trains along its line to Union Station, I think extending the existing line is much more likely. Believe me, in an ideal world, I'd love to see commuter trains heading downtown from Salem, McMinnville, St Helens, Canby, Hood River even, all on glorious high-speed tracks, with a cool tunnel and huge shiny stations. Give me an RER de Portland! But it ain't happening yet.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

According to virtually every commenter on OLive, it is - that's the crowd I was referring to.

I assumed that's what you were referring to, but I'm actually asking... has WES been a success? How is it doing financially?

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

...I guess I see extending WES to Salem a little differently from you: I see it as a way for people who work in Salem to avoid living there; in other words, it's for Portland (and Portland suburb) people to commute to Salem, not the other way around.

Yes yes yes, I agree with this, but adding a connection in Beaverton (WES) is a poor idea that will limit the usefulness of the route for many potential commuters.

THIS WORKS:
Potland > Salem
Salem > Portland

THIS DOESN'T:
Portland > Beaverton < transfer > Beaverton > Salem
Salem > Beaverton < transfer > Beaverton > Portland

The forced transfer in Beaverton defeats the purpose of the route. It creates the ability to get from Portland to Salem, but it discourages anyone who has a car from taking mass transit instead even if the person lives within walking distance of a MAX stop. And if that person has to take a bus too? Forget about it. The route needs to be Portland to Salem, Salem to Portland.

[bvpcvm]

Well, I guess the question comes down at least partly to the breakdown of riders who would take transit to the train vs. the number who would just drive to a station. I think capturing both groups could be considered successful, since even by driving to a station you'd be NOT driving at least 40 miles.

There's another barrier to taking transit to the train, whether it's leaving from Portland or Beaverton and that's that it's still another hour on the train to Salem. So whether you have to take transit downtown first or to Beaverton first you're going to have a very long commute.

Moreover, not everyone lives in our beloved Portland. There are people who actually live out in (shudder) Beaverton and (double shudder) Hillsboro for whom going downtown to catch the train won't be an option. And to be completely prejudiced, the state employees I've met in Salem don't really strike me as urbanites.

Again, I'd love to have the train leave from Union Station, but I think there are a fair number of valid arguments for going from Beaverton instead.

Also, don't get me wrong, I'm not really trying to promote driving to transit - I'd prefer it if everyone took transit or their bike - but we live in 21st century America, where most people still live in suburbs, at least for now.

[bvpcvm]

OK, now that I've said all that, if we decide to spend the money to go all the way downtown, another option might be to run trains along the UP tracks, but have the terminal at OMSI rather than snaking through to Union Station - which is UP's big bottleneck.

[bvpcvm]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

THIS WORKS:
Potland > Salem
Salem > Portland

THIS DOESN'T:
Portland > Beaverton < transfer > Beaverton > Salem
Salem > Beaverton < transfer > Beaverton > Portland

What makes you say that "Portland > Salem" doesn't involve a transfer as well? If you live downtown and happen to work in Salem, then, yes. (Or obviously if you're coming into Portland) If you live even as far away as I do (NW), there would still be a transfer involved. And how many potential riders would you lose because they would be able to park at a station in the suburbs, but not at Union Station? Those people would just drive the whole way, 80 miles/day.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

What makes you say that "Portland > Salem" doesn't involve a transfer as well?

I'm talking about connecting a central Portland hub such as the transit mall to a central Salem transit hub. Yes, one would likely have to take a bus or light rail to get to the Portland hub. That's how mass transit systems work. But taking a bus or light rail to Beaverton to transfer only makes sense if you live on a direct route to Beaverton already, which means at least 2/3 of the entire metro would have to transfer at the Portland transit mall and then transfer AGAIN in Beaverton. People aren't going to do that. That's the entire reason why we have a transit mall in the first place.

It's also why WES isn't seeing strong ridership.

WES isn't really part of our system. It's an offshoot from Beaverton, which makes it inconvenient for anyone who isn't already near Beaverton. Let's say you're in SE Portland. Rather than hop a bus to the transit mall to reach WES, you have to hop a bus and then transfer to MAX to transfer to WES. It's inconvenient, which helps to explain why people aren't doing it.

WES is averaging fewer than 1,700 riders a day based on Trimet's January 2013 numbers. That's 850 people a day if each used WES for a round trip. And it cost over 160 million dollars to build? YIKES. That's what happens when you expect riders to add an additional transfer just to get to the main transit hub where they may have to transfer again. Most opt to not use the route at all.

If I recall correctly, the original estimates for WES were for 3400 riders per day by the year 2020. CLEARLY, that's not going to happen. They'll be lucky to get 2400 a day by then.

Portland is the logical hub for our regional transit because Portland is the main city in the metro and it is also the center of the metro. I can't believe I have to explain that. Beaverton is a suburb. Using Beaverton as a hub is only helpful for those on the west side of the metro assuming their bus even goes to the Beaverton hub.

To connect Portland and Salem, a forced transfer through Beaverton would make absolutely no sense. It looks good on paper as number crunchers connect the dots to save dollars, but in practice, it would make the route less usable. Just like WES.

We're 4 years into Trimet's 20 year commitment to run WES. I won't be surprised if WES does not live to see year 21.

It's not that the idea is bad. It's that an extra forced transfer in Beaverton is bad.

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

Is WES a failure?'
How much did it cost to build?
How much does it cost to run?
How many riders use it daily?
How much revenue does it generate?
Is it even breaking even?

Although I'm critical of it, I don't think the WES is a failure.

It was, however, done on the cheap... and without all-day long service, which includes double-tracking, it won't reach its full ridership potential. When I used to work in Tualatin, I would often work later than the last train, which was around 6pm. The service really should go at least until 7 or 7:30pm to be viable, and Portland also sees a lot of mid-day riders on the bus and MAX; WES does not offer service between 10am-3pm, which is horrible!

I assumed that's what you were referring to, but I'm actually asking... has WES been a success? How is it doing financially?

You probably don't want to know, they average $15 subsidy per ride... which is far, far higher than the MAX, which in 2012 was $1.67/ride.
It is too bad that it only gets less than 2,000 riders/day, but not surprising - and is the reason for the high per ride cost. If they had full trains, then it wouldnt be so bad. Don't forget, they have a full-time conductor on board in addition to the train engineer (driver).

virtually every commenter on OLive

Unfortunately (or, fortunately?), virtually every commenter on Olive is an ignorant douchebag. And not even representative of the public - I have never met anyone who uses their comments section! Too negative!

[zilfondel]

Originally Posted by bvpcvm

But regarding your first point I guess I see extending WES to Salem a little differently from you: I see it as a way for people who work in Salem to avoid living there; in other words, it's for Portland (and Portland suburb) people to commute to Salem, not the other way around. And honestly I don't imagine they'll be taking transit the entire way; I see them driving to a WES station and then taking the train from there. So given that, it doesn't matter whether the train goes downtown - in fact, it's probably advantageous NOT to go downtown. And actually, given the reality that we've already got this line to Beaverton that we've spent $150m upgrading, along with UP's reluctance to allow passenger trains along its line to Union Station, I think extending the existing line is much more likely. Believe me, in an ideal world, I'd love to see commuter trains heading downtown from Salem, McMinnville, St Helens, Canby, Hood River even, all on glorious high-speed tracks, with a cool tunnel and huge shiny stations. Give me an RER de Portland! But it ain't happening yet.

From what I've seen, most of the traffic is still heading TO Portland in the morning, although there are a lot of reverse-commute types. There are 79,000 jobs in downtown, rivaling the total # of jobs in the Salem metro area. Because of the primary importance of the cities that fall on the I-5 corridor, it just makes sense to reinforce that existing transportation spine with better rail service. We really should have good commuter rail (actually, just all day "regional rail" service, not peak hours only) that links Eugene, Salem, and Portland together with at least hourly departures. And these don't need fancy Amtrak trains either! 60mph service would be fine, if its frequent and on-time.

Moreover, not everyone lives in our beloved Portland. There are people who actually live out in (shudder) Beaverton and (double shudder) Hillsboro for whom going downtown to catch the train won't be an option. And to be completely prejudiced, the state employees I've met in Salem don't really strike me as urbanites.

Again, I'd love to have the train leave from Union Station, but I think there are a fair number of valid arguments for going from Beaverton instead.

I do think the suburbs should have service, however. I just think that you can't NOT serve downtown Portland, or else you're going to miss 80% of your potential ridership base. I have met MANY people who commute daily from Salem and points south into Portland; they tend to loathe the daily slog and have expressed interest in a commuter rail service, even if it was slightly slower than driving. Some of them also worked in Hillsboro - but few worked in Beaverton. Don't forget, we have a lot of high-tech and white collar jobs that people commute for; those are centered in 3 markets: Kruse Way & Downtown Portland for office jobs, and Hillsboro for high-tech. Beaverton isn't really an employment nexus like those are.

I think in an ideal world, our commute rail line would go from Downtown Portland, stop in Beaverton for westside MAX transfers, hit Tualatin, Wilsonville (another huge employment center), Woodburn, then Keizer & Salem. If you wanted to do it right and maximize ridership... otherwise, buses may be the better answer, although they will get stuck in traffic with Seattle-esque HOV lanes.

==========

I just don't think that the other towns around Portland have a very large # of commuters headed into the city to support a high capacity commuter rail system like in other cities. Portland just doesn't have the office market like Seattle, Austin, or even Denver (http://www.demographia.com/db-cbd2000.pdf - pg 10). In addition, city-wide mixed use infill development will actually act to disperse jobs around the city, which won't help peak-hour commuter rail.

It does make all-day MAX service and bus service more viable, as they run all day/into the night. And I think that the suburban areas of Portland could really use improved bus service - its been severly cut back over the past 5 years. PMLR, Barbur MAX, and Vancouver MAX will also be massive transit boosts, since those are heavily congested highway corridors with crappy transit service (well, maybe the 12 isn't that bad).

[2oh1]

I do think WES is a failure, for two reasons:

#1 - WES doesn't provide bang for the buck. We still don't have streetcars in the parts of SE Portland that people live in and none are in north Portland. We've seen all sorts of Trimet cutbacks, but somehow this line was worth over $160 million? Misplaced priorities. I'm not complaining about investing in mass transit. I just want the money spent wisely in hopes of successes spurring more mass transit investment. Wasted money is bad for those of us who are big believers in mass transit. WES is waste.

#2 - Because WES only links up to the rest of Trimet via a forced transfer in Beaverton, any future expansion of the line comes with a forced transfer in Beaverton, which means expanding WES won't solve the line's problems. There's a reason WES is falling well below Trimet's original estimates. It's even falling well below Trimet's scaled back estimates.

By not linking up WES to the rest of Trimet along the transit mall or at least near it, WES creates transit hassles rather than solving them. Most of Trimet's busses and light rail don't directly connect to WES.

WES would be a terrible way to link Portland with Salem. WES would be an even worse way to link anything east of Portland with Salem.

[bvpcvm]

BTW, they built WES through Washington County, because it was Washington County's project. Washington County came up with the idea, worked with the cities along the route, and then dumped it on TriMet. I doubt that we could have taken the money we got for WES and built anything - streetcars or whatever - in Portland.

[65MAX]

Yes, it's amazing how people conveniently forget that WES was a Washington County project, not Trimet or even Metro. They brought Trimet in as consultants, and operators, after the decision was already made to build it.

Also, if WES had 15 minute headways during rush hours and 30 minutes the rest of the day, it WOULD be successful. The problem is insufficient frequencies, not the route itself. It really should be light rail service, not commuter.

[dubu]

if wes was light rail it could be better then the green line. longer and not next to a freeway